Health and Safety gone stupid!

[someguy98457]

Unless you have a certification, your work wouldn't really hold up if something were to happen. Obviously if something happened and a proffessional did it, there would still be issues but an "amateur" just makes the situaion worse. Just because you are an "electrician" in that you work with lighting which uses electricity, doesn't mean you're qualified to wire a building etc... I think Marmer's statement was along the lines of when there's that much power flowing through something I don't want anybody except people who do that as their profession and know what they're doing to touch it. Just to be safe. For what it's worth, I know people who've been "master electrician" for a show but wouldn't have had the forethought or training to LOTO a rack before trying to pull a dimmer out of it.

Long story short, I wouldn't advertise yourself as an electrician unless you've take courses or a certification and have real official training. I have done some work rewiring fixtures Etc... and list it as something I've done but make it clear anything more than A, B, or C would be outside of my realm of knowledge.

I might have undercut my experience and training cause I dont want to be cocky, but my question, which I didn't phrase well, is where is the line? Does everyone have a certification that's a theater electrician? I'm not talking about doing building code and running conduit, or rather is that in fact a job for a house electrics crew? How far past hang, circuit, focus, movers, dmx, board programming, etc. etc. etc. does it go?

 

[ruinexplorer]

I might have undercut my experience and training cause I dont want to be cocky, but my question, which I didn't phrase well, is where is the line? Does everyone have a certification that's a theater electrician? I'm not talking about doing building code and running conduit, or rather is that in fact a job for a house electrics crew? How far past hang, circuit, focus, movers, dmx, board programming, etc. etc. etc. does it go?

No, most theatrical electricians do not have certifications to be an electrician. The reason that ETCP was created was to weed out those who have glorified titles from their employers and who could cut the mustard with real world knowledge. This is why it takes knowledge and experience to be qualified to take the exam.

When I was a technical director of a road house, I devised a test for anyone who wanted to apply to be an on-call. Then I was able to rank them based on their knowledge and hire per show accordingly. Some things are practical knowledge, such as focusing a light or addressing a unit, and other things will take some smarts, such as calculating loads per circuit. I didn't have to worry about any of the major safety factors for power for my electricians since they would not be handling anything that would require more than very basic PPE.

If you want to advance to be a Master Electrician of a large house or tour, you should definitely invest in electrician training. You need to learn about what work requires specific PPE. If you do not have specific training, you shouldn't be throwing a breaker greater than what is on a dimmer module (NOT THE RACK). Honestly, I don't think that most colleges and universities teach enough practical knowledge to keep their students safe in regards to electricity. I know mine didn't, nor several where I have worked.

Without certification, you can still be a good lighting technician (I agree that it's not always good to use electrician as part of the title). After all, we are specialized consumers.

 

[marmer]

Is there something I'm missing here? It seems like a simple concept. In theatre, electricians work with lighting gear, primarily, and sometimes other electrical theatrical systems. If it has to do with the building power or infrastructure, an electrician has to be licensed, at least in Texas. Even though it's the same word, I wouldn't assume one is the other. I don't think there's anything wrong with a user (with authorized access) resetting a 120V 20A breaker in a breaker box, but if it's bigger than that you should call a licensed electrician. Most colleges or school districts have them in their maintenance department.

 

[someguy98457]

Is there something I'm missing here? It seems like a simple concept. In theatre, electricians work with lighting gear, primarily, and sometimes other electrical theatrical systems. If it has to do with the building power or infrastructure, an electrician has to be licensed, at least in Texas. Even though it's the same word, I wouldn't assume one is the other. I don't think there's anything wrong with a user (with authorized access) resetting a 120V 20A breaker in a breaker box, but if it's bigger than that you should call a licensed electrician. Most colleges or school districts have them in their maintenance department.

Right. I was just looking for clarification. Though we tend to kill power to the dimmers ourselves cause we have old D192's and the trays die on us some what regularly.

Thanks ruinexplorer that's what I was looking for. Are there any other certificates I should be striving to get?

 

[ruinexplorer]

That's the thing, right now to work in theater you don't need any certificates. For your own personal safety/knowledge, there are things to learn. Employers are supposed to provide safety training for workplace hazards. However, for our industry where so many of us are on-call or freelance employees, the employers often don't "get around" to offering that training, or they assume you already have it. So, if you can afford to get something like the OSHA 10-hour certificate, you will put yourself in a better position to keep yourself safe and know your rights. Take a class in fall protection.

Also, make sure that you understand that there is a difference between certification and getting a certificate (of completion).

Edit: there's a good possibility that your facility manager does not know the risk of turning on and off your dimmers. They should have an electrical risk assessment done to know who is qualified to do so. Seriously, I will find some good arc-flash/blast videos on youube to post on this thread. What seems harmless can seriously injure or kill you.

 

[museav]

I really wish there was some continuity and agreement regarding terms, titles and the associated roles. For example, Electrician, Electrical Contractor and Electrical Engineer. I'll bet that many people using an "Electrician" title don't even know the difference between these or understand the related roles and associated professional licensing.

 

[gafftaper]

Just to mess things up further, as a teacher I've been required to have work done by the district/campus house electrician from time to time. While these are real state licensed "electricians", their knowledge ends at installing new breaker panels, repairing classroom light switches, and working on motors in the building HVAC system. Not an insult to them but they aren't trained in theater electrical systems and have no idea what's going on in a dimmer rack. More than once I've had to intervene to make sure the district's house electrician didn't damage my theater equipment or himself. We are highly specialized and yet often need the help of a "real" electrician. I've found that working together with the district/campus electrician is the best strategy, show up at the theater with a box of donuts the day the work will be done and say you are there to learn more from him about how your system works, ask questions and try to make yourself part of the team.

 

[marmer]

Yes, exactly what he said. I've also found that our campus electricians tend to play nice with dealer/factory service reps.

 

[photoatdv]

And to make things even more confusing some places require electricians for Camlok connections. The place I worked that did was more along the "require" lines in that is was not enforced at all-- but I believe some places it is. Most places seem to go with requiring "qualified personnel" for single pole connectors (ex camlok). That said pretty much the only time I deal with tie-ins is when we're using gennys, and my normal genny supplier is a licensed electrical contractor.

 

[BobHealey]

And to make things even more confusing some places require electricians for Camlok connections. The place I worked that did was more along the "require" lines in that is was not enforced at all-- but I believe some places it is. Most places seem to go with requiring "qualified personnel" for single pole connectors (ex camlok). That said pretty much the only time I deal with tie-ins is when we're using gennys, and my normal genny supplier is a licensed electrical contractor.

One of the venues I've been in had a compromise with the camlocs. They'd permanently wire a company switch to a posiloc panel, all in conduit and nicely done, and that could be used without their presence assuming the other end was also posiloc. As soon as one end went to standard cams, the electrician was then required. Same for temporary cam tie points - if it wasn't hard wired, electrician time.

 

[LavaASU]

"Posiloc panel"??? All I can find in a quick google search is for 14-22awg wires.

 

[techieman33]

"Posiloc panel"??? All I can find in a quick google search is for 14-22awg wires.

He probably meant powerloc.

 

[zmb]

"Posiloc panel"??? All I can find in a quick google search is for 14-22awg wires.

This is the closest thing to wiring I found too: Posi-Lock(R) - The Best Connectors You'll Ever Use!. But it doesn't seem like anymore than an improvement on wire nuts for in-wall wire connections. I got results on Bing for 4 wheel drive systems and gymnasium safety along with that.

 

[avkid]

Crouse-Hinds Posi-Lok

 

[techieman33]

This is the closest thing to wiring I found too: Posi-Lock(R) - The Best Connectors You'll Ever Use!. But it doesn't seem like anymore than an improvement on wire nuts for in-wall wire connections. I got results on Bing for 4 wheel drive systems and gymnasium safety along with that.

Just FYI, posi lock for a car has nothing to do with 4 wheel drive. It's GM's name for a limited slip differential.

 

[teqniqal]

"Posiloc panel"??? All I can find in a quick google search is for 14-22awg wires.

Posi-Lok(TM) is a cam-loc like product group distributed by Crouse-Hinds (Cooper Electric).
Posi-Lok

It is a safety-interlocked system that requires the sequential connection of ground, then neutral, then hot phase leg(s) so that you can't have a situation where the legs are hot without a ground and neutral connection. To disconnect the conductors your reverse the sequence. Several other companies also make similar systems, but most of them are not inter-compatible physically.

 

[mstaylor]

This is along the discussion that I started last year. I was questioning the differences in our industry in terms for the same job. Theatre seems to like titles so their lighting people are called electricians. In the touring world you have lighting techs that do the same job, sometimes more. A theatre electrician has levels just like anywhere else. A master electrician is simply the guy in charge of the rig. Depending on the theatre or tour he could simply be supervising the hang and focus, sometimes the board op and followspots. Sometimes he doubles as the board op. He could also be responsible for maintenance of the rig and even movers repairs. Certainly if he is on a theatre tour this is true. None of this requires him to actually be an electrian but he certainly has to have electrical knowledge.
An electrician is usually just a stagehand that knows how to hang and focus. He may also know how to do electrical repairs in the rig, build cables, change lamps and other basic things.
An actual electrician has to be trained and either be licensed or work under a licensed person. He may have absolutely no idea how to do anything to a dimmer rack, board or other parts of the system. He does know how the power is supplied and how to lock out/tag out the system. Then he can let the person trained to repair the equipment do the repairs. It is no different than cutting the power to a boiler and letting the boiler mechanic fix it.
An electrical engineer is an animal that rarely found in a theatre except when being built or remodeled. My brother in law is one and runs design teams for Westinghouse. He called me to explain how to wire a sub panel in his house.

 

[sk8rsdad]

An electrical engineer is an animal that rarely found in a theatre.

... except perhaps in community theatre where there might be many of them working on the same show, sometimes as actors. Don't get me started on the overuse of the word engineer, which is arguably even more abused than the word electrician.

 

[What Rigger?]

Spose..
How do american places get away with it though?
Same with rigging?

Hey Adam, not all us Yanks get away with it. My company (whom I am not allowed to name here), has recently gone through Arc Flash training and now I am no longer allowed to open certain types of electrical panels and/or breaker boxes without personal protective equipment (various levels of face shields, electrical safety gloves, etc...), or in certain cases we must don full body protective suits. We were told this in training by one of our ESTA/ETCP certified LX's: "We are going in line with the European standards."

Now, when you add in my dimmer rack that's inside of a "confined space"- headaches for days. But we learn it, use it, and suck it up I suppose.

Footer's got a good idea, DO Google "arc flash". That ain't no 110v shock.

But yes, I do feel for you.

 

[gafftaper]

When I spent my day backstage at Cirque Ka (during LDI 2008) I was amazed at the attention to detail for every safety rule. There are breaker panels all over that theater. Every time you would find that they had a clearly taped off perimeter on the floor with a lab coat, gloves, and safety glasses located nearby. The T.D. said that on their most recent inspection they were told that the only violation in the entire theater was something minor about the storage of empty propane tanks. It was amazing!