Design House Lighting Retrofit

[TyeDye]

Hello everyone,

I've been reading through all the threads I can find and trying to sort through all the calculations and recommendations people have put forth about house light replacements. Let me give some background into the space I'm working on.

The auditorium is an 800 seat space, currently lit by 750 Watt ETC PARnel's spaced 18' on center. They form a square grid of 6 lights by 6 lights. The grid height for the house is 25'. I'm trying to write a grant to upgrade our existing house and work lights to LED or at least more energy efficient fixtures. The issue I'm running into is finding a suitable fixture to replace the existing set up that can cover the area. I've looked up the data sheets on the 750 Watt PARnel's and they supposedly put out around 118 fc or 1266 lux per light for a 25' throw.

Should I use those values to try and find a replacement fixture? I've been looking for a few weeks and have only found a few fixtures that can come close, those being the ELAR Quad Par from Elation and the ELAR 216 PANEL DW from Elation. I've looked at the Altman Chalice lights, but they don't seem to be able to put out enough light for a 25' throw unless I space them about every 5'. Does anyone have any experience with either of these fixtures or know of any similar fixtures? Also, is 1300 lux too bright for house lights?

Sorry for the long post, I just have many questions. I've looked into replacing our existing work lights with several of the Times Square Lighting 150W open faced work lights. Can anyone speak about how well these units work? Are they reliable and are they bright or with a 25' throw are they not powerful enough?

I've thought about the benefits of having a direct replacement fixture vs having to run a DMX control cable to the house to control the new lights and I think the DMX control would be cheaper and better than buying house lights that are dimmable using the dimmers. I'm thinking about switching out dimmers with either CRM or Relays and then controlling them with a UNISON panel during work shifts and an ETC board during the shows. Is setting up such a DMX cabling system difficult and what would it require?

Thank you for any input or advice, I'll answer any questions or posts as soon as I can.

 

[icewolf08]

I have seen the Altman Chalice, and it is pretty darn bright and has lens options like a PAR. We tested it at a 36' throw with no lenses and it is pretty wide and very bright. at 25' with your spacing you will probably need the widest lens they make, but it would probably work. I was very impressed by it's performance in our space.

 

[mstaylor]

I doon't know what your budget is but LEDs can get pricey. I haven't used these but it is an option. Desire LED luminaires - Fixture Design - New ETC Lighting Fixtures

 

[lwinters630]

There is a lot of info at http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/29448-led-house-light-retro-fit.html

The one thing that seems to be the biggest is the dimming from 10% to 0 is still a "ruff" issue. None of the options are a simple swap out bulbs, which means that I will need to get electrical contractors, permits and relays. For me access to mounting points will require special lifts or scaffolds if there is a problem in the future.

 

[FMEng]

OK, I'm more of audio guy, but it seems to me like your target levels are rather bright. 1000 lux would be typical for a medical exam room. All you need is enough light to read the program and find a seat number. It seems like 50-200 lux would be more like it. Besides, with less light you won't have to keep the seats as clean.

 

[RickR]

I've demo'ed an Affineon DL4000. Seems pretty solid and put out a lot of light, but we've had trouble working with the company. I have yet to see the final state of the one project that got them installed.
In my searching I skipped all the multicolor fixtures. Their whites are usually not top quality, and if you tweak it to a nice warm you usually lose output. Plus they tend to cost more than single color equipment.

Haven't seen the new Altman. Probably should...

 

[techieman33]

I've demo'ed an Affineon DL4000. Seems pretty solid and put out a lot of light, but we've had trouble working with the company. I have yet to see the final state of the one project that got them installed.
In my searching I skipped all the multicolor fixtures. Their whites are usually not top quality, and if you tweak it to a nice warm you usually lose output. Plus they tend to cost more than single color equipment.

Haven't seen the new Altman. Probably should...

I think color or no color really depends on the venue. If your straight theater then no color probably makes sense. If you also host a lot of concerts, fundraisers, etc. in your room having house lights that can change color could add a lot to an event.

 

[dgourley]

Hey guys. Just wanted to weigh in as we are doing a tremendous amount of LED Houselight replacements at the moment with Chalice. Here are the two links to the products for both Recessed and Pendant applications:

Altman Lighting: New LED Downlight-The Chalice
Altman Lighting: New LED Recessed Chalice Downlight

Here are the highlights that separate us from everyone:
Control options: DMX (of Course), Mains Dimmable from 100>4% (SCR Forward Phase, think D20's) & 0<10v as options.
Array Options: 3K Warm White, 3K6 Variable White, RGBA, RGBW. We even do customs like half white/half blue, etc.
Wattages: 50W at 6" or 100W @ 8"
Mounting methods: Recessed or Pendant w/ Stem/Aircraft/Ball/Strut, etc.

As some have mentioned that have demoed them in their space, they are bright and have become quite a compelling option just like Spectra CYC to lower overall electrical load in a space. Like all Altman products they are convection cooled.

Let me know if you have any questions or would like to see a demo.

 

[dgourley]

I have seen the Altman Chalice, and it is pretty darn bright and has lens options like a PAR. We tested it at a 36' throw with no lenses and it is pretty wide and very bright. at 25' with your spacing you will probably need the widest lens they make, but it would probably work. I was very impressed by it's performance in our space.

Thanks, Alex. Did Peter Maurelli bring it by? I think it would do great in your space!

 

[TyeDye]

Thanks everyone for the replies and the input. The rough dimming from 0 to 10% is not an issue for our venue because we rarely completely take out the house. We like to glow the house at around 15 or 20% in order to allow the older people in the house light enough to see if they have to get up during performances. I think I've browsed through a lot of the options and now I'm working on the details of each specific fixture to find out which would work the best.

My next issue is the DMX control. We only have conventional dimmer controlled fixtures and therefore no DMX connections over stage or the house. How would one create a DMX network above the house and stage to control the newer LED fixtures that have DMX inputs? I know that a lot of them can be daisy chained together, but if I have different types of fixtures, like an LED house light system and an LED cyc light system, would I need a splitter at the house to send DMX to the house units and to send DMX to the cyc lights? Is there a maximum run length for DMX or a maximum number of units that can be daisy chained together?

 

[lwinters630]

How would one create a DMX network above the house and stage to control the newer LED fixtures that have DMX inputs?

An ETC network will allow you to split the DMX to the different areas. If the DMX is daisy chained and something goes dead halve way through the run, everything past that will stop. Terminators may be required at the end of each run. I think the Unison will handle one universe, so if you are running them house panel and console you will need to consider how many addresses are available. Many dimmers racks are already on universe 1. The network uses cat6 cables to reach the nodes so, I don't think you will come close to exceeding cable length, but use a high quality "data" cable.

ETC will help you spec the setup, call ETC or your local supplier.

I just put in a ETC network to all my electrics and catwalks and run it through the ION board. They can be addressed to different universes remotely from a laptop.

 

[Les]

My next issue is the DMX control. We only have conventional dimmer controlled fixtures and therefore no DMX connections over stage or the house. How would one create a DMX network above the house and stage to control the newer LED fixtures that have DMX inputs? I know that a lot of them can be daisy chained together, but if I have different types of fixtures, like an LED house light system and an LED cyc light system, would I need a splitter at the house to send DMX to the house units and to send DMX to the cyc lights? Is there a maximum run length for DMX or a maximum number of units that can be daisy chained together?

I believe select models of the Altman Chalice can run off regular dimmed power if you're content with an all-white option and don't want to run DMX over the house.

 

[RickR]

Re: House Lighting Retrofit - DMX network

My next issue is the DMX control. We only have conventional dimmer controlled fixtures and therefore no DMX connections over stage or the house. How would one create a DMX network above the house and stage to control the newer LED fixtures that have DMX inputs? I know that a lot of them can be daisy chained together, but if I have different types of fixtures, like an LED house light system and an LED cyc light system, would I need a splitter at the house to send DMX to the house units and to send DMX to the cyc lights? Is there a maximum run length for DMX or a maximum number of units that can be daisy chained together?

This could easily be a separate thread. You've asked some basic questions, so the short answer is to get some detailed technical help. A local dealer, a neighborly ME or TD or a paid consultant are all good options.

DMX is usually limited to: 1500' and 32 devices. There are lots of devices to get around these and other limits, including merging house light control with the performance control.

General Options:

1. Extend the existing DMX (if a DMX system) from the dimmer rack up to the house ceiling. Not a DYI solution.
2. Split the DMX at the console, or use a second output if you have one. You might even use a wireless DMX link to save on install costs.
3. Install a full ethernet system with DMX gateways. Hard wired is best, but having a WIFI link into your lighting can be really useful. This also allows for tremendous expansion later.
4. Use the existing dimmers and non-DMX fixtures.
5. Install a completely separate house lighting control. NOT my favorite, but it might work for you!

Note that most of these will leave you with unused dimmers. Getting wires from those back to the stage areas could be a big side benefit.​

A further thought. If you are serious about getting into LED stage lights, take a long look at your console. You can max out a 96 or 192 channel console very quickly! Getting DMX onto the stage will be really important too.

 

[JohnD]

Re: House Lighting Retrofit - DMX network

As long as you are thing of led, there are a couple of other contenders:
LED Dimming 100 Watt Fresnel House Light

Also, this new item from Chroma-Q:
Inspire - Energy Efficient, Colour Changing LED House Light | Chroma-Q

 

[STEVETERRY]

Hello everyone,

I've been reading through all the threads I can find and trying to sort through all the calculations and recommendations people have put forth about house light replacements.

If you are going to use DMX control, you may also want to consider how you'll handle emergency lighting. ETC has a new device to help with this, the DMX Emergency Bypass Controller:

Lighting solutions for Theatre, Film & Television Studios and Architectural spaces : ETC

ST

 

[TyeDye]

In response to some questions and concerns raised, we have a relatively new ETC Element 40 with the 500 channel upgrade option. We currently only have 384 dimmers and about 15 of these would be freed up by switching the house lights over to DMX control. The emergency lighting is handled by a separate set of fixtures that has its own permanently installed box near the dimmer racks.

I'm really interested in the Chroma Q Inspire house lights, as the color changing options appeal to the space as we have a variety of renters. The problem I have with them is being able to integrate a new DMX network into the existing Unison control system. Our dimmer racks and Unison are installed in an electrical room on a floor below the stage. As mentioned before, there is no easy DIY way to connect a new DMX run to the dimmer rack and Unison. I think right now I'm going to pursue the Altman Chalice as they have a mains dimmable option and will be the easiest to integrate with the existing lighting structure. The reason for this is that sometimes for ease of writing cues we will put the house lights on the Unison to avoid writing them into cues or subs and if they were DMX controlled we would lose this ability. I will probably end up installing a DMX network into the catwalk and then drop a DMX cable either to the booth or the backstage position to control any intelligent or LED fixtures outside of the house lights.