Help this non-techie :)

Hi experts!
I am a director of a drama program and we finally have a small nest egg of profits to spend on what we feel is the best investment at this time which we think are wireless mice. We usually rent them for $3800 for 5 days. We feel that owning them will save us money.

We use wireless, head worn, small almost lavaliere size with a belt pack. I know that we will need a receiver rack(?)

Please advise as to what is the best bang for our buck and what brand and what type of rack etc that we need.

Like I said, we rent this stuff usually so I haven't paid that much attention to them.

Thanks in advance!
 
Thought I would give a little more information.

We are a volunteer organization that puts on an annual production. Most recently, we did The Little Mermaid with 225 actors between the ages of 5-11. We raised 28k this year to put the show on so it is not a typical elementary school show. with that many kids its a lot like herding cats.

We mic only the leads. We had 21 mics this time. we have currently NO equipment of our own.

My day job is accounting :) I literally don't have experience with anything other that what we rent
 
Talk to your audio tech and ask them what they prefer. Also look back through your rental information, they should have actual model numbers listed, if not ask the rental house and they will probably tell you. And the rental house may be willing to sell you the exact units you have used previously for pretty cheap, just ask.
 
$100/channel/week is the going weekly rental rate in New York. This includes a body pack, receiver, and rf coordination. This does not include a lav, which are considered a perishable run cost. My math would say
 
$100/channel/week is the going weekly rental rate in New York. This includes a body pack, receiver, and rf coordination. This does not include a lav, which are considered a perishable run cost. My math would say

My iPhone and controlbooth don't get along when it comes to posting...

Anyhow, my math would say that you are getting a good savings, as 21 channels would come out to $2,100/wk. Purchasing microphones, assuming you're getting a Countryman B3, which is the most inexpensive mic I'd put on a show that is still rugged and decent-sounding, comes out to a little more than $4,000 bringing your total to around $6,100 sans taxes.

RF is expensive, good RF is more expensive. A lavaliere is a decent cost, and essentially disposable. A great lavaliere is expensive, and just as disposable.

The most inexpensive system I'd look at is the Sennehiser ew100 G3 stuff, ew300 if you can spring for it -- hopefully your rental units are as good if not better and hopefully your rental shop is coordinating the wireless for worry-free operation.
 
Talk to your audio tech and ask them what they prefer. Also look back through your rental information, they should have actual model numbers listed, if not ask the rental house and they will probably tell you. And the rental house may be willing to sell you the exact units you have used previously for pretty cheap, just ask.
My iPhone and controlbooth don't get along when it comes to posting...

Anyhow, my math would say that you are getting a good savings, as 21 channels would come out to $2,100/wk. Purchasing microphones, assuming you're getting a Countryman B3, which is the most inexpensive mic I'd put on a show that is still rugged and decent-sounding, comes out to a little more than $4,000 bringing your total to around $6,100 sans taxes.

RF is expensive, good RF is more expensive. A lavaliere is a decent cost, and essentially disposable. A great lavaliere is expensive, and just as disposable.

The most inexpensive system I'd look at is the Sennehiser ew100 G3 stuff, ew300 if you can spring for it -- hopefully your rental units are as good if not better and hopefully your rental shop is coordinating the wireless for worry-free operation.


Because I need my hand held and I openly admit that I am a pain in the ass…. We are paying $3800 for 5 days. so you are saying that buying would save us money? I went back and looked at what we had listed on the rental agreement and it said we were using Sony mics. it didnt give us any more specific description than that.

Where would y'all suggest that we look to purchase? Amazon? I think we have $4,000+/-

Thanks
 
5-day-week and 6-day-week rental contracts are the standard depending on the company you're dealing with. I am saying buying woulrd cost a ton more money and be a huge pain unless you had a dedicated sound tech who knew their stuff when it came to RF and setup. I wouldn't exactly trust someone giving you Sony lavs, can't say they make any notably good microphones.

Let's do some math. You want 20 wireless microphones, 20 receivers, and 20 beltpacks. Models like the Shure SLX don't support that many packs in their range, so you need to bump up to something a little more robust -- I'll use the Sennheiser ew100 G3 as a starting point because it is relatively inexpensive, has good operation, and is fairly tolerant of abuse. You can purchase a new transmitter/receiver combo with a basic lavaliere for between $550-$680, bringing your pre-tax total to $11,000. You will want a few spare lavalieres as they will die, it is not a matter of when. A countryman B3, which is a little more tolerant of abuse than the ME-2 that the ew100 kits ships with is around $198 a mic.

For purchasing browse fullcompass and b&h photo.
 
If you know nothing about sound systems as you claim, you may want to consider going through a company that can assemble all of your receivers into a rack for you. These companies often can get better quantity discounts than you can on your own so that you end up getting much more help for your money. Wrangling the cords on 20 receivers can get Very complicated, Very quickly. You will want them to be rack mounted. I'm not sure where you are in the world, but there is bound to be a distributor in your area that can assist you with your specific needs.
 
Thanks guys!

One more question: this Sennheiser …. how many mics can it support? Im wondering if we purchase some, that can supplement what we rent? Over 3 years we have spent 12k so it would seem that starting to purchase some would save us in the long run??

Ok so if we don't purchase the mics, what would Y'all recommend we buy for around $4k? Yes we have to spend the money or lose it (thanks PTA - not!)
 
Short version, Sara, of what they're trying to tell you is this:

Once you get above about 4 wireless mics, it's a system, and to get it to work reliably, it needs to be "designed" -- choice of gear, frequencies, amps, splitters and external antennas; it's not really a simple process at that scale.

This is the primary reason why it's not cheap.

Since you've been paying $4k to rent that many channels, I'm sure you can understand why it will be difficult to *buy* that many channels for that amount of money. The only practical way I can see to accomplish it would be to find someone who *is* a competent stage/concert sound guy, and pay him to chase down a setup someone is about to replace for upgrade that is of sufficient quality; it sounds like you won't be able to do it new, nor can you "save up" until you can.

It's a not uncommon corner to be in.
 
What hasn't been brought into this discussion yet is that in about 3-5 years, those mics may need to be replaced. The tiny mics that work with beltpack wireless systems are not invincible and while there are a great many threads on this site devoted to determining which is the most dependable, all of them can and will be broken by general use given enough time. Especially by the younger ones. By purchasing your own set, you need to also factor in and anticipate the repair costs of that set. I work in a high school theatre and in the past 6 months we've lost one with 2-3 more starting to go out. We run a total of 14 beltpacks total of various make and use them about 7-8 times per year for various groups that request them.

Also, the FCC not too long ago rescinded a large portion of the bandwidth that wireless mics operate in, which made almost every single theatre, church and school with microphones operating within the now illegal bandwidth have to replace their systems. I can't speak on the likelihood of something like that occurring again, but it would be a tremendous expense. The danger with eBay and Amazon is there's less of a guarantee that you're buying a setup that operates in the legal bandwidth too.

It sounds like you do this event once per year and the rest of the time you might have one or two things that crop up that it would be useful to have a set of bodypacks? My wife teaches elementary and does shows as well. The problems I've encountered is that unless you have someone who is rabidly ferocious about protecting and maintaining wireless mics in a primary school environment, stuff will go missing. People unfamiliar with the setup will lose mics, packs, etc. and then you end up with a closet full of audio equipment that doesn't altogether not work together. I've trained her to be bitterly aggressive about protecting their hardware, but stuff happens.

If you were in a school and did 2-3 shows per year, I'd say buy as many mics as you think you can maintain or would need for the majority of your events. Listen to the advice about the frequencies. Reputable manufacturers and resellers will educate you on which models will fit your needs (especially if you plan on expanding in the future and/or supplementing with rental equipment). Having a small set of wireless that you own will be handy and save some money on rental when you need more for your big shows.

If this is a once a year deal though, I would probably say just stick with the rental as appealing as buying sounds (and especially if you're not having technical issues with renting). With renting, you're paying for that rental guy to guarantee that all those mics work in that environment at the right time and without failure. It's like insurance in a sense. If you buy, there's no one there in the middle of pre-show while your hundreds of kids are standing on stage while feedback is blasting through the house because the gain is too high on half the packs and the other half of the mics don't even work because they weren't tuned to the receivers right. If they don't work and they're rented, you pick up the phone and it "should" be fixed. Assuming the renter is respectable.

I would definitely consider shopping around for rental companies though, especially given the Sony mic comment. On a professional scale, I don't think I've ever seen anyone using that make equipment. Names like Shure, Sennheiser and Audio-Technica will be a bit safer bet. A lot of their websites can also educate you on which frequencies will work in your area. If you buy 21 microphones but in a frequency band that only has 18 open bands in your area because there are TV stations using the rest, it's not going to work properly and that's not something that can be fixed easily.

The biggest piece of advice I can give you is to do your homework before you buy and don't buy on pressure of the deadline. If it's too close, rent this year and do more homework. My biggest pet peeve/general fear in life is when people in education or church settings spend money before they know what they need. It seems to happen so frequently with children-groups, schools, etc. when a group with money decides they don't like how the production sounds and just starts buying stuff. I literally just went through this with my wife's school who has a PTA with $2k to burn and a bad taste in their mouth because they have crappy off-brand wireless mics that don't work through a brick wall. They were about to just start buying mics without even considering frequency issues when I got involved.

It keeps me awake at night...:wall:

Other questions that come to mind-

What type of venue is this performed at?
What sort of audio equipment is provided by the venue? (Speakers? Amps? Mixer?)
What sort of staffing is provided by the venue?
Do you have a technical director/audio guru-type person associated with your non-profit?
 
Thank you for all of the helpful information. I knew nothing about that. And it drives me INSANE (like seriously crazy) that the PTA has our money any they are prohibited from letting us save it until next year. Its a use it or lose it scenario. That is a whole nutha topic though. We have $5000 total to spend on the rights for next years show (less than 1K) and some sort of capital expenditure or we lose the moolah. Is there a smaller wireless mic system with amp that we could purchase to use in rehearsals at the school ?

We have a 9 year history and this years income was about 28K. We had 225 kids in the production. Its all volunteers. Its a massive undertaking!

To answer your other questions:
Other questions that come to mind-

What type of venue is this performed at? We rent a county owned theatre. Its 550 seats.
What sort of audio equipment is provided by the venue? (Speakers? Amps? Mixer?) NONE! We have to rent everything separate. We have used a local company for lighting and sound for the last 6 years. And then a separate rental company for the mic systems.
What sort of staffing is provided by the venue? A Janitor! Thats all. We pay a ton in labor costs. This year we had to get parent volunteers to run spots (which as you can imagine was horrific)
Do you have a technical director/audio guru-type person associated with your non-profit?[/quote] I have a technical director, yes. Guru? no. She is a musician in a Christian Band. Thats as close as we get to professional.

This year we had a digital board which was AWESOME! We had a $20,000 (or so I was told) donation of equipment and labor for lighting and this digital board. It made the mic situation much better (since kids keep chatting when they go off stage no matter how many times I tell them to SHHH!)

Thanks for your advice!
 
So, what is pushing you in the direction of buying your own equipment? It sounds like you all have established a pretty remarkable network of entertainment rental companies to put on this event and are extremely successful. If the PTA is still happy paying the rental fees, you've got your sound and lighting guys, parents running follow spots isn't that bad. Reading back through your posts, it seems like the idea that spurred this inquiry was the fact that you guys are really successful at this event and are making money.

So, here's what I would do. Call your audio and lighting contractors/operators and figure out what equipment you're using exactly. Find out what they would like to get to make things go smoother. Get model numbers, etc. Talk to a reseller (like Full Compass or B&H that were suggested) and ask what they would recommend would work within the scope of your vision as well as be compatible with the rental equipment. I can't speak on behalf of B&H, but I've paid Full Compass' electrical bill a few times and they have some very knowledgeable reps who will take the time to figure what you need if you ask. With those people all talking to you, it should start to paint a picture of what you actually need. Maybe it's beltpacks and mics? Maybe it's a portable PA system that is designed for that venue? I don't know. At this point, I'd have to actually see what you're using in the space to make a specific recommendation, but it sounds like you've got some people involved with this event that would have good ideas on how to improve things. I'm guessing you have people volunteering or hired to run the lights and sound for you? Those people need to be a part of this discussion too. And if those people are attached to the equipment that you're renting/borrowing, do you have a crew to replace them if you buy your own equipment? I might open a can of worms by saying this, but a follow spot is a mite easier to operate than a digital audio console.

Last but not least, you're grossing $28,000 off a one-time event and getting an alleged $20k worth of gear donated?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
 
I just got a quote for an 8 unit system to add on to my current system. Looking to be about $10,000. At that rate, doing one show a year, it would take you 7 years before you start saving money. At that point, you are going to have replaced almost all of the microphone units at least once and are going to have other elements failing on you.

I would echo what Strad said with If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

That being said, I like the idea of a portable system with one or two mics that you could use for rehearsal. I would definitely give the guys at fullcompass a call and see what they recommend.

Lastly, I always threaten that if I can't trust the actors to not talk when they are off stage, that they will lose the privilege of having a microphone. Doesn't work for all of them, but make one or two go a rehearsal without a mic and see if things don't start changing :twisted:
 
Thanks again.

What is pushing this is that we have to spend our profits by May 6th or we lose them. PTA basically holds our money for us. They don't pay anything for us. We are self-sufficient, but aren't allowed our own bank account (again, a whole other PITA that I am currently trying to remedy)

And I do threaten them to Shhhh! Only one said something this year and it was about having to go to the bathroom! Yikes!

We don't have any mics to rehearse with so our kids don't put a mic on until the tech rehearsal. Thus, why we needs some for rehearsals. I will definitely look into that company.
 
[quote="sara stark, post: 304504,

Where would y'all suggest that we look to purchase? Amazon? I think we have $4,000+/-

Thanks[/quote]
Contact your local troxell dealer rep, you will get discounted pricing. In my case great service. We just added 12 new shure receivers/transmitters with countryman ear mount and hair mount
 
How about investing in some ancillary equipment? A large stock of rechargeable batteries and chargers, a rolling cart/station for mic storage, dressing, and cleaning, and a stockpile of frequently used items ("sheaths", mic belts, 99% alcohol, tegaderm, etc.)?

You might not quite get to the $4000 mark, but you might. And most of that stuff you could argue is a capital expense, as it will be used over and over again.
 

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