Digital or analogue?

[Versha]

I'm curious to know your opinions on this subject. Which do you prefer a digital or analogue sound console? Which brands do you like and why?

Personally, I prefer digital boards for live mixing and the only consoles I'd spend any money on are the Yamaha boards. I've personally worked with the O1V96 and the M7CL and enjoyed both boards immensely even though the O1V96 can be rather complicated to work with.

That is not to say that analogue boards don't have their merit and overall I prefer A&H boards, but the Mackie firewire interface for recording is really convenient and the program it works with is pretty decent, however I've only gotten satisfactory response from a Mackie when working with a 100% Mackie system. So, thoughts?

 

[museav]

I'm curious to know your opinions on this subject. Which do you prefer a digital or analogue sound console? Which brands do you like and why?

It may sound trite, but I prefer whatever console best fits the particular situation. Digital versus analog and the manufacturer may be factors in a decision but they are only a couple of many potential factors and often tied to other considerations.

The difficulty with discussions like this is references. What are your references regarding consoles you've used, the related applications, budgets, your background and experience and so on? What are others' references and do they potentially differ, perhaps significantly so?

You are going to find people here who could not start to consider the equipment that others virtually have to use and vice versa. A gymnatorium, a community theater, a high school theater, a road house, the local bar/club, a Broadway house, a church, a national tour, an arena, your buddy's band and so on probably all need some type of mixer (and processors, speakers, amplifiers, etc.) but the users, needs and budgets are going to vary greatly. So what is the reference for this discussion?

 

[Versha]

My personal experience has been with a variety of systems/applications. the question is open ended, you're right. i've worked with systems in most of the applications you've stated with varying budgets from near unlimited to a very tight budget. the reference for this discussion would have to be that given you had all the money in the world to design your own system, what would you prefer when it comes to choosing which console you'd work with. while i agree that some of these questions are pertinent, i.e. budget and specific needs as well as the other equipment you would be using, overall when it comes to which mixer i want to use, i can make that decision in a vaccum because i know what works well for almost every situation and what i prefer. i've used most brands of mixers from berhinger to peavey and out of the brands i've used i've given the ones i like. these mixers can be used well with most every configuration of speakers, processors and amplifiers. i've also used many of these mixers with powered speakers for mobile systems, as well as major systems such as tour systems where the whole package (mixer, amp rack, speakers, mics, monitor speakers, etc.) travelled for to many venues across the states.

i'm not sure if i've helped clarify my question or not so let me sum up by saying that i understand that the responses i can expect from the members here are going to vary wildly and that was part of the reason fro my question being so vague in that i'm curious what preferances people have for the applications that are relevant to them whether that might be in a school theater, church, conference center, local club, whatever. so again the assumption i'm making is that you have free reign to design the system regardless of cost, so you have no restrictions other than your needs which i left open for explanation by the responders because i'm curious, with so many industry professionals here, what different perspectives are offered by those working with different applications.

 

[Footer]

Most riders that I have to fill say the following... if the gear has Midas or Digico stenciled on it (and someone who is a digico tech is attached to it) I'll use it. They also say if it says Avid, I will use it if I have to... and your not hiding a Midas or Digico console in the closet. After that, they usually say I will use A&H if the promoter has a strong contract. Beyond that, everything else is really not even considered except for the possibility of an M7 in monitor world. This should also include Klark/XTA graphs, BSS/DBX 160a comps, and be hooked up to something that has Meyer, V-Dosc, Nexo, or D&B stenciled on it.

This is the rider friendly gear that everyone has pretty much agreed on is acceptable. Now, Versha, nearly every console and gear you mentioned is what is lumped into the prosumer/education/bar band gear with the exception of the M7. Most of the brands I mentioned are not even really commercially available outside of local dealers... and most are built to order. For the cost of some of the top end consoles you could buy a top of the line BMW.

Finally, there is the sound issue. Many of the shows that my venue brings is have older engineers with them. Most of these guys can not stand the sound of a digital console. Some have converted but only go with the Digico consoles because of their sound. However, nearly all of them are happy with our Heritage 1k. Hell, one show we have in nearly yearly is still touring around with an XL4 because of the sound... and that console was discontinued in 2006. I don't have the best ear in the world... and I will admit that so I can't totally hear the difference but many can... or claim to at least. I can hear the difference in an M7, but can't hear it with a Digico. To each their own...

 

[bishopthomas]

Mostly I like digital. Analog is still best for festivals, walk in situations, or if it's a digital I've never used. We own Yamaha digitals because they're the most popular, but in my oppinion they sound the worst and are terribly unresponsive.

 

[FMEng]

The underlying technology is somewhat irrelevant. The idea that digital or analog sounds "better" is bogus; there are good and bad examples of both. Does the console have the features I need for the task at hand? Is it familiar to the user, or is it generic enough in functionality for that user to be able to get the job done?

I tend to approach the choice this way: If the console is installed in permanent location, and used by a limited number of people, I would lean toward digital for the additional features and flexibility they often bring.

On the other hand, I would hate to walk into a situation and have to mix on a digital console that is unfamiliar to me. In the heat of battle is not when I want to be learning where something is hidden several layers into a menu. I want a knob or a switch! (This is why riders are getting insistent on certain products.) Having twelve kinds of EQ and a compressor on everything is great, but only if I know how to get to them. I've never met an analog console I wasn't comfortable with in a few minutes.

For live, remote broadcasts I prefer analog consoles because of the inherent redundancy of their design. It isn't likely for an analog console to go completely dead, especially if it has dual power supplies. Losing a channel or a buss is one thing, but a total failure or crash is another. (Yes, I AM paranoid.) A digital console has opportunities for single point failures, especially if it is being roaded. On the other hand, some kinds of shows would be mess without the recalls of a digital board.

People tend to compare digital consoles costing five digits with analog consoles costing four digits and then they claim the audible difference is the basic technology used. It's not. That would be like trying to compare a Chevy Malibu with a Cadillac and then saying all four cylinder engines are bad.

I'm just scratching the surface on the pro/cons of each. I would encourage you to get beyond the "digital is always better" marketing hype and learn more.

 

[bishopthomas]

The idea that digital or analog sounds "better" is bogus; there are good and bad examples of both.

I'm not sure if this is geared toward me, but I wanted to clarify that I wasn't saying that I don't like the sound of ALL digital consoles. I just do not like the sound of YAMAHA digital consoles. The PM5D is passable but the LS9 and M7CL are atrocious. Besides the harsh preamps/converters the EQ and dynamics are very unresponsive as well. Of course, often audio quality is not the sole determining factor in using/purchasing so compromises are made.

 

[museav]

Personally, I prefer digital boards for live mixing and the only consoles I'd spend any money on are the Yamaha boards. I've personally worked with the O1V96 and the M7CL and enjoyed both boards immensely even though the O1V96 can be rather complicated to work with.

That is not to say that analogue boards don't have their merit and overall I prefer A&H boards, but the Mackie firewire interface for recording is really convenient and the program it works with is pretty decent, however I've only gotten satisfactory response from a Mackie when working with a 100% Mackie system. So, thoughts?

My personal experience has been with a variety of systems/applications. the question is open ended, you're right. i've worked with systems in most of the applications you've stated with varying budgets from near unlimited to a very tight budget. the reference for this discussion would have to be that given you had all the money in the world to design your own system, what would you prefer when it comes to choosing which console you'd work with. while i agree that some of these questions are pertinent, i.e. budget and specific needs as well as the other equipment you would be using, overall when it comes to which mixer i want to use, i can make that decision in a vaccum because i know what works well for almost every situation and what i prefer.

Are you really saying that for a selection made in a vacuum, without any consideration for budget and where the options would include anything offered by Yamaha, Allen & Heath, Soundcraft, APB Dynasonics, Digidesign, DigiCo, Midas, SSL, Neve, Harrison, Cadac, etc. that you would choose an O1V96, M7CL or a Mackie? There has to be some specific considerations affecting your comments.

A general discussion may have some value but these types of discussions always concern me as I too often encounter situations where when I ask someone what they are looking for in their sound system I get a list of specific products, many of which turn out to have no relation to, or are even incompatible with, their functional needs and/or the existing conditions. People asking for 32 channel mixers and then defining 48 inputs. People requesting products they've never used or researched. People asking for products that would require budgets several times that they have to work with. People wanting digital snakes when they have perfectly good copper in place. People wanting speaker systems that are inappropriate for the physical space. I just want everyone to keep in mind that while it may be nice to talk about things in a vacuum, you can't actually live in a vacuum.

 

[cbrandt]

Just as the token lighting guy's opinion. I've never had a sound tech complain about lighting hum when they were using a digital console. I can't count the number of sound snakes and lighting cable that I've rerun when working with an analog sound console because some stage hand ran the cables right next to each other.

Might not be the consideration that you're worried about, but it seems to save everyone a lot of headache.

 

[Jsamuels201]

I mix most of the time on a Yamaha M7CL in a high school auditorium that does everything from Theatre to rock shows to talent shows. I know it's not the best sounding digital console out there (get a big ben and some good pre's if you really care that much), but unless your working in a professional theatre with great acoustics and a great frontline I don't think anyone but a skilled audio engineer could tell the difference, and even then I'm not sure most of the people coming to see the show will even care. The big thing for me when working live is having a console that I can make do EXACTLY what i need it to and the M7 does that for me. Nothing beats mixing a 40 channel musical and being able to compress and EQ each channel individually along with being able to arrange channels in the order I want to look at them in on my console (my school's theatre has the stage end of the snake split up into 8-4 channel boxes scattered around the stage instead of just one stage box).

Now don't get me wrong, there are plenty of applications where a good analog console (in my opinion Midas of a high end Soundcraft, my school has an old Soundcraft Spirit lying around which is a dream to work with) will do the job just as well as a digital one, but If I have the choice to put an M7 or a venue or Digico console up against an analog I'm probably going to pick the digital because it allows me to do more, and mix more accurately in something like a musical where I can pre-program all of my mic changes, FX sends for songs, DCA's, or a battle of the bands where I can set a mix for each band during sound check and save it. It's a level of flexibility that just doesn't exist with analog and in my opinion a lot of people that don't accept that digital is a good way to go for live mixing just refuse to take the time to learn a digital console.

PS If I'm working in a studio tracking for post I'll take a good analog console with flying fader's or an external control surface over digital any day. I saw a brochure for a college where they had a PM5D as a recording console and I literally laughed out loud.

 

[bishopthomas]

Just as the token lighting guy's opinion. I've never had a sound tech complain about lighting hum when they were using a digital console. I can't count the number of sound snakes and lighting cable that I've rerun when working with an analog sound console because some stage hand ran the cables right next to each other.

Might not be the consideration that you're worried about, but it seems to save everyone a lot of headache.

The console really doesn't have anything to do with it. I've had hum problems while jumping from lighting distro to audio, even when using a digital console with Cat5 snake.

 

[Versha]

Are you really saying that for a selection made in a vacuum, without any consideration for budget and where the options would include anything offered by Yamaha, Allen & Heath, Soundcraft, APB Dynasonics, Digidesign, DigiCo, Midas, SSL, Neve, Harrison, Cadac, etc. that you would choose an O1V96, M7CL or a Mackie? There has to be some specific considerations affecting your comments.

If I had my way, in a vacuum, i would want either a M7 or an A&H and of course there are other considerations when deciding on a sound console and as for the higher end products like Midas, well its just that, they're too expensive i've worked with the O1V96 and didn't find it unresponsive, however it was for a very small church so it fit the system rather nicely, and was definitely not the driving force in the quality of the sound in that system. i've used the M7 repeatedly for a number of different applications and i quite like the versatility it offers. I would generally not chooses a Mackie console unless i was designing a 100% Mackie system as i said.
and for the record, i don't think that digital is any better or worse than analogue i'm just curious as to your guy's opinions

 

[Footer]

The console really doesn't have anything to do with it. I've had hum problems while jumping from lighting distro to audio, even when using a digital console with Cat5 snake.

That is something we don't even thing about in our venue, but we have isolated power and good copper. However, I have seen road shows with digital snakes produce tons noise. Also, I would say half of the shows that we have in that are carrying digital still run a standard split and run all copper to FOH. The noise issue is far from gone with digital.