Looooong Gig

[Ric]

Hi, regardless of what you feel or think, working excessive hours is dangerous.
After a certain length of time AWAKE, regardless of your work load, your body produces toxins that are similar to the effects of being drunk. This will vary from individual to individual but starts to become noticeable after 12 hours awake (yes as little as that!)

There is no solution, no drug or break will actually reduce the toxins in your body. There is nothing that will fix this apart from real actual sleep!
Sleep deficit is what occurs from doing this for multiple days in a row; effectively your time span before your body becomes 'drunk' reduces the more in sleep debt you become. Each waking period you become affected sooner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_deprivation

"According to a 2000 study published in the British Medical Journal, researchers in Australia and New Zealand reported that sleep deprivation can have some of the same hazardous effects as being drunk.[27] People who drove after being awake for 17–19 hours performed worse than those with a blood alcohol level of .05 percent, which is the legal limit for drunk driving in most western European countries and Australia. Another study suggested that performance begins to degrade after 16 hours awake, and 21 hours awake was equivalent to a blood alcohol content of .08 percent, which is the blood alcohol limit for drunk driving in Canada, the U.S., and the U.K.[28] "



Much like information on rigging on this site, NO-ONE should be recommending ways in which to make extended working hours happen (30 hours straight!? ). This is deadly and I am stunned that it is even being considered.

Shame guys, shame !

Cheers,
Ric

 

[shiben]

you need to take some sort of nap in there. I have done 48 hours awake, doing school, then work, then writing essays, then 12 hours of work. By the end, when we went to get some food after the 2nd work shift, I felt like I had polished off a bottle of wine or something, was being loopy, speaking louder, and failing at simple tasks like buckling my belt and tying my shoes. If I had been trying to do anything that could have been dangerous, it would have been a risk to myself and others. If, during your gig, there is someone giving a speech or some other low-intensity bit, catch some zzs there. I will 2nd meditation, 20 minutes of that can substitute for nearly 2 hours of sleep in my experience, but that has more to do with how good you are at it and how your body will react. The fact remains, however, that by the end you will be effectively intoxicated, and there is no way to get around that.

Wait a second... your a student. Do you sleep ever anyhow?

 

[SHARYNF]

I do think it is somewhat interesting about the comments from the medical community re sleep deprivation, when this sort of situation is exactly what they put interns thru post medical school. Of course "then you are only dealing with folks lives"

Sharyn

 

[bishopthomas]

Ric, I envy your job where you are obviously so well rested and never have to put in the long hours commonly associated with this industry. I wonder what your position is and please tell me how I can attain it.

 

[Ric]

Ric, I envy your job where you are obviously so well rested and never have to put in the long hours commonly associated with this industry. I wonder what your position is and please tell me how I can attain it.

I'll take that tongue in cheek

I am a Tech at a Council owned Theatre. I have had (and still do) my fair share of long days as well, however I am doing my best to ensure the issues of safety are highlighted around dangerous working practices. This is one that isn't easy to change, and will take some time, but to keep people safe MUST change.

In my position I am an OHS rep and am doing my best to make my management aware of long hours and why it is bad practice. Injuries and issues directly relating to working extended hours have been noted and discussed. Fortunately in my State there is a lot of legislation on my side. I've not succeeded in a workplace policy about this in writing ...yet, but my voice is being heard & things are changing here.

Once you start talking safety & injury management associated with long working hours, slowly but surely the message gets through.

I hate that there are still lots & lots of people that work these hours in our industry, often. It's criminal that *we* feel we have no option but to say yes to things like this.

Long working hours are no less dangerous than working at heights unprotected, or driving drunk. It's irresponsible of anyone to offer ways to ensure you do it, and my point was comparing it to the policy of this Forum of not discussing ways to rig; we should not encourage unsafe work practices at all. I'm not sorry if you take exception to my point of view, I respect yours and your right to speak it, and I welcome healthy discussion always.

Cheers,
Ric

 

[SHARYNF]

Here is a paper from Harvard on effective ways to stay awake

New study: Small, frequent doses of caffeine best strategy for staying awake

Sharyn

 

[shiben]

I hate that there are still lots & lots of people that work these hours in our industry, often. It's criminal that *we* feel we have no option but to say yes to things like this.

Sometimes we have little choice. If there are 2 different shows back to back, there is no real way to avoid working long hours. The formats that theaters and events get into is just plain labor intensive sometimes. Im not real sure what we can even do about that.

 

[gafftaper]

The simple answer is you need to rest. If there is no time for you to get rest then your employer has a staffing problem that your employer needs to solve. This means hiring more qualified staff for the event. That's not your problem. Stand up for yourself. Draw the line and say I won't work more than 16 hours. If the event can't be done that's not your problem. Tell whomever is demanding this event happen that you will only do it if they are standing right next to you the entire 30 hours. Or will they be home snug in their bed? If they aren't willing to work with you the whole time they can cough up a few bucks and hire additional staff. How do you pull it off? You work shifts with your ATD. Hire two extra people You get one your ATD gets one. Two teams working 12 on 12 off Problem solved.

This reminds me so much of the dangerous ladder discussion from a while back. We work endless hours without sleep because "the show must go on". That idea is stupid and will get you killed eventually. The show doesn't have to go on at the expense of your safety. If the show has to go on around the clock then the boss needs to hire additional staff or scale back the demands on tech. The "big boys" don't work like this. We have this image working in educational and community theater that "the pros" (whomever they are) are 10x tougher than us and can work 6 days without a break. Well they don't. Yes once in a while we all get in a pinch but in general they hire extra people and the job gets done before breakfast. Even the most demanding tour is going to provide a few hours of rack time backstage during the event.

A friend was telling me about working in his large arena. A couple years ago they had a motor cross preliminary event Thursday followed by a Concert Friday, and then the motor cross finals on Saturday. Thousands of pounds of dirt hauled into the arena, then removed and replaced with chairs and a stage, then bring the dirt back in. It's insane. How do you do it? You hire another 50 guys, they work in shifts, and everyone goes home on time with all their fingers. THAT is how the pros do it.

Like you I've worked my share of 12-16 hour days... but somewhere along the way I say that's it we are going to sleep and I don't care what the show looks like. If the director isn't happy the director can come work another 16 hours. I need to sleep. Oh and if you are still in high school I better not catch you doing even those kind of hours (yes I am a grumpy old teacher). It's great that you are dedicated to the drama program, but you are a student first. Get your homework done, get to class on time and awake. You have plenty of years ahead of you to work long hours. You need to keep your head on straight and learn now so you are ready for your big break some day. During my first year teaching one of my students spent so much time in the theater she almost didn't graduate. Since then I've kept an eye on student time. I like your help but I want you to graduate first. The show IS NOT that important.

 

[bishopthomas]

I'll take that tongue in cheek

I am a Tech at a Council owned Theatre. I have had (and still do) my fair share of long days as well, however I am doing my best to ensure the issues of safety are highlighted around dangerous working practices. This is one that isn't easy to change, and will take some time, but to keep people safe MUST change.

In my position I am an OHS rep and am doing my best to make my management aware of long hours and why it is bad practice. Injuries and issues directly relating to working extended hours have been noted and discussed. Fortunately in my State there is a lot of legislation on my side. I've not succeeded in a workplace policy about this in writing ...yet, but my voice is being heard & things are changing here.

Once you start talking safety & injury management associated with long working hours, slowly but surely the message gets through.

I hate that there are still lots & lots of people that work these hours in our industry, often. It's criminal that *we* feel we have no option but to say yes to things like this.

Long working hours are no less dangerous than working at heights unprotected, or driving drunk. It's irresponsible of anyone to offer ways to ensure you do it, and my point was comparing it to the policy of this Forum of not discussing ways to rig; we should not encourage unsafe work practices at all. I'm not sorry if you take exception to my point of view, I respect yours and your right to speak it, and I welcome healthy discussion always.

Cheers,
Ric

It was half tongue in cheek, half exposing a hypocrite. You are so adamantly against it but freely admit to working "long hours" yourself. Tell me that you turn down jobs with long hours or go home after an 8-10 hour work day and I will hold your words with merit. If you feel so strongly about not working when you're tired then don't do it. See how far that gets you in this industry...

 

[bishopthomas]

The simple answer is you need to rest. If there is no time for you to get rest then your employer has a staffing problem that your employer needs to solve.

We aren't all so lucky to work as a staff member of one location. Today I may be hired by a group to bring in a light rig, the next as a monitor engineer with a local sound company, all after getting home from a long tour (I have literally gone from the airport to a gig at least twice). This is all part of the business, staying diverse, feast or famine... I could have a month (or two) off afterward so for me to turn down a gig because I didn't get 8 hours of sleep the previous night would be ridiculous.

The "big boys" don't work like this. We have this image working in educational and community theater that "the pros" (whomever they are) are 10x tougher than us and can work 6 days without a break. Well they don't. Yes once in a while we all get in a pinch but in general they hire extra people and the job gets done before breakfast. Even the most demanding tour is going to provide a few hours of rack time backstage during the event.

You honestly think the guys at Clair, Showco, Bandit, 8th Day, etc. don't work extremely long hours, sometimes (often maybe) not going to sleep at night? I dare you to call them with your ideas of this 9-5 work day you think should be the norm.

Please don't think I'm advocating working in high steel or with power tools after days of being awake. That's not what I'm saying. But if I need to operate a console for 36 hours (and get paid to do it) then I really don't see how that's any of your concern.

 

[Ric]

It was half tongue in cheek, half exposing a hypocrite. You are so adamantly against it but freely admit to working "long hours" yourself. Tell me that you turn down jobs with long hours or go home after an 8-10 hour work day and I will hold your words with merit. If you feel so strongly about not working when you're tired then don't do it. See how far that gets you in this industry...

OK, I hear you. To sum up there were 2 points I was trying to make.
1/ Is that long working hours are bad & potentially dangerous, I hope there's no disagreement there.
2/ That this forum should promote good & safe working practices, and that to encourage bad ones is irresponsible.

Yes, I am fortunate to currently work for a single employer, in a steady role, in the same venue. I understand that others have widely varying working roles & conditions, and that mine is comparatively a breeze.
What I am hoping to do is discourage the industry prevalent attitude that long hours are *right*. I understand the necessities at times to work long hours, however with forethought, staffing & planning, for a lot of jobs & places it IS possible to not have those long hours. For those who freelance then yes it sucks, but you can put strategies in place to reduce your hours, if your health & safety is important enough to you.

I have been in the industry a long time, I worked long hours for many years, and as I grew older my values changed; family became more important than my job. My strategy was to find a job, like I have done, that took me out of the dangerous working practices of the casually employed, and value my health, my life, & the lives of people around me over the big buck.

I encounter tremendous resistance when I discuss this, mostly I believe because people are reluctant to stand up, for fear of losing their income. That's a very valid thing! I am fortunate to be employed such that I can advocate for changes in my workplace, and hopefully those changes will help the industry along the way.

I am occasionally still faced with 14 hour days for my crew and I (is that all I hear some of you say?); when they are presented to me, I bring out my discussions on health & safety for long working hours and try to offer options to reduce the hours for all the staff involved. Often this involves extra staff, or breaking the work day into 2 days. Other times the time constraints are imposed from external organisations, and I suggest imposing financial penalties (increased overtime rates for example). Sometimes the message gets through, othertimes not. It's not a quick solution, but an attitude, that I am trying to change. Slowly but surely people will begin to see that it was never smart to work that way.

Cheers,
Ric

 

[shiben]

We aren't all so lucky to work as a staff member of one location. Today I may be hired by a group to bring in a light rig, the next as a monitor engineer with a local sound company, all after getting home from a long tour (I have literally gone from the airport to a gig at least twice). This is all part of the business, staying diverse, feast or famine... I could have a month (or two) off afterward so for me to turn down a gig because I didn't get 8 hours of sleep the previous night would be ridiculous.



You honestly think the guys at Clair, Showco, Bandit, 8th Day, etc. don't work extremely long hours, sometimes (often maybe) not going to sleep at night? I dare you to call them with your ideas of this 9-5 work day you think should be the norm.

Please don't think I'm advocating working in high steel or with power tools after days of being awake. That's not what I'm saying. But if I need to operate a console for 36 hours (and get paid to do it) then I really don't see how that's any of your concern.

Actually, if I understand our local's rules right (im not IA yet, I lack a car to get to gigs), there is a huge overtime cost penalty for not giving at least 8 hours for rest in between work periods, or not giving 8 hours of rest per 24 hours. I figure that there is a reason that when large arena tours come in, they dont arrive the night before and work until its set up, but rather hire dozens of local hands to help with the work and start in the morning.

To the OP, another thing to think about is the potential penalty of working for 30 hours on your body. I can pull 48 hours for school and whatnot, but I will be asleep for a good 12-14 for the next few nights. Remember that you can pull an all day-all night-all morning shift, and you might even be able to stay awake for it. However, school on monday is going to suck, especially if your not a theatre major and can get away with skipping your 8Am because the prof saw the show and liked it...

 

[bishopthomas]

I have been in the industry a long time, I worked long hours for many years, and as I grew older my values changed; family became more important than my job. My strategy was to find a job, like I have done, that took me out of the dangerous working practices of the casually employed, and value my health, my life, & the lives of people around me over the big buck.

I have realized over the past couple of years that I cannot keep up this lifestyle forever. Please give me a heads up on any available 8 hour tech jobs that you may know of... I would love to get out of the freelance world, stop touring, sell my lighting rig and box truck, stop paying self employment taxes, etc.

 

[bishopthomas]

Actually, if I understand our local's rules right (im not IA yet, I lack a car to get to gigs), there is a huge overtime cost penalty for not giving at least 8 hours for rest in between work periods, or not giving 8 hours of rest per 24 hours.

In a world where everything operates like IATSE then we'd all make decent livings, have excellent working conditions, and be bright eyed and bushy tailed in the morning. But for now some of us are going to have to do the work of two while being paid for one. Hopefully very soon I will be so lucky as to have forgotten what it's like to work for days straight. Then I will come on a forum and tell people that they should be getting off work at 6:00 and in bed by 10.

 

[SHARYNF]

Sometimes I think the entertainment business and emergency response are one in the same ;-) Learning to be able to work round the clock to make a deadline is pretty typical. We all learn our own little tricks to our own bodies to keep us going. I'm with Bishopthomas.... off by 6 bed by 8 as they say in NY "FUR GEDDA BOUT IT"

Shayrn

 

[bishopthomas]

Sometimes I think the entertainment business and emergency response are one in the same ;-) Learning to be able to work round the clock to make a deadline is pretty typical. We all learn our own little tricks to our own bodies to keep us going. I'm with Bishopthomas.... off by 6 bed by 8 as they say in NY "FUR GEDDA BOUT IT"

You know, now that you bring it up... What about surgeons who work for 12 hours on a patient? I think that's WAY more dangerous than me pushing up faders for 24 hours.

Thanks for the support, Sharyn. Not to be condescending, but I think some people do not realize just how great they have it. I can speak from experience. I used to be a technical director in a church, worked my 9-5 hours plus Sundays. But even then I would freelance on the side. Get back from a gig on Saturday night/Sunday morning, take a shower, and go straight to the church. If I can go back to that lifestyle I most certainly will (although probably not in a church) with a new appreciation of what it means to really work, and have to say yes to every gig because you don't know when the next one will be.

 

[shiben]

In a world where everything operates like IATSE then we'd all make decent livings, have excellent working conditions, and be bright eyed and bushy tailed in the morning. But for now some of us are going to have to do the work of two while being paid for one. Hopefully very soon I will be so lucky as to have forgotten what it's like to work for days straight. Then I will come on a forum and tell people that they should be getting off work at 6:00 and in bed by 10.

Oh I understand that. I was just saying that the industry as a whole is not totally set on everyone working long hours and days at a time. Its more of a situation specific decision, I know of IA gigs where they worked for 24 hours straight, and made bank for it. I have no problem working long hours, I just take it into account and plan my work accordingly/bring more coke and order pizza more often. However, I really dont think you CAN be wholy alert and be able to respond to an emergency/show disaster after 24 hours... Now, if all the OP needs to do is run lights or something, they might get better after 20 or so hours... Best light show I ever ran was 30 hours into a 40 hour weekend (slept in the booth for 2 hours over that time)

 

[SteveB]

with a new appreciation of what it means to really work, and have to say yes to every gig because you don't know when the next one will be.

I am finding your attitude offensive and condescending and as a result, entirely not helpful on this forum.

If you don't like the type of work you're doing, go do something else, but stop bloody whining about it. Many of us have worked the freelance gig and then moved on, either by being lucky enough to get a regular gig, or by deliberately understanding that the certain freelance working conditions were not self sustaining in the long run and thus worked hard to find regular gigs. Many others work freelance but have learned pacing and how to better schedule themselves so that the type of work can be managed. You perhaps have yet to find that balance.

To imply that those of us who do work regular gigs don't work as hard as a freelancer is absurd. Remember that we don't get months off after. I've been working a road house for 28 years. I am NOT ALLOWED to work the absurd hours on a regular basis as the management mostly understands the danger, especially if they want consistency from me as well as wanting to retain a good employee for a long time.

So lay off on Ric, as you are shooting the messenger. Better to thank him for understanding the dangers of extreme work hours and taking a proactive stance to get the conditions changed and the message out there.

Rant over.

 

[bishopthomas]

Steve, you have done a great job in misrepresenting my quote. Maybe you should be in journalism. I was referring to myself in my previous job of technical director in a corporate environment. I am admitting that I had it easier than I knew and that now I can appreciate it. Never did I have to work very long hours, stack speakers, fly line arrays, tip consoles, etc. I am not complaining about having to do it now, only stating that I had a very cush job that I am sure is very similar to the ones of those lobbying for these more "normal" work days.

Sorry if you feel I have offended you, but I take offense when people think their situation should be enforced upon everyone. There will always be long work days in this industry. Personal and family life will suffer. We are not paid as much as we think we should be. But it's the career and lifestyle we chose, it's the way it is, so get over it.

Knowing your personal limitations is being safe, whether it's from lack of sleep or lack of education. YOU are responsible for making that decision, not your employer. And if your employer forces you into ANY situation you're not comfortable in (not limited to working hours) you have every right to refuse and face the consequences. However, there will always be someone who can and will do what you refuse so you must be prepared for that.

I don't look down on anyone for having a nice job where they get to walk in, work for a few hours, then go home to dinner with their family, whether it's someone in production or a dentist or electrician or whatever. But it's too easy for someone in this position to think that they need to "change the rules" so that everyone has the same situation. That's what I have a problem with.

 

[SHARYNF]

I think the point that some of us were taking issue with was the equating of working long hours to working drunk and that it was totally irresponsible.

While none of us LIKE to work insane hours, the situation is that on occasion it is necessary and we all learn our limits and how we deal with it

For instance it is part of the training program with doctors to force them to work these insane hours, and they are performing life threatening activities

It is very typical in an emergency to have fire or ems work extremely long hours

Most of us have been in a situation where for a variety of reasons to make the show happen we have had to put in long long hours.

If you look at the Silicon valley culture, having developers work 100 plus hours per week is not that unusual.

So I agree typically entertainment industry work entails crazy hours dealing with all sorts of people. So have I worked 30+ hours straight? you bet do I like it NO but when the production all comes together and meets the opening night curtain up time and everything works, I guess for some of us it has been "worth it"

Sharyn