Help setting up sound for a school building

[stormzsystem]

Hi guys, my first post here.

I work at a middle school in Providence RI and we're looking to hook up the building with a PA system so we can deliver announcements or music from the main office out to the classrooms and hallways over the three floors of the facility.

I have a decent amount of experience with sound and regular PA setups, but have no idea where to start with hooking up a whole building!

Obviously ideally it would be a wireless system, but as I said, I don't have experience in this.

Thanks in advance

 

[chausman]

Obviously ideally it would be a wireless system, but as I said, I don't have experience in this.

Is this one "thing", like a cart with speakers, that could be moved throughout the building to where you would want the music/announcements or would this be a PA for every room at once? If the latter, why would you want wireless? Wireless brings up all new problems and can be very finicky.

 

[BillESC]

If you're looking for a whole building announcement system, you'll want to go with a 70v distributed sound system.

How many rooms? Approximate size of the average room? Hallways, gym and cafeteria included? Is there a commons area? Do you need sound outside as well?

I do a lot of this type of installation.

 

[DuckJordan]

Obviously you need to bring in someone else. While its great you know your stuff with standard pa's. Building systems like the one you describe are a whole other monster.

No offense intended but you'll likely cost your school more money in the long run.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[museav]

Obviously you need to bring in someone else. While its great you know your stuff with standard pa's. Building systems like the one you describe are a whole other monster.

No offense intended but you'll likely cost your school more money in the long run.

Just to add to this, it is understanding not just the technical aspects of the system design but also the code and practical installation issues involved. There could also be a critical aspect in that many announcement systems installed in schools over the last few years are intended to also function as part of emergency alert/notification systems and that adds numerous additional requirements.

For even a basic system you probably need to think about basic issues like whether the system needs to be zoned (and if so, what are the zones), what control you want or need at the end points (e.g. should a classroom have volume control in that room and does that need to be overridden for certain announcements), what infrastructure is existing or needs to be added and so on.

 

[josh88]

I live in Providence. and the significant other is doing a couple of shows at middle schools in town, which middle school are you at?

 

[Morte615]

If your installing a new system then I would recommend looking at Audio over IP. These types of systems use standard Cat 5 or 6 cable to distribute audio and can work with existing speakers and amps, or can be all in one systems that can work together.

Another reason I feel to go with this type of install is because you can get great amounts of control over what speakers turn on, which ones don't, and also who can make announcements and where they can be made at. For example, say the principle is in the office and wants to make a school wide announcement. All he has to do is turn on the control desk, push the button marked school wide, and speak into the mic! But if the same principle decides he only needs to talk to a single class room (or even set of classrooms, maybe announcements only for 1 grade level) then he can do the same thing from the same control desk!

And another reason is that these systems can be integrated with an existing network, so say a teacher wants to use the speakers for a classroom presentation. All they have to do is load the presentation on the computer that is already in the classroom, hit play and away it goes. And it can be programmed so if someone from the main control booth (the office) tries to talk then it overrides the local inputs. And this setup works great in say an auditorium.

These systems have lots of different uses and configurations and they also leave lots of room for expansion later. Here is one company that does this and offers their products to schools and such (disclaimer: I have not used them before but I found them when looking for something similar) QSC - Q-Sys Integrated System Platform

 

[stormzsystem]

Thanks a lot for the responses so far.

This is definitely the latter: a PA for every room at once. I said ideally wireless because I thought it would make installation and adjustments considerably easier. If in fact it brings more hassles than upsides and if the cost is much higher, a wired system is great, no bias.

Hallways, cafeteria, main office, but nothing outdoors. 10-15 classrooms, which I think are about 30 square feet on average, with high ceilings.

The 70 volt system sounds good, and Audio over IP is really interesting. I'm going to try and learn a little more about how the two compare. Another concern is audio quality. Hopefully we can run music through the system with reasonable quality. Audio over Ethernet better than IP on that front, but is it much more expensive or difficult given the need for a high-performance network?

This is for TAPA, on Messer St near the Armory.

The advice is much appreciated!

 

[venuetech]

I think are about 30 square feet on average

A 4x8 sheet of plywood has 32 square feet

perhaps you meant to say 30 feet square.

I am a bit confused, there is no central PA system in this school?

Rauland would be one company to look at. I am sure there a few others.

Telecenter Classroom Intercom, Paging and Clock Solutions for Schools

 

[stormzsystem]

Definitely 30 ft by 30 ft, not 30 square feet, thanks for the correction.

And no, there's no central PA system. We're a charter school less than 2 years old and we just moved into this building. There was a public elementary school in the building before us, but I'm not sure if they had some sort of PA arrangement.

 

[museav]

I still believe that you need to define the problem a bit more before looking at potential solutions. For example, is it always the same content to every room or do you want or need to be able to select what is going where or what rooms receive the music or messages? Do the rooms need to be able to control their volume locally and if so, do you need to be able to override that for some purposes? Would the system be used just for music and general informational announcements or might it be used for emergency announcements? How far away are some of the spaces, what paths are available to them and what infrastructure (conduit, cable tray, boxes, power, etc.) exists that can be used for this system? Is there a budget for the system?

I'm not trying to make too much of this, but if licensing relating to the system installation is relevant then it is in the school's best interest to make sure it is properly addressed. It has been a number of years, it was new construction (or at least a new tenant fit out) and we weren't the Owner working on our own property, which may have been a factor, however the one AV installation project I worked on in Providence was very picky about licensing, inspections, etc. Rhode Island does apparently license Telecommunication System, which includes audio and AV, Contractors, Technicians and Limited Installers, stating that "In order to protect the public interest and property, assure compliance with standards of technical competency, and promote safe practices in the act of designing, installing, servicing, and testing of telecommunications systems in this state, telecommunications are declared to be subject to regulation in the public interest."

Two specific exemptions are entities that have permanent staff dedicated to designing, installing and servicing systems within their own facilities and "The work and equipment employed in connection with kindergarten through grade 12 schools or public libraries utilizing volunteers under the direct supervision of a Rhode Island licensed telecommunication system contractor (TSC), with no more than two (2) volunteers being directly supervised by a telecommunication systems contractor (TSC)." The latter does seem to indicate that any work may have to be either provided by or supervised by a licensed professional.

 

[sk8rsdad]

I'm no expert but...

Since many schools are designated emergency shelters, communication within classrooms may come under the jurisdiction by the Department of Homeland Security. Add in the ability to lock down or isolate a classroom (FEMA guidelines?) and the requirements of any communication system might have to be compliant with a number of regulations beyond the scope of this forum.

 

[esmphoto]

I was in charge of repairing most all, and replacing some of my schools PA over the summer. I would recommend 70v loudspeakers and a console from bogen just for price/because it's what's in almost every other school.

Audio over IP would be easier to manage and install.

It is a national requirement (don't have the book with me ao I can't site the specific code) that every class room be able to communicate with the office in case of an emergency, if each classroom has a phone then that satisfys that requirement, if not you need a call button intercom system/PA hybrid

Whatever system you install, I would recommend tieing it in with the phones, all analog/hybrid PBX systems support an announcement function and a digital system can be easilly adapted to it
This way you could dial the PAs extension and access code from any phone to make an announcement

I'd be glad to help you with any specific questions you have

 

[josh88]

down here in Barrington that's how we function. There is a system that can announce over any or all of our phones at once from the main office. it just takes control and basically puts it in speaker phone mode. It's pretty effective outside of not being the loudest thing in the room sometimes.

 

[stormzsystem]

Thanks again for all the help so far. I'm going to try and define the need a little more and bring back more specifics in the next day or two.

How does the cost for setting up (equipment + installation) Audio over IP generally compare with 70 volt?

Also, are both 70 volt and Audio over IP systems going to work for quality transmission of music? Or is that more a factor of the particular speakers we get? It's an art school, so potential for expansion and leaving room for creative use is definitely a consideration.

 

[esmphoto]

Thanks again for all the help so far. I'm going to try and define the need a little more and bring back more specifics in the next day or two.

How does the cost for setting up (equipment + installation) Audio over IP generally compare with 70 volt?

Also, are both 70 volt and Audio over IP systems going to work for quality transmission of music? Or is that more a factor of the particular speakers we get? It's an art school, so potential for expansion and leaving room for creative use is definitely a consideration.

I'd say Audio over IP probably has a much higher starting cost than 70v, although depending on how large the campus is copper wiring, amps and transformers can all start to add up quick on a standard system. (this is assuming you already have a network infrastructure that can support the addition of the audio over IP network, if not the costs will be very very high)

I don't know what type of codecs an audio over IP system would use, but i would assume its at least on par with standard loudspeakers. 70v transmission is known for killing your lows and highs, although I thing it does okay, as long as you manage you expectations appropriately. It's no Bose line array but most speakers will reproduce audio fairly clearly.

Do note that if the speakers are mounted in a drop tile ceiling without the proper back can it can create a sort of metallic booming echo, but as long as they have insulated back cans they're fine.

Also know that in some parts of the states 70v is considered high voltage wiring and must be carried in conduits, check your state and city electrical code (its not down here where I am.)