Making Dream Jobs Come True (TL;DR in OP)

[gafftaper]

I can see where a degree matters on the higher-end of things. Right now, RTECS is definitely trying to serve the freelance and lower-end hourly markets.

I'm a little confused about who your target client market is. If I'm trying to get work as an hourly tech, I'm going to ask around to my friends, ask friends to submit my resume at venues they work at, go to my local Union and ask for work, apply at Rhino or LiveNation, etc... There are many easy routes to finding hourly work that cover me for the vast majority of hourly work in the area. Why do I need you? On the flip side, I manage a High School Performing Arts Center. I have 11 hourly people on my crew. All of them have multiple other gigs they work. If I need to hire someone else I ask one of them who they know that I should add to the list or I call a few old friends. Everyone I've ever hired has come with solid references from people I know. No need for a service to help me with that, it's already quite easy finding good people.

It seems to me your market is the higher end jobs. If I'm running a large road house theater and I want to hire the best LD in the country willing to move to my region, it would be useful to have a service help me find a great one.

 

[NateJanota]

Hey @gafftaper, here's some answers to your feedback! I appreciate you taking the time to write, by the way.

There are many easy routes to finding hourly work that cover me for the vast majority of hourly work in the area. Why do I need you?

Let me ask a simple question: if you could find a passionate individual who not only met your requirements, but exceeded your expectations in a multitude of ways, met your budget cap, did great work, and at the end of the day walked away with a high level of work satisfaction, would you hire that person? I see no reason you wouldn't; in fact, common sense says it would be foolish not to, it's basically gold on a silver platter. Here's the issue: at the end of the day, all recommendations (good or bad) about who you should hire 1) are prone to bias and 2) don't always aptly describe techs trying to make their break into the industry.

Say Jo Shmo is starting out as a Lighting Technician. He lives in a small town with 16,000 people. His local theater is not hiring and he can't afford to donate hours to his community theater since has to eat and pay the rent. He needs quality work. He hears that a theater run by gafftaper (<insert your name here>) in Seattle is hiring. He looks up a profile for this particular client and realizes it's everything he could possibly hope for in starting off as a Technician. Let's say that you glance over his profile and notice that he runs a positive track record of motivation, willingness to learn and adapt, and a level of knowledge that he has gained through study on his own personal time. He has neither professional degree, work experience, nor qualifications, but he is a worthwhile investment because he is inexpensive to hire, is willing to move and work, and is a low risk hire. What are the chances your friends know Jo Shmo? He's from a small town of 16,000 somewhere in Arizona. His passion is to become an LD. He has no opportunities to advance. But your theatre is hiring.

What do you do? Your recommendations, an application, and a resume aren't going to solve this situation. And before anyone says that "this doesn't happen," I advise caution. Research indicates almost 30% of starting techs didn't have connections, a degree, or previous experience to start with. And if that research isn't good enough, I myself am an example.

If you have the time and willingness to read one more scenario, please consider the following:
Let's say you are the lead singer of ABC Rock Band. You're from a decently artsy town (say, Miami or LA) and you've been gigging for a while. You've got some cash, some good tunes, and a few venues. However, you know no professional Entertainment Technicians, your budget is limited, but your imagination is not. Who do you aim to hire? You could scour some Classified Ads (risky), perhaps ask the Union (there's always strings attached), ask some friends (but if you're just starting off your odds are still slim), place a hiring ad on a website somewhere (also risky), or use this thing called RTECS. You don't know the difference between a Lighting Programmer and a Designer, and you don't know why the acoustics of a room matters to your Audio Technician. You just know you need people.

What do you do? RTECS could recommend someone to you who, while they might not have 20 years of experience, is willing to tolerate and work around your lack of knowledge of the industry... someone who is willing to carry your passion into their technical work and give you a great result, all for a great price. Best of all, these techs you're shopping for just happen to dream of tech'ing it with a rock band. What an awesome coincidence!

Again, before anyone says "this doesn't happen," yes it does. All the time. Too frequently. Believe me, without money, technical expertise, or an amazing business pitch, many talented band gigs, corporate events, and small clubs and bars end up getting staffing that is sub-par, and hurts their bottom line. Worst of all, the cycle of poor budget = poor tech = poor result = poor budget etc, etc, continues ad nauseum.

I aim to fix that.

 

[What Rigger?]

I can see where a degree matters on the higher-end of things. Right now, RTECS is definitely trying to serve the freelance and lower-end hourly markets. The salaried and corporate tiers are definitely on our radar, but I'm trying to think of a way to compromise between the two. I've met a fair share of HR departments who don't know the difference between a Lighting Designer and a Lighting Programmer- and that's an HR department for one of the world's leading Entertainment brands. That kind of misunderstanding should somehow be clarified, and the problem nullified.

How would you bridge the gap, since you brought up such a good point (if you don't mind saying so, that is)? How would you propose handling HR departments who hire for technical jobs without knowing the in-depth technical criteria? Their misunderstanding leads to poor hiring choices, thousands wasted, and hours burned. I am a first-hand witness to such incidents. Do you think a hiring standard for techs at that salary level would suffice? Maybe testing? A different interview process? Or something maybe I'm missing?

Careful now, ruinexplorer, to my eye this comes across as asking for (free) help in developing RTECS product. I'd seek compensation before contributing to this venture. Are we not all paid professionals with experience dating back to freshman year of high school?

Let's say you are the lead singer of ABC Rock Band. You're from a decently artsy town (say, Miami or LA) and you've been gigging for a while. You've got some cash, some good tunes, and a few venues. However, you know no professional Entertainment Technicians, your budget is limited, but your imagination is not. Who do you aim to hire? You could scour some Classified Ads (risky), perhaps ask the Union (there's always strings attached), ask some friends (but if you're just starting off your odds are still slim), place a hiring ad on a website somewhere (also risky), or use this thing called RTECS. You don't know the difference between a Lighting Programmer and a Designer, and you don't know why the acoustics of a room matters to your Audio Technician. You just know you need people.
The "strings attached" you refer to when using Union labor is called "fair labor practices". It allows for wages that a person can live off of and avoids abusive practices of workers. You like two days off a week? You like overtime pay? You like holidays off? You like things like insurance/medical benefits? Your friends outside the industry like a 5 day work week? An 8 hour work day? Thank a Union member. Dismissive terms such as "strings attached" display a less than full understanding of the big picture. I'm not saying that's how you think, but that's how it comes across. Again, a turn off to this service you're offering.

Now, if you're a band "just starting off", 99 out of 100 times you don't have the money for hiring road crew. You deal with the house crew at the venues you get into, and if the band isn't humping their own gear and sharing the driving of the clapped out van, there might be one extra person as a Tour/road manager & FOH person. In the several 1200 seat or so venues I've worked, one or mayyyybe two people are touring with legacy acts and up and coming bands simply don't hire outside of their friends/relatives. Your brother will drive the van for beer. Someone looking for a real job probably won't.

Have a day!

 

[NateJanota]

Careful now, ruinexplorer, to my eye this comes across as asking for (free) help in developing RTECS product. I'd seek compensation before contributing to this venture. Are we not all paid professionals with experience dating back to freshman year of high school?

Your statement, while reasonably cautious, is marginally pointed. But sidestepping your subtle hostility, I will state that I didn't come to the CB community to sell the product. I came to the CB community to gain advice, feedback, learn from my elders and superiors. I could have paid professional researchers another several tens of thousands for research that you would all then spend hours on CB taking apart with criticisms. But instead I came to the source to see what I could learn. At the end of the day, RTECS' only end goal is to make a positive change for the better within Entertainment. The only purpose of income is to pay the expenses that come from operating that I myself can barely already afford to pay. Please keep that respectfully in mind; I didn't have your opportunities in high school.

Dismissive terms such as "strings attached" display a less than full understanding of the big picture. I'm not saying that's how you think, but that's how it comes across. Again, a turn off to this service you're offering.

Why make something of nothing by assuming (we all know what happens when assumptions get made) that "strings attached" is completely negative? It's both positive and negative. It results in better conditions for workers but also results in difficulties for smaller gigs unable to meet the stringent legal requirements. Unions are always a two-way street; that's why both union and non-union Technicians exist... because the Union is not the end-all, be-all, positive OR negative. It is a neutral entity with contractual obligations. The service I'm offering has nothing to do with, is not endorsed by, and does not endorse Union membership, and neither does it discourage it.

Someone looking for a real job probably won't.

This is an ambitiously bold assumption to make. Interestingly, I would give up several dollars of my pay, a marginal amount of job security, and a little extra of my time to find a gig I really enjoy. Compromises can be made where passions and productivity meet. Don't assume that your expectations and the anticipations of the Technician always have to be in direct conflict.

RTECS has one purpose, and that is to connect ALL technicians with work. Technicians come in too many personality types, experience levels, educational levels, motivations, passions, and drives to possibly state that one person's hiring methods will always work for someone else. That's why the "system" is already flawed. And there is no argument anyone can present to me (yet) that can negate the fact that the hiring system for Technicians is for the most part hit-and-miss/guess-and-check. For every success you can prove I can prove a failure where the same methods were used. But if we could somehow quantify more data points, we have an increased chance that both the Technician and the Client will be satisfied. There is no humanly possible way for an application, resume, interview, recommendation letter, or Facebook page to quantify that data. There's deeper levels than just those things.

 

[gafftaper]

Hey @gafftaper Here's the issue: at the end of the day, all recommendations (good or bad) about who you should hire 1) are prone to bias and 2) don't always aptly describe techs trying to make their break into the industry.

Not sure that I completely buy those points. First after decades in this industry I have a great group of friends around the area. Who I know the work of and trust the judgement of. When my buddy Dave tells me a person should be hired, there's a great deal of meaning behind it. I know Dave well. I know what he expects of his crew. Yeah that opinion is biased, but I know exactly how it is biased towards good hard working people. There are people who I would take the word of without and hire without even looking at a resume. There are others I would move a little slower on. It all depends on how well I know that reference. As for being biased against techs trying to make their break, yeah it is. And that's the way this industry is. To most of us, years of experience has high value. The reason is when things go wrong, I would much rather have someone who has spent the last 20, 30, or 40 years working in theater and has been through it all before to keep the show running. Someone half his age who thinks he knows it all, but only has a couple years of post educational theater real world work is simply not as qualified.

Not that I would never hire a young tech. I have several on my team, most of them are great. But I always schedule at least one of the older guys to lead the team for when things go wrong.

Hey @gafftaperSay Jo Shmo is starting out as a Lighting Technician. He lives in a small town with 16,000 people. His local theater is not hiring and he can't afford to donate hours to his community theater since has to eat and pay the rent. He needs quality work. He hears that a theater run by gafftaper (<insert your name here>) in Seattle is hiring. He looks up a profile for this particular client and realizes it's everything he could possibly hope for in starting off as a Technician. Let's say that you glance over his profile and notice that he runs a positive track record of motivation, willingness to learn and adapt, and a level of knowledge that he has gained through study on his own personal time. He has neither professional degree, work experience, nor qualifications, but he is a worthwhile investment because he is inexpensive to hire, is willing to move and work, and is a low risk hire. What are the chances your friends know Jo Shmo? He's from a small town of 16,000 somewhere in Arizona. His passion is to become an LD. He has no opportunities to advance. But your theatre is hiring.

So we are again back to what I said about how I'm confused by your target audience. No one in their right mind should ever move to another city for a lower end hourly tech job. Move for a job as LD at a big Regional LORT theater sure! But not to be hourly crew at Gaff's Theater. The guys on my staff average around 15 hours a month in my space and either have a day job not in theater or they work for at least 5 (if not closer to 10) other theaters where they scrape together enough hours to survive through a combination of gigs.

 

[NateJanota]

As for being biased against techs trying to make their break, yeah it is. And that's the way this industry is

This needs to change. While you may have had opportunities that newer techs do not have, it's not fair to assume that they'll get it somewhere else. Why not reach down and help? Because you can't reasonably be expected to help every single tech looking to find work. THERE'S just one potential market for what I'm doing.

The reason is when things go wrong, I would much rather have someone who has spent the last 20, 30, or 40 years working in theater and has been through it all before to keep the show running

This is the argument "you need experience to get a job to get experience." Where does that infinite cycle begin? With a break. Certain people (namely, gigs who can't afford better or are not quite ready for the jump to 20-year vet) will pay for a tech with less experience. It may surprise you, but there is a demand for it. There's so much more about RTECS that I just can't put into words without an entire book. RTECS has a vision as large as it is simple. There are too many exceptions to the rule. I want to start by filling those gaps. Interestingly, problems such as "Lighting Programmer with no design abilities" doing a Lighting Designer's job is also a common theme that relates back to where that particular tech started their career! The right job leads to the right opportunities, you understand that!

So we are again back to what I said about how I'm confused by your target audience. No one in their right mind should ever move to another city for a lower end hourly tech job.

Let me tell you a short story. 18 something student from poor family gets a scholarship to college. College cuts budgets, drops student on skull. Student in desire to finish education takes on loans he can never afford to repay. Financial aid gets denied prior to senior year. Student forced to enter workplace with a few odd jobs and only some odds-and-ends skills within the Technical Theatre work that he did throughout high school at various freelance events. His career only accepts degree holders, so he switches hobby into his career and his old career becomes a hobby. He's starving and evicted from his home because he can't hold enough hours at his local theatre. After putting 134 applications in for minimum wage jobs, he's desperate to find work. He's got an empty credit card, so he rips up stakes, moves across country to a job who promised him a great salary doing great Theatre work for a great company. They lay him off after 5 months due to budget cuts, leaving him with the debts from moving and not enough experience to sell to anyone else.

That's me. I wasn't in my right mind? Welcome to my life, I dare you to critique it. Please, tell me how I made the wrong decision to break out of my misery and attempt to make something of myself. Please, do make an attempt to evaluate my life decisions and tell me where it all went wrong.

For some Technicians... lots of them... they don't have the educational, career, financial, or experience opportunities everyone else might have had. Let's give them a chance. Don't ever dare to look at those trying to reach your lofty perch and lecture them on what they're doing wrong. I will never look at those who attempt to learn from me with even my low-level experience and tell them to rough it and just "that's how the industry is."

Forgive my passion; I mean no offense nor harm. I didn't start RTECS to make it rich. I didn't join Technical Theatre to get rich. I didn't do it for any reason but passionate drive and motivation. I just want to help the struggling, and if that bothers other people, I don't apologize. RTECS isn't for the tech who's got it made in the shade with a life he's content with. It's for the Techs and Clients who just can't seem to nail it down. Please understand that much.

EMPHASIS: Text forums never quite get tone or attitude right; please don't take what I say as hostility- it is only impassioned creativity at work. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[josh88]

/Wall of text

I'll go check out the survey's in a minute, its been a long week of shows and moving, but here's my unsolicited 2 cents from what I've read so far.

Maybe its the area I'm in, maybe its that I'm really good. But I took a job teaching 5 years ago and I'm in the process of moving on from that, but in that time I've worked as many side gigs as I have time for. I've never applied or looked for work. I've never needed someone to help. I never "broke in" it just happened. I dealt with rental groups, they liked me, word spread. I mean some seriously large stuff, gigs I probably WAS qualified for, but couldn't do as a full time teacher. It wasn't too long before I started living Gafftaper's signature. I have a feeling it'll be years before I have a situation larger that a few I screwed up in this period.

Long story short. I'm not sure I'm buying in either. Passion is great but passion and skill get you the work. The more shitty, low pay jobs you do and shine at, the more people ask you for more. Be good, work hard and your reputation does wonders. I guess for me this goes back to the age old advice around here of do whatever you need to do and do it well. Work at starbucks or wherever to pay the bills and start pushing boxes somewhere. If you aren't an ass, the phone will keep ringing. I've found this true in a major city and especially true in the middle of nowhere. When there's 5 guys that do a job and 3 of them are cocky assholes, you can pretty quickly have the market in your hand... you just might be getting paid in corn. Moving while broke and in debt never makes sense. There's a reason I tell my students in tech, if you can do anything else and be happy, do it. Theatre can always be a hobby and if you enjoy something else, make bank for awhile and if you decide to go for it full time, you've got the resources. If you won't be happy doing anything else, then dive in head first but be willing to work your ass off, take every gig, work doing anything you can on the side, play everything smart and learn to live frugal.

I'd never pay more for someone with less experience. I'd pay less for someone with less, but I'd give the other person a chance to do something they can't screw up and move up in the world. I had a rental through this weekend. I had another show and couldn't work it. I could have recommended the usual guy but he's expensive as hell and this rental needed someone cheaper so I recommended a former student. Because he knew the space, he's capable (and has shown me over 4 years of working his way up through shows for me) and could do what the rental needed for less cost to them. Our world, more than anything really, truly comes down to who you know more than anything else.

Probably not helpful, I'm just not sure I get the end game or the statistics since they don't match up with my experiences in life.

 

[GreyWyvern]

This needs to change. While you may have had opportunities that newer techs do not have, it's not fair to assume that they'll get it somewhere else. Why not reach down and help? Because you can't reasonably be expected to help every single tech looking to find work. THERE'S just one potential market for what I'm doing.

Good luck with that! Sorry to be blunt, but I just don't think that an old, tight-knit community industry like this is going to change the way it operates just because some kid doesn't like it.

Let me tell you a short story. 18 something student from poor family gets a scholarship to college. College cuts budgets, drops student on skull. Student in desire to finish education takes on loans he can never afford to repay. Financial aid gets denied prior to senior year. Student forced to enter workplace with a few odd jobs and only some odds-and-ends skills within the Technical Theatre work that he did throughout high school at various freelance events. His career only accepts degree holders, so he switches hobby into his career and his old career becomes a hobby. He's starving and evicted from his home because he can't hold enough hours at his local theatre. After putting 134 applications in for minimum wage jobs, he's desperate to find work. He's got an empty credit card, so he rips up stakes, moves across country to a job who promised him a great salary doing great Theatre work for a great company. They lay him off after 5 months due to budget cuts, leaving him with the debts from moving and not enough experience to sell to anyone else.

I missed the part where he got his IATSE card and started working gigs, getting to know people and networking, and putting in the hard work to prove himself and work his way up in the industry.

That's me. I wasn't in my right mind? Welcome to my life, I dare you to critique it. Please, tell me how I made the wrong decision to break out of my misery and attempt to make something of myself. Please, do make an attempt to evaluate my life decisions and tell me where it all went wrong.

One wrong decision was taking on debt to try to get a job that won't pay you enough to repay the debt. The are several threads on CB discussing just that. Another one is arguing with people that are trying to help you out. You are getting lots of great feedback and advice that you are just pushing back. That is a good way to get a bad name for yourself. This industry is a tight-knit community. Everyone knows everyone else. Word spreads like wildfire. Not only do you have to be careful about what you do, but what you say as well.

What are you really trying to get out of RTECS? A job for yourself? That's how it is beginning to look.

 

[RonHebbard]

Good luck with that! Sorry to be blunt, but I just don't think that an old, tight-knit community industry like this is going to change the way it operates just because some kid doesn't like it.


I missed the part where he got his IATSE card and started working gigs, getting to know people and networking, and putting in the hard work to prove himself and work his way up in the industry.


One wrong decision was taking on debt to try to get a job that won't pay you enough to repay the debt. The are several threads on CB discussing just that. Another one is arguing with people that are trying to help you out. You are getting lots of great feedback and advice that you are just pushing back. That is a good way to get a bad name for yourself. This industry is a tight-knit community. Everyone knows everyone else. Word spreads like wildfire. Not only do you have to be careful about what you do, but what you say as well.

What are you really trying to get out of RTECS? A job for yourself? That's how it's beginning to look.

If you do something absolutely stellar, it spreads pretty quick. If you screw up REALLY badly, you won't believe how fast it spreads.
Toodleoo!
Ron

 

[NateJanota]

Good luck with that! Sorry to be blunt, but I just don't think that an old, tight-knit community industry like this is going to change the way it operates just because some kid doesn't like it.


I missed the part where he got his IATSE card and started working gigs, getting to know people and networking, and putting in the hard work to prove himself and work his way up in the industry.


One wrong decision was taking on debt to try to get a job that won't pay you enough to repay the debt. The are several threads on CB discussing just that. Another one is arguing with people that are trying to help you out. You are getting lots of great feedback and advice that you are just pushing back. That is a good way to get a bad name for yourself. This industry is a tight-knit community. Everyone knows everyone else. Word spreads like wildfire. Not only do you have to be careful about what you do, but what you say as well.

What are you really trying to get out of RTECS? A job for yourself? That's how it is beginning to look.

No, actually it might surprise you how much of the feedback is getting noted. I'm studying and paying attention, and learning from everyone's advice. I already have a job, and am content with it to be perfectly honest. I just have bigger dreams and ambitions than many other people I know, and I also have a passion for other people succeeding. Don't worry! Every thing that is said here is noted, analyzed, and thought about. You are all helping me most by providing your feedback and criticisms. A lot of it makes for productive research. Some of it confirms things I've already learned, some of it teaches me something new, some surprises, some doesn't.

As for my debt decision, you need to be more empathetic. Put yourself in a college student's shoes. The government denied your financial aid. Family can't afford to help you. Your local town is so small that no job can afford to pay you a livable wage (and I'm not talking $15/hr, I'm talking $8/hr) AND give you hours. Then you get this job offer through a "friend": a full-time, salaried gig across country with great benefits, plenty of work, in a booming industry. Come on, move on down, try it! Wouldn't you give that even a portion of thought? And to be fair, I didn't have any mentors or guidance when I was living in Arizona struggling to buy ramen to eat... I had to learn the hard way. That's why I borrowed enough books on lighting to teach myself what I know now. Every screw up I've ever made has been a learning experience.

As for the IATSE card, prepare yourself for a shock: no one ever told me about that. *gasp* You don't have to believe it, but it's true. So here's your opportunity to educate me in a polite, mentor-like manner. I'm listening. As for getting to know people, who do you get to know in a town of 16,000 with a non-union public theare, church-run community theatre, and an engineering school with a focus in aviation?? Believe me, I tried! Once I moved here to FL I started putting out feelers immediately!

I have to keep mentioning that text-based forums never allow for adequate breathing room with tone and attitude. Everyone reads what they want to hear; people looking for an argument read things in an argumentative manner. If I come across that way, I'm not stupid enough to arrogantly say "that's your problem." Instead, I'll own up to it and say "I apologize for my attitude!" Please just understand that nothing I'm doing is out of any desire to do anything but make the industry better.

Thanks again for the feedback.

And @RonHebbard I'm open to suggestions!

 

[josh88]

As for my debt decision, you need to be more empathetic. Put yourself in a college student's shoes. The government denied your financial aid. Family can't afford to help you. Your local town is so small that no job can afford to pay you a livable wage (and I'm not talking $15/hr, I'm talking $8/hr) AND give you hours. Then you get this job offer through a "friend": a full-time, salaried gig across country with great benefits, plenty of work, in a booming industry. Come on, move on down, try it! Wouldn't you give that even a portion of thought? And to be fair, I didn't have any mentors or guidance when I was living in Arizona struggling to buy ramen to eat... I had to learn the hard way. That's why I borrowed enough books on lighting to teach myself what I know now. Every screw up I've ever made has been a learning experience.

As for the IATSE card, prepare yourself for a shock: no one ever told me about that. *gasp* You don't have to believe it, but it's true. So here's your opportunity to educate me in a polite, mentor-like manner. I'm listening. As for getting to know people, who do you get to know in a town of 16,000 with a non-union public theare, church-run community theatre, and an engineering school with a focus in aviation?? Believe me, I tried! Once I moved here to FL I started putting out feelers immediately!
And @RonHebbard I'm open to suggestions!

I've been in those shows. Those exact same shoes. I worked and freelanced during college to keep from accruing any debt and if nobody mentioned IA as an option, your schooling and own research was inadequate. IA certainly isn't for everybody, I have no real desire to join given what I want to do and where I want to work. My college town was 20k during the school season and less than 10 in the off season. No union around, one roadhouse 30 minutes away. What did I do to learn? I did lighting for high schools in the area. networked, rebuilt a program in an inner city, figured out what experience I needed, what I wasn't getting from school and made it happen on my own. Its part of why I'm still learning to say no, since I don't NEED the work anymore.

 

[9voltnewbie]

10 years doing lighting design, programming, and show control, as well as 8 years of simultaneous experience in professional videography with an Associates in Film, Media Arts, and a Bachelors in English just for fun.

I'm confused, where were these degrees earned? You mentioned Embry-Riddle, but there was no other mention of another college or university.

 

[dvsDave]

Please just understand that nothing I'm doing is out of any desire to do anything but make the industry better.

Hey Nate,

I am going to offer some advice.

I started CB back when I was a freshman in college. I made a LOT of missteps at first and there were guys who decided that CB was an idea worth investing their time in and they helped me correct some of my obviously rookie mistakes when it came to understanding this industry. So, I want to pass onto you some of what I learned.

These guys are trying to help you. Please understand that and try not to be so defensive and argumentative. They are trying to help you understand what you don't understand. It's clear to everyone here that you have very little experience and don't know how this industry actually works. It's insulting to some that you are trying to solve a problem when you clearly don't have enough experience in the industry to know how it works.

Let me give you an example. When I started up ControlBooth, I wrote up an article on how to make your own stage pin extension cables. I spent a couple days documenting my process, and writing up the multi-page article. I was pretty proud of my article and I posted a link to it on the stagecraft mailing list, and then went to bed. The next morning, i wake up to the longest email I've ever gotten in my whole life. It was from a guy on the stagecraft mailing list. It was a critique of my article. It was so long, that I printed the email out so I could go over it carefully. It was SIXTEEN PAGES long. It took me hours to go over every single point that he made, from my lack of strain relief on the cable to how I incorrectly stripped the cables, to how I looped the cables around the post in the wrong direction, and finally how I used the wrong cable in the first place.

I was stunned. I thought I knew what I was doing and had spent days on this one article only to have it so thoroughly shredded, in excruciating detail, pointing out every single thing I did wrong. I honestly didn't know how to respond, but I knew that I didn't have the experience or the skills to be able to correct my article, let alone be able to build stage pin extension cables correctly. So, you know what I did? I never wrote a technical article again. Instead, I asked this guy if he would help make sure the advice given by the community on Controlbooth was accurate. That’s how Ship became the first CB moderator.

I had realized the secret to my success on ControlBooth. I didn’t have to know the details, but I had a duty to understand the industry and provide a platform that would be helpful to the industry. My goal wasn’t to change the industry, but to make sure that people like yourself had access to the information that they needed and good, solid advice from experienced pro’s in the industry. EXACTLY as you are getting now.

Controlbooth has been around since 2003. All of my success has come because I was smart enough back then to realize that I didn't know anything and I needed to listen and let the real experts do the talking.

 

[Adam Lien]

Hey Nate,

I am going to offer some advice.

I started CB back when I was a freshman in college. I made a LOT of missteps at first and there were guys who decided that CB was an idea worth investing their time in and they helped me correct some of my obviously rookie mistakes when it came to understanding this industry. So, I want to pass onto you some of what I learned.

These guys are trying to help you. Please understand that and try not to be so defensive and argumentative. They are trying to help you understand what you don't understand. It's clear to everyone here that you have very little experience and don't know how this industry actually works. It's insulting to some that you are trying to solve a problem when you clearly don't have enough experience in the industry to know how it works.

Let me give you an example. When I started up ControlBooth, I wrote up an article on how to make your own stage pin extension cables. I spent a couple days documenting my process, and writing up the multi-page article. I was pretty proud of my article and I posted a link to it on the stagecraft mailing list, and then went to bed. The next morning, i wake up to the longest email I've ever gotten in my whole life. It was from a guy on the stagecraft mailing list. It was a critique of my article. It was so long, that I printed the email out so I could go over it carefully. It was SIXTEEN PAGES long. It took me hours to go over every single point that he made, from my lack of strain relief on the cable to how I incorrectly stripped the cables, to how I looped the cables around the post in the wrong direction, and finally how I used the wrong cable in the first place.

I was stunned. I thought I knew what I was doing and had spent days on this one article only to have it so thoroughly shredded, in excruciating detail, pointing out every single thing I did wrong. I honestly didn't know how to respond, but I knew that I didn't have the experience or the skills to be able to correct my article, let alone be able to build stage pin extension cables correctly. So, you know what I did? I never wrote a technical article again. Instead, I asked this guy if he would help make sure the advice given by the community on Controlbooth was accurate. That’s how Ship became the first CB moderator.

I had realized the secret to my success on ControlBooth. I didn’t have to know the details, but I had a duty to understand the industry and provide a platform that would be helpful to the industry. My goal wasn’t to change the industry, but to make sure that people like yourself had access to the information that they needed and good, solid advice from experienced pro’s in the industry. EXACTLY as you are getting now.

Controlbooth has been around since 2003. All of my success has come because I was smart enough back then to realize that I didn't know anything and I needed to listen and let the real experts do the talking.

Dave,

My name is Adam and I'm working closely with Nate on this project. I just want to clarify a few things! First off, through the means of typing, I know Nate's posts may come off strong and argumentative when read that way, he's just a very passionate individual. However, I've read through all the posts on this thread and talked with him in person, and he is as well as I am taking all of this advice genuinely! It has been extremely helpful!

We may not have the 20+ years experience that some of the vets have, but we're not inexperienced either. The portion of the industry we're more familiar with, the starting off end of things so to speak is what we're targeting. Once you're in the industry and reputable, yes I feel the way things are works great for people that have the reputation and skill set. However, for technicians starting out or even someone that has recently relocated, it takes time and lots of good reviews and grunt work to work your way up and build the connections you need to make a living. RTECS is a medium for technicians without a lot of experience to be found by clients with similar levels of experience or budget restraints but still the desire to increase the quality of their show. A small speaking event, wedding, graduation, local band, you name it just looking to make themselves look and feel a little more professional but without the budget to hire on a pro lighting designer or audio engineer would benefit from having a website where you can specify a budget and hire someone who's by no means a professional but still a lot better than Joe's brother who dabbles. In that sense its a win win for techs looking to make some money and gain more experience as well as clients on a budget looking for something a step up from a relative but not as high end as a union tech or someone staffed from a production company. That's RTECS main goal. To help both those starting off on the performing end by providing an available list of technicians that fit their needs and budgets and to also aid young techs starting out in the industry. And if the concept does well we would expand into larger portions of the industry, but our target market is the little guy.

I hope this brings some clarification and understanding, once again, we are very open to advice and criticisms. It has all been helpful!

Thanks,
Adam

 

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A small speaking event, wedding, graduation, local band, you name it just looking to make themselves look and feel a little more professional but without the budget to hire on a pro lighting designer or audio engineer would benefit from having a website where you can specify a budget and hire someone who's by no means a professional but still a lot better than Joe's brother who dabbles. In that sense its a win win for techs looking to make some money and gain more experience as well as clients on a budget looking for something a step up from a relative but not as high end as a union tech or someone staffed from a production company. That's RTECS main goal. To help both those starting off on the performing end by providing an available list of technicians that fit their needs and budgets and to also aid young techs starting out in the industry. And if the concept does well we would expand into larger portions of the industry, but our target market is the little guy.

I hope this brings some clarification and understanding, once again, we are very open to advice and criticisms. It has all been helpful!

Thanks,
Adam

The only issue I have with that is you have to let your "clients" know that. You have the possibility of X promoter who gets annoyed with paying a certain rate and then gets a bunch of kids of your site to do their show. They do it, but they do a lot of things wrong/unsafe/whatever to just get the job done. Maybe someone gets hurt. Maybe someone doesn't. Maybe the show goes off great. Maybe it doesn't. Your basically enabling the "bottom feeder" mentality there. Not saying it will happen, but for the uninformed or cheapskate promoter it is a real possibility. Seems like you are setting yourself up for a race to the bottom.

Your biggest issue it seams is the simple lack of understanding of how the hiring process works or what makes a good employee. It is clear to me that no one involved at RTECS has ever been involved in staffing a call and maintaining a call list. It is way skewed towards the employee side, not the employer.

Dare I ask what the revenue model is for this? Because if you are charging anyone you could be in for a world of hurt if/when something does go south.

 

[Adam Lien]

The only issue I have with that is you have to let your "clients" know that. You have the possibility of X promoter who gets annoyed with paying a certain rate and then gets a bunch of kids of your site to do their show. They do it, but they do a lot of things wrong/unsafe/whatever to just get the job done. Maybe someone gets hurt. Maybe someone doesn't. Maybe the show goes off great. Maybe it doesn't. Your basically enabling the "bottom feeder" mentality there. Not saying it will happen, but for the uninformed or cheapskate promoter it is a real possibility. Seems like you are setting yourself up for a race to the bottom.

Your biggest issue it seams is the simple lack of understanding of how the hiring process works or what makes a good employee. It is clear to me that no one involved at RTECS has ever been involved in staffing a call and maintaining a call list. It is way skewed towards the employee side, not the employer.

Dare I ask what the revenue model is for this? Because if you are charging anyone you could be in for a world of hurt if/when something does go south.

Thank you for your comments,

I have been involved in hiring, interviewing and firing. Unfortunately I can't go into great detail about these concepts without an NDA. However, RTECS is not doing any of the actual hiring for the clients. We are simply giving the information and making the most optimal match suggestions for the client to use at his or her discretion. There will be checks and balances on both sides to protect clients and techs. As for payment, it will act as a headhunter service, you don't pay unless you book someone and get satisfactory ratings as well as that someone receives a satisfactory rating. Again I can't get into more fine details, but the fine details and business model were not the point of the thread initially. We're simply looking for feedback via surveys. The advice has been all taken into consideration and we are making additions.

 

[Pie4Weebl]

New rule on the internet: If you are trying to make a point, it can't be followed up with " I can't give any details without an NDA".

Why am I allowed to make this rule, well I can't tell you with out an NDA

 

[dvsDave]

This thread is CLOSED until Nate and Adam respond to my Private Message.