HPL adaptor "The Sink"

[Scenemaster60]

In digging through a box a lamp odds and ends at one of the venues where I regularly work, I encountered this curious piece of equipment. It appears to be a cast aluminum adaptor which allows you to use a g9.5 base lamp (such as the GLA) in a HPL socket. It has "The Sink (TM)" and "Phillips" in the casting.

I had heard that these existed, but had never encountered one. Does anyone know the history of this little device and if they are still available? A cursory internet search didn't turn anything up.

I have a possible NON-Source Four application for which this could be useful...

 

[Les]

I purchased a few dozen of these around 12 years ago as a high school student. I believe they came with Philips GLA lamps (which had been ordered for our [awful] Strand SL's. I initially freaked out thinking I had ordered the wrong ones. They seemed pretty great, but I think they were taken off the market due to copyright disputes. Now that the HPL is "fair game", I'm surprised that they aren't resurfacing. Maybe it has something to do with the Source Four not technically being rated for this type of lamp?

I never used them in Source Fours since we didn't have any in our inventory, so I don't know how they held up in that application. I occasionally work with a community theatre who has a Shakespeare/Phoenix/Source Four mix ((seriously - someone needs to take charge of ordering instruments around there)) and a bunch of these heat sinks could probably be useful to keep one lamp type in stock. I always wished I had saved a few.

 

[Amiers]

I have a bunch of them in our Elation OptiPars or something similar atleast. Let me tell you what, trying to get a lamp out of that after it has expanded is a PITA. It's basically ripping the lamp out of the base and prying it out of the sink.

 

[Scenemaster60]

I have been doing what Colin suggests on several inventories that I maintain here in the Twin Cities. It's a real PITA. I have played with the HPL kit and I personally don't like how the beam looks. The fact that the S4 lamp filaments are not in a tight plane like the BTL/BTN/... lamps causes the field to be splotchy, especially at flood.

Now, as I sit here typing this it occurs to me that one thing I might try is putting a late-generation med bipin lamp like a GLA into one of the kits. That filament design is much closer in geometry to a BTL/BTN filament and the height of the filament assembly is ALMOST identical. I realize that the bases of those lamps are smaller and that there would be a much greater risk of lamps working their way loose since it would be only the tension of the contact pins holding them in. Experiments will be performed and I will get back to you all!

My idea was to try and find some of those to use with "HPL retrofit" kit that goes into Altman 65Q fresnels.
We all know of the trouble that the "new" style medium prefocus lamps and sockets are experiencing. And I noted in my post from last fall, the HPL lamp just doesn't look all that good in the 65Q, especially at full flood.

Derek took a very good pic in that thread comparing the filaments of an HPL, a GLC and a BTN and you can see that the filament geometry of the GLC is much closer to that of the BTN than is the HPL

At first I didn't believe you, but after investigating, it just might work. My skepticism may have come from poor results with EHG/EHD lamped Fresnels. If the socket can support a GLC, and if the retrofit relector is not tailored specifically to the unique HPL filament layout, it's a great idea. Let us know how/if it works.

View attachment 12706

 

[ship]

Was a concept back in the past and I have a few of the Phillips lamp adaptors also, but the HPL filament was superior and there was legal issues. Only real use and question would be in the use if a Osram HPR lamp with Philips HPL/GLA heat sink adaptor in if it can be a better output such a standard 575w HPL = higher output lamp. Now that's a good challenge in given a FLK lamp filament concept for the HPR - but with internal reflector, can it best a standard HPL lamp?

That and if and when now that the HPL filament is out of patent, when the internal refledctor to it so as to complete the ellipse finishes that overall concept. When will such a completion of the ellipse curve be completed by the lamp again. This by way of internal reflector. (liquid filled lamps....)

Ushio just came out with 3,000 hour HPL lamps by the way in industry notings. http://www.ushio.com/products/entertainment/h-hpl-superlife.php

 

[DELO72]

The Source Four design (reflector, etc.) was based on four (or six for high-volt) filaments that were equidistant from each other in a box layout. The GLC uses a C13D filament, which is four filaments offset in a row. The BTN uses a C13 design which is four filaments in a straight line.


The C13/C13D design works well in a Parabolic [Correction-- SPHERICAL] reflector like a Fresnel uses, as it fills the center of the reflector and is focused back. The HPL design wouldn't collect as well in that reflector, and is designed for the Ellipsoidal reflector of the Source four (the patent referenced not just the fixture or the lamp, but the combination of the two in conjunction with one another.

 

[Scenemaster60]

Mark,

That all makes perfectly good sense. Thanks for the technical information.

I presume that the HPL retrofit kit for the Altman Fresnels was a move to capitalize on the fact that nearly every theatre nowadays keeps a stock of HPL lamps on hand? Only having to stock 1 lamp for your entire lighting inventory is a very attractive proposition!

 

[microstar]

The Source Four design (reflector, etc.) was based on four (or six for high-volt) filaments that were equidistant from each other in a box layout. The GLC uses a C13D filament, which is four filaments offset in a row. The BTN uses a C13 design which is four filaments in a straight line.


The C13/C13D design works well in a Parabolic reflector like a Fresnel uses, as it fills the center of the reflector and is focused back. The HPL design wouldn't collect as well in that reflector, and is designed for the Ellipsoidal reflector of the Source four (the patent referenced not just the fixture or the lamp, but the combination of the two in conjunction with one another.

I don't believe there has ever been a Fresnel made that uses a parabolic reflector, but I could be wrong. They have always been spherical.

 

[Les]

Seems like "The Sink" adapter would have theoretically allowed someone to put a 1000w FEL in a Source Four. Pretty scary now that I think about it.

 

[Scenemaster60]

Actually, Les you still can.

I have run into Source Four ellipsoidals that some nitwit had lamped with EHGs.
The lamp base is not properly supported, but the lamp will fit into the socket and as log as pins are reasonably tight it will stay in the socket. Light does come out of the other end of the instrument, but the beam quality is awful.

 

[ship]

Anyone ever seen a 1Kw BTR lamp in a 6" Fresnel before? This other than a 1KAL Altman? Granted a FEL would be more common to see backstage on a stage where idiot proofing is already hard.

Thanks Mark on the filament info!

 

[Les]

I understand what you guys are saying. It had just occurred to me how The Sink adapter allowed one to (conveniently) use such a wildly incorrect lamp in a fixture that was really designed for only one lamp type - including the 575w only version. Quite a jump when usually it's not much more than a 360Q running an FEL that makes us flinch.

 

[techieman33]

Anyone ever seen a 1Kw BTR lamp in a 6" Fresnel before? This other than a 1KAL Altman? Granted a FEL would be more common to see backstage on a stage where idiot proofing is already hard.

Thanks Mark on the filament info!

I run BTR's in my 6" strand fresnellites.

 

[DELO72]

I don't believe there has ever been a Fresnel made that uses a parabolic reflector, but I could be wrong. They have always been spherical.

WHOOPS! Correct. My brain said Spherical, and my fingers typed Parabolic. Sadly, my brain also deserves some of the blame for not immediately noticing and saying, "Hey fingers-- go back and correct that error!" Sorry about that everyone. Old age is coming early to me.... SPHERICAL reflector, not Parabolic. Doh.

 

[Scenemaster60]

I run BTR's in my 6" strand fresnellites.

Yeah, there is a whole class of 1K 6" fresnels. Altman makes one (with that damned lever for spot/flood that never stays put), Stand has (had?) the Fresnellite, Colortran offered at least two models and I'm sure I'm missing others. Those are the three that I encounter on a regular basis.

Ship is correct, though, that a BTR in the Altman 65Q is NOT a good idea. In fact I think that the 750 is even borderline for a fixture with ventilation designed for a 500 watt T20 lamp back in the 1950s! In houses that use 750 I see constant maintenance issues, in houses that run only 500s I see far fewer problems.

 

[Les]

Ship is correct, though, that a BTR in the Altman 65Q is NOT a good idea. In fact I think that the 750 is even borderline for a fixture with ventilation designed for a 500 watt T20 lamp back in the 1950s! In houses that use 750 I see constant maintenance issues, in houses that run only 500s I see far fewer problems.

I've never seen socket problems in a 65Q (mostly since I don't work in many spaces that use them), but I have come across some old 65Q's with burned reflectors. These were the brown models, and had a 2-piece reflector: a small reflector "cup" at the center of the filament, and a larger flat reflective sheet behind that. The reflector cup in several fixtures was dull and wilted like a flower. The bodies of the fixtures also showed heat discoloration around the yoke area.

The 1K with the focus lever... Yep, seen a few of those with bailing wire holding the focus. Worked with several dozen and had issues with that. They actually called me recently because 90% of their fresnel inventory has scorched sockets. Then there's their SL's with busted reflectors... No saving those.

 

[SteveB]

Yeah, there is a whole class of 1K 6" fresnels. Altman makes one (with that damned lever for spot/flood that never stays put), Stand has (had?) the Fresnellite, Colortran offered at least two models and I'm sure I'm missing others. Those are the three that I encounter on a regular basis.

Ship is correct, though, that a BTR in the Altman 65Q is NOT a good idea. In fact I think that the 750 is even borderline for a fixture with ventilation designed for a 500 watt T20 lamp back in the 1950s! In houses that use 750 I see constant maintenance issues, in houses that run only 500s I see far fewer problems.

In my experience, the 1KAF is borderline with a 750. A 1kw kills it regardless of how its marketed.

We long ago delegated our 1KAF's to 500 and have most certainly and about 15 years ago, purchased our last one.

 

[ship]

Oh' the 1KAL series was total crap probably as with much gear of its period from most brands. Cable tie to retain focus for me... Beam spread I remember was less also. Though back than for me... it was another light to add to my "art" for use - that "Old Rover" titled fixture I acquired from DesignLab Chicago and still have as part of museum.
to
Main point was that it would be rare someone would put a BTR lamp into a say Altman 65Q series fixture. Rare as point someone would do similar as topic with a FEL.

 

[RonHebbard]

I run BTR's in my 6" strand fresnellites.

I was, and probably still am, a big fan of the Ianiro 6" 1K Polaris and 6" 2K Bambino fresnels, especially when ordered with the larger Bambino four-way doors and color frames for both so all of the doors and frames matched such that any doors and frames properly fit both the 1K and 2K fresnels as well as our inventory of colors cut to fit one, fit either. Of course they had those darn 8 sided color frames but . . . The little Ianiro Mizar baby fresnels were seriously killer when fitted with the optional 500 Watt sockets. Of course you had to use C47's to clip your Lux out on the doors if you wanted it to survive for any length of time. I recall a designer who used to roll through regularly and insist on gelling the 6" 2K diagonal backs with Lux 59 which had to be replaced for every performance due to fading. We couldn't even get through a matinee day without having to replace all of the Lux 59. The 6" 2K Bambino's were seriously potent fixtures occupying a minimal amount of pipe space. Initially, there was a brief period where running them at maximum flood and full intensity would occasionally blow the lens out of them but Ianiro soon cured this by installing a stop slightly decreasing the maximum flood and providing a touch more breathing room between the 2K lamp and the rear of the lens. LXQ setting days meant having to stagger crew breaks to keep a few crew on to re-gel the 2K's during lunch and dinner breaks. Yeah, I guess I'll continue to profess Ianiro love.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[KeepOnTruckin]

Yeah, there is a whole class of 1K 6" fresnels. Altman makes one (with that damned lever for spot/flood that never stays put), Stand has (had?) the Fresnellite, Colortran offered at least two models and I'm sure I'm missing others. Those are the three that I encounter on a regular basis.

Ship is correct, though, that a BTR in the Altman 65Q is NOT a good idea. In fact I think that the 750 is even borderline for a fixture with ventilation designed for a 500 watt T20 lamp back in the 1950s! In houses that use 750 I see constant maintenance issues, in houses that run only 500s I see far fewer problems.

I have used both the Altman and the Colortran models you mentioned, and had problems with both on the focus not staying put. At least on the altman, you can stick a nut driver in the back and turn a screw that will increase the tightness. Too bad nobody knows about this feature!