Looooong Gig

[Ric]

Sorry if you feel I have offended you, but I take offense when people think their situation should be enforced upon everyone. There will always be long work days in this industry. Personal and family life will suffer. We are not paid as much as we think we should be. But it's the career and lifestyle we chose, it's the way it is, so get over it.

Knowing your personal limitations is being safe, whether it's from lack of sleep or lack of education. YOU are responsible for making that decision, not your employer. And if your employer forces you into ANY situation you're not comfortable in (not limited to working hours) you have every right to refuse and face the consequences. However, there will always be someone who can and will do what you refuse so you must be prepared for that.

I was going to leave this thread alone, I'd said my piece, and the points had been missed by some, however I can't let this pass.

THIS is the attitude that we have to change. It is NOT okay to work dangerously. When you are affected by fatigue or alcohol or drugs you LOSE YOUR JUDGEMENT therefore you can no longer make sensible and reponsible decisions. What you'd not consider doing hours earlier becomes 'if I do this I'll get the job done quicker...'. Much like beer goggles and 'that girl (or guy)' at the bar, you will choose things that after you'll shake your head about and say 'why the hell did I do that?'

I am not trying to 'enforce my situation on everybody' but raise real safety concerns. Are you aware driving drunk is dangerous? Then that job is done.
Passive smoking in clubs and restaurants is dangerous as well, at least here that has now been changed so these places are smoke free.
Is the message getting through that long working hours causes fatigue and is dangerous? Not yet.... Until someone gets hurt... or killed.
Stage collapses, seems to be a lot of them over the last few years...hmmm, perhaps someone was really tired and missed tightening something?

In this country your employer IS responsible for your well being in the workplace, and there is a legal body that prosecutes when things go wrong, and prosecutions start at the top and work down. This is making a big difference here; changing employers attitudes.

 

[SHARYNF]

The problem with this sort of analysis is that there is no quantification. It follows the logic that if x amount of something is bad then any amount of is is bad to the same degree

The direct equating of fatigue with no qualification to drinking or drugs also with no qualification is not very useful.

So until someone presents for a given individual how many hours of sleep loss equates to how much blood alcohol level for instance scientifically, the statements are anecdotal.

Sharyn

 

[shiben]

I think the point that some of us were taking issue with was the equating of working long hours to working drunk and that it was totally irresponsible.

While none of us LIKE to work insane hours, the situation is that on occasion it is necessary and we all learn our limits and how we deal with it

For instance it is part of the training program with doctors to force them to work these insane hours, and they are performing life threatening activities

It is very typical in an emergency to have fire or ems work extremely long hours

Most of us have been in a situation where for a variety of reasons to make the show happen we have had to put in long long hours.

If you look at the Silicon valley culture, having developers work 100 plus hours per week is not that unusual.

So I agree typically entertainment industry work entails crazy hours dealing with all sorts of people. So have I worked 30+ hours straight? you bet do I like it NO but when the production all comes together and meets the opening night curtain up time and everything works, I guess for some of us it has been "worth it"

Sharyn

If you want a real dangerous situation to be working... When the US Marine Corps invaded Iraq, a large number of units involved were on standby for a day or two (waiting for a go order at any minute, if they were sleeping it was in the turret of a tank or something), and then in the rapid push to Bagdad they rarely slept, staying up on energy drinks and caffeine pills for at least 6 days, sometimes more, on active alert, in full chemical weapons suits and combat gear. So we have extreme sleep deprivation, lots of weapons and explosives, and huge convoys of vehicles, sometimes driving very rapidly, and occasionally people shooting at them. Read Generation Kill, they had some good methods (fairly effective ones). Also its a great book. Not advocating this kind of work for effective theatrical work, but it is possible. Just not advisable.

 

[bishopthomas]

If you want a real dangerous situation to be working... When the US Marine Corps invaded Iraq, a large number of units involved were on standby for a day or two (waiting for a go order at any minute, if they were sleeping it was in the turret of a tank or something), and then in the rapid push to Bagdad they rarely slept, staying up on energy drinks and caffeine pills for at least 6 days, sometimes more, on active alert, in full chemical weapons suits and combat gear. So we have extreme sleep deprivation, lots of weapons and explosives, and huge convoys of vehicles, sometimes driving very rapidly, and occasionally people shooting at them. Read Generation Kill, they had some good methods (fairly effective ones). Also its a great book. Not advocating this kind of work for effective theatrical work, but it is possible. Just not advisable.

Exactly! And yet there are people here who think that my 30 hour fader pushing is going to kill someone. I just don't see the logic in where people spend their efforts. But to each his own...

 

[shiben]

Exactly! And yet there are people here who think that my 30 hour fader pushing is going to kill someone. I just don't see the logic in where people spend their efforts. But to each his own...

I think the point that everyone could get on board with is that we dont LIKE doing 30 hour days, and that we should try and do less if we can. However, sometimes it must be done, even though we dont like it, and realistically, thats the kind of thing they pay us for, to do insane amounts of work efficiently and well. At the gig in question, I am sure that there will not really be a whole ton of heavy lifting after load in until load out, which can probably be preceeded by a nap. I feel like the OP's question was more about how do I stay awake to make sure stuff does not get broken, rather than "we have a 30 hour load in where I will be the up rigger the entire time". Now, if what your doing is mainly hearding talent and running a hog or something, Im going to say that what would concern me is that the quality of the organization might suffer, and its not good for a person to do. However, I doubt there is much of a choice except napping during presenters or something. Lets be honest here, Im going to hazzard that every student on this site has at least once (or in many cases, many times), stayed up all night to write a paper and then gone to class the next day, and in many of our cases, gone to work the next day too. Its certainly dooable but not prefered. That seems to be what im hearing out of the thread.

 

[Ric]

The problem with this sort of analysis is that there is no quantification. It follows the logic that if x amount of something is bad then any amount of is is bad to the same degree

The direct equating of fatigue with no qualification to drinking or drugs also with no qualification is not very useful.

So until someone presents for a given individual how many hours of sleep loss equates to how much blood alcohol level for instance scientifically, the statements are anecdotal.

Sharyn

That's why there are blanket blood alcohol levels with driving. 0.05% in a lot of places. Alcohol DOES affect people at different levels, so a general value was used to cover the majority. Alcohol affects also vary from day to day on the same individual depending on such things as how recently you've eaten.

Part of the reason overtime penalty rates are in place, with such conditions such as a 10 hour break between working shifts, is to penalise the employer for attempting to make workers work with insufficient rest. There is a misconception that penalty rates are a reward for working long hours; they are compensation yes, but mostly supposed to be a deterrent to the employer.

There are a LOT of studies giving definitive results to prove fatigue affects are similar to alcohol, this is fact, not supposition. These studies go back well over a decade.
Google is your friend

sleep deprivation alcohol equivalent - Google Scholar

Moderate sleep deprivation produces impairments in cognitive and motor performance equivalent to legally prescribed levels of alcohol intoxication -- Williamson and Feyer 57 (10): 649 -- Occupational and Environmental Medicine

Cheers,
Ric

 

[Ric]

Exactly! And yet there are people here who think that my 30 hour fader pushing is going to kill someone. I just don't see the logic in where people spend their efforts. But to each his own...

You may not kill someone at the gig with your fader, but how about on the drive home? Or during the bump out...

If your fader pushing has a quality attached to it, then you certainly will not have the same critical listening & hearing qualiity that you would have if you were freshly rested. Your hearing is affected by fatigue as well.
Tonal balance, volume levels, all change as you become more tired.

Cheers,
Ric

 

[SHARYNF]

the issue is NOT that sleep deprivation can have an effect like alcohol but at what level. The studies seem to vary quite a bit but here in the US the move seems to be to limit it to under 24 hours.

In another study, the surprising results were that Function after waking after 8 hours sleep had more degradation for 2 hours than if the person were up for 24 hours. A lot of the work is being done for new rules for Doctors/interns on call and Emergency teams

Sharyn

 

[bishopthomas]

You may not kill someone at the gig with your fader, but how about on the drive home? Or during the bump out...

If your fader pushing has a quality attached to it, then you certainly will not have the same critical listening & hearing qualiity that you would have if you were freshly rested. Your hearing is affected by fatigue as well.
Tonal balance, volume levels, all change as you become more tired.

I already admitted to driving in an unsafe, exhausted state. I realize that it is NOT a good thing to do and I do not condone it or excuse my actions by any subsequent words that I have stated here. But for you to think there should be some kind of blanket rule/law that states that someone cannot work past X hours in their craft is ludicrous. You do not have all of the information and variables, nor will you ever.

Yes, I am quite aware of hearing and vision fatigue over extended periods. I am not going to be subjecting the audience to dangerous SPL's or frequencies just because I've been mixing a band for several hours. The gig I have coming up is a lighting job where the worst that can happen is I don't execute a scene directly on the downbeat. If the client can live with these slight degradations to my performance (and they can, as they will be there for as long as I will) then why does it matter? For you to think there should be some kind of rule/law that tells me I have to leave the console for 10 hours while someone else gets paid to do the job that I am quite capable of is ridiculous.

All I'm saying is don't judge everything as if it's the same. Personal responsibility and liability should come in to play, not a government enacted "nap time." I'm not rigging, I'm not using a table saw, and I'm not performing open heart surgery while tired to the point of physical or mental stress.

Shiben, I agree totally with your last point. Couldn't have said it better myself (and I've been trying).

 

[Pie4Weebl]

I think about this the next time you decide to drive 4 hours after a 20 hour + day:
Carrie Underwood Crew Member Killed in Fatal Truck Accident | Country Music Fever
A truck driver working as part of Carrie Underwood’s crew for her Play On tour was killed this morning in a fatal truck accident on I-95 on the way to her show at the MGM Grand at Foxwoods in Mashantucket, CT‎. The driver was carrying parts of Carrie’s staging when the truck careened off of the highway and plummeted down an embankment before bursting into flames. Reports say that the driver may have fallen asleep at the wheel while driving. The highway was closed off for many hours today as the wreckage was cleaned up. The show will, however, go on as scheduled tonight according to a Foxwoods representative. Thoughts and prayers go out to the family of the truck driver, as well as Carrie and the rest of her crew.

 

[photoatdv]

Wow.... I didn't expect this to become the next hot topic.

No, I will not be the up-rigger for a 30 hour load it. I'll be running a console and mostly dealing with talent... so Shiben kinda nailed that one. It's also not really my bosses fault about it... there's only about 18 hours I HAVE to be there, and my boss will be there and working for those 18 hours too. The reason the other is back to back is that I'm a student, and cannot take off time from class to do that the day before. Not sure my exact schedule for the event yet, but it will be somewhere between 24 and 48 hours total (possibly 2 back to back shows)... if the 48 I'll have a nap between.

I'm thinking I may get some redbull and/or caffeine pills (or whatever else thinkgeek has) to keep handy just in case anything comes up where I really need to be on top of it.

 

[bishopthomas]

I'm thinking I may get some redbull and/or caffeine pills (or whatever else thinkgeek has) to keep handy just in case anything comes up where I really need to be on top of it.

I know I've been the "looooong gig enthusiast" around here but... Don't expect caffeine to do anything for your brain. You may be more awake but it doesn't necessarily mean you'll be thinking more clearly. You probably already know the effects of Redbull on yourself, but for me it does absolutely nothing. Driving across the country several months ago I drank a 5 Hour Energy AND a Monster (worst tasting crap I've ever drank, almost vomited) and was still falling asleep. And yes, I pulled over.

 

[mstaylor]

I think about this the next time you decide to drive 4 hours after a 20 hour + day:
Carrie Underwood Crew Member Killed in Fatal Truck Accident | Country Music Fever
A truck driver working as part of Carrie Underwood’s crew for her Play On tour was killed this morning in a fatal truck accident on I-95 on the way to her show at the MGM Grand at Foxwoods in Mashantucket, CT‎. The driver was carrying parts of Carrie’s staging when the truck careened off of the highway and plummeted down an embankment before bursting into flames. Reports say that the driver may have fallen asleep at the wheel while driving. The highway was closed off for many hours today as the wreckage was cleaned up. The show will, however, go on as scheduled tonight according to a Foxwoods representative. Thoughts and prayers go out to the family of the truck driver, as well as Carrie and the rest of her crew.

I asure you working long hours had nothing to do with this. The truck drivers on this tour and most any tour of this size do nothing drive. That means they have 14 to 18 hrs to sleep. Not to mention this is required for their CDLs to have a certain amount of off time. Now he may have fallen asleep but not because he worked too many hours.

 

[soundman]

A side note about trucking-

Truckers can do about 400-450 miles a night (8 hours) with out hitting an over drive. Anything over 450 miles there is a pay bump. I don't know off hand what the legal maximum a driver can drive with out rest but most truckers I have talked to say that overdrives are where the money is and will gladly drive 12 plus hours a night, legal or not, because the bonus is worth the risk in there eyes. There are also outside factors that eat up their day, if a truck needs to get serviced or can't stay in the docks they will need to be awake to deal with those things.

 

[mstaylor]

Valid points about a trucker or bus driver's day. There are exceptions that interrupt their sleeping time, but the point is they are not in pulling cable and hanging points. Some do sell merch for extra money. Most dump their truck and sleep in their trucks or the runner takes them to the hotel.