Lighting Controller thoughts
- Thread starterDuckJordan
- Start date
I own my own consoles but half the time I end up renting a different one due to filling riders. A good used console to think about is an avo tiger or pearl, a hog 500 or 1000 (Aka jands echelon). Which I do have a nice echelon sitting in my garage that I would be willing to part with though it does need some work. The LCD is bad and it needs new key caps. Also in the around 500 range you could get a CP-100 it has two universes along with a fader wing if you can get lucky.
First thing I would do is to look for more money! You work for a non-profit, yes? Do your research and find some grant money. There is actually money out there for tech upgrades. It's worth the time and then you might have a couple of grand to spend instead of 400.
Do you have a grants writer on staff?
Do you have a grants writer on staff?
jglodeklights
Well-Known Member
Unless you are actually starting or run an official business, I don't think any bank is going to approve a loan for a college student to buy a lighting console that he hopes to rent. There is too much risk for the bank. Even if they did approve your loan, you would probably have a higher interest rate than you really want to pay.
It seems impractical to own a console for rent without actually running a full blown rental business. People like to one-stop-shop, it is easier and less paperwork. If that means they truck in their rig from the rental house that is 5 hours away, they will. The console itself might be more expensive, but many people won't turn their noses up at the price of convenience. Look at it this way, the big rental house probably has more than one console, that way, if the one they send out fails, they can replace it quickly. If you only own one console, what happens when it fails in the middle of a show? You have no backup. You really need at least two consoles in your inventory so that when there is a problem with one, you can easily drop in another. That simple lack of support has the potential to turn clients away before you start.
The other problem is that you only will be offering one choice. If it isn't what the shows want, you won't do any business. Magic-Q is becoming increasingly popular, but it still is not a particularly common system. There are plenty of tours and shows where the LD/programmer that comes with the show will want a particular desk, and if you don't have it, you won't get their business. A single unit rental inventory probably won't get you off the ground.
I don't mean to be a downer, but you have to look at all the angles when you want to start a business like that. As someone who has considered starting an official small business a few times I can say that it isn't easy and it isn't cheap. Without an official business you can't take any deductions for your "business" purchases on your taxes and as I said, getting a loan may not be easy. So make sure you consider all the ramification of what you want to do.
It seems impractical to own a console for rent without actually running a full blown rental business. People like to one-stop-shop, it is easier and less paperwork. If that means they truck in their rig from the rental house that is 5 hours away, they will. The console itself might be more expensive, but many people won't turn their noses up at the price of convenience. Look at it this way, the big rental house probably has more than one console, that way, if the one they send out fails, they can replace it quickly. If you only own one console, what happens when it fails in the middle of a show? You have no backup. You really need at least two consoles in your inventory so that when there is a problem with one, you can easily drop in another. That simple lack of support has the potential to turn clients away before you start.
The other problem is that you only will be offering one choice. If it isn't what the shows want, you won't do any business. Magic-Q is becoming increasingly popular, but it still is not a particularly common system. There are plenty of tours and shows where the LD/programmer that comes with the show will want a particular desk, and if you don't have it, you won't get their business. A single unit rental inventory probably won't get you off the ground.
I don't mean to be a downer, but you have to look at all the angles when you want to start a business like that. As someone who has considered starting an official small business a few times I can say that it isn't easy and it isn't cheap. Without an official business you can't take any deductions for your "business" purchases on your taxes and as I said, getting a loan may not be easy. So make sure you consider all the ramification of what you want to do.
DuckJordan
Touring IATSE Member
I'm sorry to point out a few holes in the issues here bits its for after college and no its not a non-profit. While some of the responses are great part of the post that is pretty much required reading has missed quite a few of some responders. So what I'm hearing is its a no unless its an all out rental house I'd be interested to hear the response of several rental house owners since I'm sure that they will sometimes out rent gear if they can't fill the rider.
Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk
Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk
I know of several professional programmers who own their own desks that do sub-rent them to larger shops when they are on another gig or otherwise not using it. Also when these programmers are hired for a gig and bring their own desk, they charge for the rental of the desk as well! Of course setting yourself up as an S-Corp business is the best route for this kind of thing, but all the paperwork and accounting comes with the territory.
Another consideration is when you own your desk, you are more likely to take better care of it than a lot of the larger shops and you know where it has been whether on tour or one-offs, so the chances of you needing a second backup console are very low unless a client specifically requests one. I have done many shows with one console and a PC-based backup just in case to save on space and money.
You can certainly buy two desks, but you are better off spending the coin on better equipment and maintain it yourself.
With that said and with your budget not being huge, Chamsys is an excellent deal and very affordable for the feature set. Granted Chamsys has not had a ton of traction here in the states, but the bang for the buck is great.
You can go the route of older but very capable gear (Hog 1k, Echelon, IPC, Avo, etc), but you are dealing with legacy equipment and an older feature set. An example would be that you can easily do LED matrix effects on a Chamsys but on a Hog 1k not so much.
MA2 is really hot right now and very hard to find. I have talked to folks who had to sub rent a MA2 from a shop 300 miles away because that is what was needed. Of course you pay top dollar for this gear but you get the idea.
Another consideration is when you own your desk, you are more likely to take better care of it than a lot of the larger shops and you know where it has been whether on tour or one-offs, so the chances of you needing a second backup console are very low unless a client specifically requests one. I have done many shows with one console and a PC-based backup just in case to save on space and money.
You can certainly buy two desks, but you are better off spending the coin on better equipment and maintain it yourself.
With that said and with your budget not being huge, Chamsys is an excellent deal and very affordable for the feature set. Granted Chamsys has not had a ton of traction here in the states, but the bang for the buck is great.
You can go the route of older but very capable gear (Hog 1k, Echelon, IPC, Avo, etc), but you are dealing with legacy equipment and an older feature set. An example would be that you can easily do LED matrix effects on a Chamsys but on a Hog 1k not so much.
MA2 is really hot right now and very hard to find. I have talked to folks who had to sub rent a MA2 from a shop 300 miles away because that is what was needed. Of course you pay top dollar for this gear but you get the idea.
bishopthomas
Well-Known Member
Okay, here goes. For the most part I agree with IceWolf. If you're not buying a truck full of gear to rent out then it's really not worth it to start a "business" and go through all of that. I also agree with LuxMax, though, in that if you own your console then you'll know it well and (hopefully) know how to maintain and repair it if necessary. Buy the console that YOU want to use. If you end up making a few bucks off of it great, but I wouldn't look at going into the rental business at this point. Good luck!
FWIW, I think this is probably a piece of advice that applies pretty well to your case. The key is that you really have to figure out what console you want to use. I had an MQ100Pro on loan from PRG for about a year and during that time I fell in love with it. When I had to give it back I ended up buying one for my personal use because that was the console that I wanted to you. I have also purchased tens of thousands of dollars in other lighting and projection equipment because I wanted to use it but couldn't find someone to rent it from. Most of this gear has paid for itself through rental to other people who wanted to use the gear but couldn't find it from a real rental house or by equipping me with marketable skills I wouldn't otherwise have. For example, I purchased a really expensive custom playback rig for running the media software Isadora. It hasn't even come close to paying for itself in rentals but it did give me the chance to use Isadora on every show I design projections for which, in turn, has made me really good as an Izzy programmer. I have recently landed a bunch of programming gigs for some interactive installations and that work has more then paid for the cost of the equipment. Conversely, I have a lot of sound gear that I have purchase over the years that has been a pretty poor business decision. Once I sell it all over the coming months I will have made a little money off of it but not nearly enough to justify the headaches I have had trying to manage it as a (really) small time rental business over the past few years. The difference between this and my first example is that I only had this gear because I wanted it to pay for itself directly. My point is this, buy what you need or want to do your job but don't expect to start a rental business unless you can really commit to starting a rental business.
DuckJordan
Touring IATSE Member
I guess I didn't make myself clear, this isn't for a rental business start up. I know by all means unless i can offer a full rig there isn't a point in buying equipment like that. This would be a console that I want to use, and be able to bring it along on gigs and such that I land and possibly end up using instead of using a rental gear and pay for it back. By no means am I trying to get a console to rent, this is for sole use by me but with the flexibility to rent it out if it comes up during a gig or while I own it. I'm leaning towards a chamsys system or grandMA system just because I have used the PC version of the chamsys and think it would excel more with the physical console than having to use a PC version. The GrandMA because it seems to be an industry standard and very popular among concert gigs around here.
bishopthomas
Well-Known Member
This is the only reason I know how to use Avolites consoles. I bought it, learned to use it, and now it's my console of choice. I don't have opportunities to play with other consoles so I don't know them, but I do know Avo. If I can rent it out great, but otherwise I use it on my shows and it's all I ever need.
This is exactly why I got into lighting. I've been a "sound guy" for almost 15 years, constantly trying to buy the gear that got work and made money. I eventually learned that it just wasn't possible (okay, possible but not likely) to have the gear actually make me money so I started buying lighting gear. The first pair of Mac250's started making me money in 4 rentals.
This doesn't seem like an unreasonable approach to things though I will echo what someone else said, which is that it isn't super likely that a bank is going to give you a roughly $20k loan to buy a light board. FWIW, using Chamsys with a good hardware setup is an entirely different (in a good way) experience than using the software without a wing or console. I would suggest though that, for personal use, you may find that getting something like the Maxi wing and a touchscreen computer will be a more economical and appropriate choice then getting a full MQ100Pro for over twice as much moeny. The Maxi wing has all the same hardware controls and the same number of DMX outputs (4) as the full board but it only costs around $6k including a road case versus the $17k+ of the full board and case. It is also much more portable. My Maxi wing travels in a Pelican case along with a computer and I can easily handle that by myself whereas my MQ100Pro requires two people to carry.
Last edited:
lightingguy1
Active Member
jglodeklights
Well-Known Member
Blackfaer
Member
Duck, I think you're on the right track looking at Chamsys. Get yourself a USB DMX Pro and you've got your first universe super cheap. Alternatively, in the Sub $1000 market, Light Factory is the major open source competitor with inexpensive fader wing you can get to plug into your laptop. That said, even that setup is still more like 3x your $400 budget. $400 just isn't really console pricing.
Otherwise, if you're looking at maybe more like $2000 for your first console, consider a Jands Vista wing with your laptop - that's a more high-end console software like a Grand MA without the price tag, at least not for your basic kit. But get comfortable with that and then when you have the funds you can more likely add a full-size Vista to your inventory.
As others have said, figure out what kind of console you want to use, and go that route - if people are wanting a specific console for a specific user, you can always sub-rent from Des Moines or St. Louis (or wherever you're close to) - but in the mean time, you need something cheap you're willing to use all the time for your gigs. Don't look at trying to rent out the console on its own without you until you've got a lot more funds to work with, because rental houses that rent consoles need to keep an inventory of several different consoles of different styles and price points.
If you think you'll be working with theatre venues and theatrical systems, take a look at that website on the Ion - their pricing is a STEAL. If I had $7000 to spend on a console for theatrical use, I'd be going straight to that vendor at that price - get a Ion plus a universal wing and you're set for a really good price. My Congo Jr is a comparable setup and was almost 50% more, and I got a good deal myself.
Otherwise, if you're looking at maybe more like $2000 for your first console, consider a Jands Vista wing with your laptop - that's a more high-end console software like a Grand MA without the price tag, at least not for your basic kit. But get comfortable with that and then when you have the funds you can more likely add a full-size Vista to your inventory.
As others have said, figure out what kind of console you want to use, and go that route - if people are wanting a specific console for a specific user, you can always sub-rent from Des Moines or St. Louis (or wherever you're close to) - but in the mean time, you need something cheap you're willing to use all the time for your gigs. Don't look at trying to rent out the console on its own without you until you've got a lot more funds to work with, because rental houses that rent consoles need to keep an inventory of several different consoles of different styles and price points.
If you think you'll be working with theatre venues and theatrical systems, take a look at that website on the Ion - their pricing is a STEAL. If I had $7000 to spend on a console for theatrical use, I'd be going straight to that vendor at that price - get a Ion plus a universal wing and you're set for a really good price. My Congo Jr is a comparable setup and was almost 50% more, and I got a good deal myself.
Similar threads
Control/Dimming
MIDI Controller for lighting
