From Design to Vis... can I do it once?

[GageStryker]

Hi, guys!

Here's the situation. I work for a venue that has quite a few volunteer techs, and heavy demands on the main space. While I can do training every once in a while in the main space, I wanted to set something up the techs would feel more comfortable experimenting on, pushing the envelope on, going horribly wrong, and actually learning!

So, I decided to set up a previs suite. Right now we're running an GrandMA lite as our console, so the obvious choice for Vis was GrandMA 3D. I can sync with an offline editor for housekeeping, and integrate the very same console for training purposes. So far, so good. GrandMA3D is a little esoteric, but works for me for now.

Right now I'm using WYSIWYG report for my paperwork, and I'd love to find a way to export the data from WYG into MA3D for previs directly instead of having to update two systems every time we hang new fixtures.

Obviously, there is the option of using WYSIWYG Perform and syncing it to the GrandMA, but I haven't heard feedback from anyone who's got this working well. Previs where you build a tour, refine it, do it, and scrap it seems to be common, but previs as a training tool doesn't seem to be as widely accepted.

If anyone's found a way to convert data or built a better mousetrap, please let me know and I'd be forever grateful.

 

[shiben]

I know Blue Man Group uses GMAs linked with a pre-viz program that runs on multiple projectors in a room so that you can basically look at what the stage will look like. They dont use WYG, its something else and the name escapes me. ESP Vision possibly.

 

[Gern]

I too am interested in a pre-vis program to work with my Ion; I will be using it mainly for my own training. I know ETC West uses Capture Polar. Last time I checked Polar was Approx. $3K. I saw a demo of ESP Vision and I liked what I saw. Since it will be out of my pocket, I am leaning toward ESP Vision as I can buy 1 universe at a time for $750. If a show wanted to buy me a system, I'd spend 'their' money on WYSIWYG.

 

[derekleffew]

... but previs as a training tool doesn't seem to be as widely accepted. ...

Using a visualizer as a training tool is VERY widely accepted, as evidenced in just about every console training class. But those "rigs" are intended as a teaching tool and not to mimic any particular venue/set-up. That's where your problem lies. Must the visualizer match your rig exactly? Does it HAVE to be updated every time a light is re-hung, or even re-gelled?

There's not a good solution, yet. Lightwright integrates well with Vectorworks. Vectorworks plays well with ESP Vision. Vision works well with grandMA. But that's a lot of steps and FOUR different programs/computers. When I brought this up last time, Footer reminded me that ETC's Emphasis was an attempt to bright it all together. But not really, and we know how that turned out.

It's up to the console manufacturers to drive this, and so far none have come up with a viable, integrated solution. Until that happens, there's going to be import/export issues, with blood-letting at each step of the process.

... If a show wanted to buy me a system, I'd spend 'their' money on WYSIWYG.

Once again, I'll state: The designers I know doing concerts and large corporate shows, who can afford anything, use ESP Vision.

 

[Gern]

.

Once again, I'll state: The designers I know doing concerts and large corporate shows, who can afford anything, use ESP Vision.

Thanks for passing on the confidence factor here Derek! I really do appreciate it.

I eagerly look forward to ESP Vision and can now change my statement to:

"When a show wants to upgrade my system, I'd spend 'their' money on 5 more universes of ESP Vision."

 

[SteveB]

I think that Derek has it correct in terms of what programs currently do it best - Vectorworks & Lightwright for the paperwork, then to ESP Vision and then sync with MA. It's not easy but the steps do get faster once you've worked the bugs out and learned the steps.

I had an Emphasis system with WYG Perform and found it painful to A) Do anything with movers in a busking situation and B) Do anything with WYSIWYG itself in terms of paperwork Adding a fixture was a PITA. So we (I) stuck with VW & LW and skipped the Pre-Viz route and opted to train the console operators on the console.

Which was my first thought anyway. Are you training Designers that need to hash out their design prior to getting into the theater OR are you training console operators that play Lighting Director ?. IMO, there's nothing like actually sitting at the console and getting it drilled into your head where all the buttons are and what they do to make you a fast LD. Is this a space where the events are all one-off's busked that day ?, or events that have a tech process and run a while ?. If a one-off then I'd skip the Pre-Viz route and find console time for the operators.

 

[GageStryker]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys! I'm surprised I got so many responses to this in so little time.

First off, to the nature of the techs I'm training. I'm working in a large church setting, with volunteers that range from complete beginner all the way up to fairly seasoned. We're in the process of tryaing to get the systems in place to add to lighting, including movers, more LED, and the like.

I spend as much time as the venue has available with my volunteers in the venue, behind the console, doing training in live show environments - it's my belief that there's nothing like the real thing for authentic training.

There are, however, opportunities to learn by taking big risks (and sometimes making big mistakes). These are best explored in the virtual world. There also is the fact that some of our bigger shows include a lot of rental gear the techs aren't familiar with. Until now, I've been heading up these shows, since I'm familiar with a wider array of gear from outside shows and industry contacts, but want to get a chance for the volunteers to be more involved in programming and design for these productions.

As to ESP vision, I've taken a look at it before and wasn't impressed. It seems designed primarily for rock n' roll, and doesn't work well for our productions which run more like a heavily cued musical theatre. I found the interface clunky and not at all intuitive.

VectorWorks, on the other hand, is a very well developed piece of software, but I've had issues both with the rendering engine (although I hear that's fixed in the latest Spotlight release), and in terms of product support. We haven't been able to get them on the phone for basic support.

WYG, while lacking a few of the bells and whistles of VectorWorks, has been GREAT on product support. They built new fixture instances for me literally overnight, and they've been nothing but helpful in the support side of things. I also have all my paperwork already on WYG, and the paperwork -> plot integration is a lot tighter in WYG than between VW and LightWright.

Ah, eventually someone will figure out a solution - but Emphasis failed down that route, so I don't have high hopes. Mostly because designers want to do one thing, programmers another, and pre-vis is this magical bridge between the two worlds, apparently.

 

[Footer]

Ah, eventually someone will figure out a solution - but Emphasis failed down that route, so I don't have high hopes. Mostly because designers want to do one thing, programmers another, and pre-vis is this magical bridge between the two worlds, apparently.

I am a huge WYG user. Its what I have been doing all my shows in for about 5 years. I also spent a year in a venue with a Emphasis console. I hated the emphasis console. Drove me up a wall. I wanted to throw it out the window. It simply put to much stock in WYSIWYG to get simple things done. You could not patch a moving light without first hanging it in WYG. You then had to do a ton of other crap that was not well documented to get the thing to move.

WYG for pre-viz works. I have done several dance shows with limited time in space that multiple designers pre-programmed their show on WYG and the console. It saved us days of time in the space and the rental money tied to that. Its easy to pay for the cost of the software when you think about time in a space... lamps... rental of the gear.... etc. The upgrade to perform is going to be significant for you, but could be worth it.

As of right now I am trying to convert myself over to Vectorworks because I feel WYG is just never going to get where I want it to be. Its going to take me a long time to do. On that note then, I think ESPVision is also in my future. It seams to be what people are using.

I have never used GrandMA's visualizer. I doubt it will import the show. You might be able to get some info out of WYG, but WYG does not play well with others.

 

[shiben]

As to ESP vision, I've taken a look at it before and wasn't impressed. It seems designed primarily for rock n' roll, and doesn't work well for our productions which run more like a heavily cued musical theatre. I found the interface clunky and not at all intuitive.

Does that mean runing to timecode or something, or less area washes? I guess most of the musical theatre I have seen lately has been just about as heavily cued as a rock show, just with more breaks where the talking part goes... Obviously they are different from a design standpoint, but I would imagine that from a software perspective, there isnt a ton of difference. Of course, last time I was at a church it was about a rock concert with Bono making a special appearence, but with more music; that seems a different issue though.

 

[RonaldBeal]

As to ESP vision, I've taken a look at it before and wasn't impressed. It seems designed primarily for rock n' roll, and doesn't work well for our productions which run more like a heavily cued musical theatre. I found the interface clunky and not at all intuitive.

VectorWorks, on the other hand, is a very well developed piece of software, but I've had issues both with the rendering engine (although I hear that's fixed in the latest Spotlight release), and in terms of product support. We haven't been able to get them on the phone for basic support.

I have ESP Vision, and Vectorworks. You are correct, Visions interface leaves a lot to be desired, but you don't really need to use the interface all that much. Pretty much ALL of the rig creation is handled in Vectorworks. I hardly ever touch the Vision interface... just import my VWX files, connect the desk, and start programming.

I don't really see how you would change Vision to work different for theater. It realistically mimics lights. That is all it needs to do, and it does it well.

RB

 

[erosing]

I own Vision too and have been using it now for about a year and a half or so. It's largest problem is when the user doesn't understand how Vectorworks and ESP play together, but once you get that down it's pretty simple.

While I am very happy with ESP Vision, I still consider making the switch to WYSIWYG, I like the render options a little better for some things, for others I like ESP better.

I suggest you do what I did when I was still deciding which program to buy, find friends with the programs and ask if you can go play with them for a bit. That or you could download the demos (does Wyg still have one? I know ESP's was being updated now don't think it's up yet though).

From what I saw this is how I compared the two:

ESP
+ faster renders
+ cheaper
+ fantastic support
+ more realistic quality (this was the case at least)
- takes more time to start rendering

WYSIWYG
+ faster to start rendering
+ larger library
+ all in one package
+ "cleaner" renders
- expensive
- renders take longer