Explosives
- Thread starterEdrick
- Start date
Les
Well-Known Member
Re: Opps...
I can definitely agree with that, but I think I would be looking longingly at that keyboard button after the 20-minute show I had the other day. It was a little complicated though. There were two main launching locations. I was at the secondary "rooftop" location, and the product was very spread out among multiple stations up there. We ran what was essentially two shows concurrently, synced by two consoles and firing to the music via timecode. It was a [-]neat[/-] amazing show, and while I can definitely appreciate the "oldschool" firing method, we would have needed so many technicians! The Pyro company I worked for also had about 4 other area shows happening at the same time. [-]I think some of their smaller town shows were fired by hand[/-]. Our show was just too big/spread out/choreographed.
I can definitely agree with that, but I think I would be looking longingly at that keyboard button after the 20-minute show I had the other day. It was a little complicated though. There were two main launching locations. I was at the secondary "rooftop" location, and the product was very spread out among multiple stations up there. We ran what was essentially two shows concurrently, synced by two consoles and firing to the music via timecode. It was a [-]neat[/-] amazing show, and while I can definitely appreciate the "oldschool" firing method, we would have needed so many technicians! The Pyro company I worked for also had about 4 other area shows happening at the same time. [-]I think some of their smaller town shows were fired by hand[/-]. Our show was just too big/spread out/choreographed.
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Sorry I'm late, I've been out of town for a while. Here's another great story from the Seattle Area. A guy was storing a shipping container filled with the fireworks for two small community 4th of July shows in his junk yard. $80,000 worth of fireworks all, prepped and ready to go. Around 1am on July 1st the owner of the junk yard decides to go test out his new rifle... Guess what happened.
You can read the rest here.
You can read the rest here.
Poulsbo, a semi-touristy Norwegian-themed town, was one of the towns that had their show occur prematurely, somehow got enough fireworks for it not to be any different than other years. One tidbit about their show, they have it on July 3rd. And an indian reservation is next door so the people shooting off fireworks nearby can blend in with the professional show.
CreativeSPFX
Member
Sorry I haven't been able to check this earlier. To address a few points:
Garden State has just recently started to narrow down the problem. To my knowledge, virus has been ruled out at this point and was unlikely to begin with. Most companies do a pretty good job at isolating their computers to be used exclusively for shows. August Santore is far from "someone who doesn't know what's up." He probably misspoke, but I can't imagine the situation he was in. I'm not going to criticize how they handled it with the media because they were so shaken up.
Probably not. What safety measures are you speaking about specifically? Please quote NFPA 1123 and tell me what they did wrong. For something of this caliber to happen (on a barge shoot no less), they were doing something right if nobody got hurt. At anytime, something can go wrong (and they do) which is why safety measures are in place.
Hand firing is fun on occasion. However, you just can't do everything by hand to pull off certain looks or precise choreography. It all depends on the needs of the show. Personally, I'd rather be as far back as I can while shooting. Our company only does electronically fired displays. They're flat out safer because they allow the shooter to be farther back.
Most systems do have an E-stop or deadman switch. The show fired so quickly that there was no stopping it by the time the operators knew what had happened. Although the "show" lasted 15 seconds, the actual cues probably all fired in 5 seconds or less. The system they were allegedly using does have a backup manual control. But again, if it all fires, there are no more fireworks to shoot manually.
Good theory. The show was already loaded so with each shell in a tube, it wouldn't have been a mass "chain reaction." Also, multiple barges all reacted the same way, which leads to the belief that the computer was in control with that. If shells weren't loaded and sitting on top of mortar tubes, or in cases that were ignited, you would see more of a "chain reaction" which would be devastating.
I've heard Garden State (fireworks company), along with the firing system manufacturer, are supposed to come out with a joint press release to explain what happened. A few points:
This is very rare, but obviously can happen. Sometimes shows don't go as planned. I think it was a programming error since all barges acted the same. It could have been in the design software or done manually. It's still up in the air.
Garden State is a well-respected company in the industry. They do a lot of shows. Again, sometimes things happen.
How many of you have ever had a lighting console freeze up? Scary stuff! Computers can be helpful, but it always adds another layer of complexity for more things to go wrong. Of course, the media also latches onto this, despite the thousands of shows that went off just fine that week.
Garden State has just recently started to narrow down the problem. To my knowledge, virus has been ruled out at this point and was unlikely to begin with. Most companies do a pretty good job at isolating their computers to be used exclusively for shows. August Santore is far from "someone who doesn't know what's up." He probably misspoke, but I can't imagine the situation he was in. I'm not going to criticize how they handled it with the media because they were so shaken up.
Probably not. What safety measures are you speaking about specifically? Please quote NFPA 1123 and tell me what they did wrong. For something of this caliber to happen (on a barge shoot no less), they were doing something right if nobody got hurt. At anytime, something can go wrong (and they do) which is why safety measures are in place.
Hand firing is fun on occasion. However, you just can't do everything by hand to pull off certain looks or precise choreography. It all depends on the needs of the show. Personally, I'd rather be as far back as I can while shooting. Our company only does electronically fired displays. They're flat out safer because they allow the shooter to be farther back.
Most systems do have an E-stop or deadman switch. The show fired so quickly that there was no stopping it by the time the operators knew what had happened. Although the "show" lasted 15 seconds, the actual cues probably all fired in 5 seconds or less. The system they were allegedly using does have a backup manual control. But again, if it all fires, there are no more fireworks to shoot manually.
Good theory. The show was already loaded so with each shell in a tube, it wouldn't have been a mass "chain reaction." Also, multiple barges all reacted the same way, which leads to the belief that the computer was in control with that. If shells weren't loaded and sitting on top of mortar tubes, or in cases that were ignited, you would see more of a "chain reaction" which would be devastating.
I've heard Garden State (fireworks company), along with the firing system manufacturer, are supposed to come out with a joint press release to explain what happened. A few points:
This is very rare, but obviously can happen. Sometimes shows don't go as planned. I think it was a programming error since all barges acted the same. It could have been in the design software or done manually. It's still up in the air.
Garden State is a well-respected company in the industry. They do a lot of shows. Again, sometimes things happen.
How many of you have ever had a lighting console freeze up? Scary stuff! Computers can be helpful, but it always adds another layer of complexity for more things to go wrong. Of course, the media also latches onto this, despite the thousands of shows that went off just fine that week.
I can't since I don't have the facts of their set-up. Plus, just because no one was hurt does not mean that they were doing it right. We can look at many posts on this forum to see how people have escaped injury when something went wrong, and found that it was preventable. Even respected and well known companies can have a catastrophe and be sued. This is America after all, we love lawsuits. However, without an independent third party doing an investigation (since there were no injuries), we'll see if it's just settled out of court.
So, since you have the experience in fireworks shows and I do not, why wouldn't the deadman essentially be in place until the show is allowed to go live? This is how we do it in theater when we have a computer controlled pyro effect. That switch should have been thrown the moment the first shell discharged. Again, once those fireworks are connected to a firing mechanism, they should be watched at all times for safety. Even five seconds is too long.
Sure, the media latched onto it. Surprisingly, they did not bring up a similar situation in Scotland a few years back. Audiences are often unforgiving. Ask any sound guy. You do a perfect show and the audience feels, well he did his job. Let one squeak out and they think you're an amateur.
As for lighting consoles freezing up? If you are on a high profile show, you have a live tracking back-up system, maybe more. Believe me, you don't want to have to answer to the higher-ups when the reason they had to refund the house was because you didn't have your system properly managed.
I love that they say that they'll do a make up show. When, for Mexican Independence Day? Sometimes in show business you get one shot to do it right. If you don't, you get judged by that. It's a touchy business. One day you are well respected, the next, not so much.
CreativeSPFX
Member
My point was, you made a bold statement by saying "Obviously the proper safety measures were not in place." And as you pointed out, you don't have the facts of their set up. I don't either, so I won't accuse someone/a company of something when I don't have the facts. You're statement very well could be true. You make a lot of bold statements for someone who doesn't have experience with professional large-scale displays.
Again, I don't know much about their set up. Those that do know, aren't talking much. Another theory is that the programming fired all at 0:00:000. In this scenario, maybe the deadman was held down as it should have been but everything fired at once. With so many fireworks, it very well could take 10-15 seconds for the sky to clear even if all was fired at once.
My understanding is that the show fired once loaded and ready to go (even if during the testing and pre-roll). It wasn't like things randomly went off during set up. Many of the practices you're talking about that you've seen in theater are accurate, but are definitely common practice. They were on barges, so it's not like someone left the show and walked away.
There are so many things that COULD have happened, regardless of safety measures in place. I can't, nor can most, speculate. We also use the same firing system so I'm very familiar with it. The system used is one of the most widely used in the world. Again, just like any computer, initially it's so hard to say what happened. We'll have to wait for the company to make a report. I'll try to update the thread if I find out additional information straight from the source.
My point was things can happen and computers fail. That's about all that can be said. Their company still does great shows. I shouldn't have compared lighting and pyro. There is no true comparison, but I'll try again. If all of your light bulbs burn out at once, what's your backup plan then? Backup/redundant systems wouldn't have made a difference.
Not sure why you have so much against them. I own a competing company and still have more empathy. So they offered to do a makeup show. Why would you put them down for that? They're trying to make it right. For your information, fireworks are used year-round. I shot 22 this last week, and do 2-3 a week the rest of the year.
I agree with most of what you've said. It's show business and you do have one time to get it right. Sometimes things happen. Some are foreseeable, some are not. That's life. I'm sure Garden State will be just fine. They have probably shot a dozen or more shows since then with no issues whatsoever.
That would be my guess. Do you know what controller they use?
For example, I know show director is very glitchy and it is quite easy to bump all the cues to 00:00:00:00, I have never had any problem(of this kind) with the Field Controller itself though.
If they used any chains, I am suppressed of how short it was even if all the cues fired simultaneously.
CreativeSPFX
Member
The general consensus is that it was a FireOne system. Specific hardware is still unknown. Are you thinking about timed chains (with delay fuse)? If they were standard quickmatch chains, I think the timing would have been about right. Some people also double match their chains to get more of an "instant feel." Another detail that could have made a difference and nobody outside of this really knows.
Yes, I meant chains with delay fuse, either in "series" or "parallel", if you know what I mean. I do not know if I think of the same fuse as you when you say quickmatch would take 15s to ignite the all of the shells. I often count quickmatch as instantaneous. But that doesn't matter.
I would be interesting to know if hardware failure were the cause of the accident or if it was a programming error(or something else).
CreativeSPFX
Member
Yeah, it really is a "who knows?" situation. Hopefully more information will come out in the next few days.
I won’t concede that I made bold statements. My opinions may be strong, but that does not make them wrong. This company may have taken all industry standard precautions for safety and they may not. I don’t know; neither will anyone if there is not an independent investigation. I’m not speculating on what they did or did not do, just that there is an obvious need for alternate safety measures that were not used since an uncontrolled set of fireworks were discharged with no means of stopping them. We as a community rely on your experience to help us understand what went wrong and what went right in a general sense. We don't need a how-to since nobody should do this without proper training.
In your opinion, is the standard practice to verify your show prior to starting the firing sequence by computer? This is standard practice for large scale shows which I have worked on, even without pyro effects (i.e. proofreading for the literary world). Call it superstition or safe practice, as I said, we want to ensure that it works right the first time.
I am extremely pleased that they are a professional company who managed safety well enough that even though something dramatically was out of their control that no one was injured and no property was damaged.
You are correct that there is no true comparison between pyro and other effects of a show. Not everything can cause serious bodily harm should there be a catastrophic failure in the system (except maybe automation). Since your second example is just as unlikely (what computer glitch would make all my lamps blow?), we could talk about power. It’s true that on a one off event, there is likelihood that the main power could blow due to a transformer failure or something else out of the operators’ control. It would likely be from either miscalculating the load (human error) or an act of god, not just blaming it on a computer glitch. In the large venue where I work, when we had a transformer blow, exterior from the facility, the only way that the audience knew that the power had failed was that emergency lights had come on. We have UPS and back-up generators for all of our power and could have (irresponsibly) continued the show on that back-up system since we have enough power to continue for at least 30 minutes. Sometimes, when so much is at stake, you have to go beyond the basic guidelines established by the government.
For the record, I have nothing against them. I have nothing against the fireworks industry, my kids love them. You may have more empathy because you are in the industry and can feel what it must be like to have that happen. The same can be said for me feeling for all those who have had outdoor stage collapses in the past few years. I stopped doing outdoor shows back in the 90’s because I hated dealing with unpredictable weather.
The reason I was so snarky about the callousness of a make-up show is that, correct me if I’m wrong, the two really big days for fireworks in the US are the Fourth of July and New Year’s Eve. Your other shows are for sporting and other special events but are on a different scale. After all, it isn’t just that people didn’t get to see fireworks. There were many people who probably traveled to come down and see the show. They had to pay to park, which could be $10 or more. They may have tried to make an evening of it so they splurged when they might not necessarily do so (many families do this as one of the few things they can afford each year). They were out money and got nothing for it. Or on another token, many businesses (or independent food cart vendors) will have prepared for the evening and lost revenue because people were turned away, though it’s possible some made bank on those who waited the ½ hour waiting for the real show to start. The repercussions from this failure are much more far reaching. I doubt that they intend on making sure that there is free parking for a make-up show. The businesses who lost revenue from there not being a show could also try to seek compensation based off previous years’ revenues. A make-up show cannot guarantee that the same number of visitors will come to the area since there is not another similar time of congregation until New Year’s. I apologize if you took offense to that cynicism.
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- John Huntington's Blog - What Happened In San Diego at the Big Bay Boom? Garden State Fireworks*Explains
That Huntington guy knows effin everything!
That Huntington guy knows effin everything!
I read the full press release, and it looks like alot of double speak to me. Why not just say "It was a human error when processing the master and backup file" if that was the case? There's no need to explain any of that other stuff. They could have left it at a 1-2 paragraph P/R and it would have done the job. The fact that they went to such lengths to explain it makes it look to me like they're trying to cover something up. Just my opinion!
DuckJordan
Touring IATSE Member
I agree, all that needed to be shown was that last paragraph, they wrote the program wrong. their show files were correct but the program to double check them was completely off.
CreativeSPFX
Member
Updated info...I spoke directly with the system manufacturer. It was 100% user error. They manipulated their software file on site and all cues were set to fire at 00:00 on accident. Negative timecode was ran to start with, but it all fired simultaneously. Even with a deadman, the show would not have been able to stop. This was avoidable, but has nothing to do with more safety and following government regulations. Sometimes mistakes are made.
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Since I don't know about the use of timed chains with delay fuses or standard quickmatch chains, how long of a sequence is standard for a single firing sequence? What I am trying to understand is with this accident which took over 30 seconds to fire all of the fireworks and all the sequences were triggered to start at once, how long of a chain can be set for a single trigger? How do these sequences get their commands in a system like this? Does it send one command to a single electronic match which in turn triggers additional matches (or equivalent) or are they set up like an effect sequence where you have a start command for the effect, but then there are individual steps in that effect which are individual commands?
I disagree that they only needed to have the last paragraph in their explanation of how events occurred. I think that it was very upstanding of them to disclose everything that they did. I don't think that we can come to begin to understand everything that goes in to putting on a show like this. By only putting in "it was human error" is like saying that everything that occurred last summer in Indiana was that there was a wind storm. We belittle ourselves to say that we can boil down a situation to something so simplistic and thus perpetuate to the public that what we do is simple as well. Sure, it was an avoidable error. I believe that this company will probably help set the standard to make sure that this error is not repeated, especially on this caliber.
I disagree that they only needed to have the last paragraph in their explanation of how events occurred. I think that it was very upstanding of them to disclose everything that they did. I don't think that we can come to begin to understand everything that goes in to putting on a show like this. By only putting in "it was human error" is like saying that everything that occurred last summer in Indiana was that there was a wind storm. We belittle ourselves to say that we can boil down a situation to something so simplistic and thus perpetuate to the public that what we do is simple as well. Sure, it was an avoidable error. I believe that this company will probably help set the standard to make sure that this error is not repeated, especially on this caliber.
