Motorized Fly System

[SteveB]

I suspect those reporting have no clue as to what actually happened.

I cannot imagine a runaway where the student held on to the rope for 75ft of travel, then hits his head, then waits till rescue arrives and they rig a rescue basket and lower him to the deck.

If that's really what happened, then I'm amazed.

 

[danTt]

Teenager rescued from East Lake High auditorium catwalk has more information as well.

I wonder if he was standing on an arbor to unload weight, and the arbor he was standing on was out of balance and ran? This is the only way I could see him making the full 75' accension without falling and doing much more damage when he hit his head... might also explain how he got hoisted onto the catwalk. Can't think of how else this story could possibly happen

Edit: and East Lake High School student suffers head injury taking down theatre set says 100'. I've now seen 30', 75', and 100'. Clearly the news agencies are not sure what they are talking about.

 

[Euphroe]

Just to see if we are all understanding the situation, there is a loafing gallery they choose not to use preferring loading from the floor and hand injuries are rope burns from out of balance sets.

I like the idea of a loafing gallery.

Most schools would be best off with 3 or 4 motorized electrics, some or all of the curtains dead-hung/tracked, and a handful of counterweight sets with Tiffin Restrictor ropelocks that can hold a one thousand pound imbalance, and cannot be released if the set is imbalanced. The locks are $600 per and can be retrofitted.

I rarely see a school counterweight system without at least one bend in the stoprail from a crashed set.

Counterweight systems require skill and consistency. Schools lack both.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I like the idea of a loafing gallery.

Most schools would be best off with 3 or 4 motorized electrics, some or all of the curtains dead-hung/tracked, and a handful of counterweight sets with Tiffin Restrictor ropelocks that can hold a one thousand pound imbalance, and cannot be released if the set is imbalanced. The locks are $600 per and can be retrofitted.

I rarely see a school counterweight system without at least one bend in the stoprail from a crashed set.

Counterweight systems require skill and consistency. Schools lack both.

The problem with dead hanging the curtains is it can then never rise above mediocre acoustically and the curtains, always at floor level, wear out early from the normal activities.
As far as motorizing, schools are not so good at funding performing arts at all and adding motors at annual maintenance that too often won't get done.
I think the district I'm working with that has 5 high schools all with manual counterweight rigging on the stages also have a full time theatre specialist. Seems like a much better answer than so severely limiting function and opportunities.

 

[StradivariusBone]

I think the idea of a ropelock that holds excess of the standard 40# or 50# would encourage out-of-balance scenarios and train young riggers to trust the lock. When they get their hands on a standard counterweight system they might not understand that it won't hold a heavy arbor in the air. This has been debated elsewhere on the board.

The tradeoff between Bill and Euphroe is a real life event where I work. 6 PAC's with theatre managers who handle everything from booking to maintenance to set building and training stagecraft students. The newest high school was in the planning stages of building their performance space when the principal decided he didn't want to have to deal with a manager position and they went dead hung, three motorized electrics (which have never moved, nor does any light in that building have gel on it) and now their cyc (which blocks the three upstage exits since there's no way to fly it out and it is mostly useless since the cyc lights have no gel) is jury-rigged up with clothesline so you can get in and out of the doors.

In those situations, maintenance of the technical side of the building falls on the most experienced person using the space for their events, usually a drama or music teacher or both. Stuff gets broken and sometimes gets replaced, but without the income from someone actively generating bookings the money comes from the programs using the space. Before making a career change, I'd taught band in three schools without a TD and all three had spaces that have been used and abused. The first one had more lamps out than good, so bad that initially I thought the board was bad. It took months to get them replaced and even longer to find a county maintenance team that would do it.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

And when I do a "dead hung" stage - usually budget driven - I simply put in catwalks across the stage for lighting. Cost less than motorized electrics and eliminates ladder/lift work for focusing - which is where I see injuries - ladder falls. Plus the catwalks add some convenience and opportunities to "rig" something - if only a couple of students dropping snow flakes of leaves. To try to improve acoustics, either no borders - exposed overhead like a thrust and black box stages - or borders are on traveler tracks to get them out of the space. Adding tracks under and between catwalks affords a kind of horizontal rigging option for drops and scenic pieces. This is usually an approach when a high trim is 35' or so max - since that doesn't permit set over set - or more specifically for a shell tower to pass under legs and travelers.

And I agree with Strad on the Restrictor - just have never sipped the Tiffin kool-aid on that one. Train and retain people right. Maybe you can dumb down equipment enough so no training or plain competence is necessary, but who is going to maintain the basics for safety in an assembly occupancy if not the "theatre guy/gal"? The folks that run the rigging are usually the same ones that make sure the basic auditorium is safe from means of egress and so on.

 

[Euphroe]

And I agree with Strad on the Restrictor - just have never sipped the Tiffin kool-aid on that one. Train and retain people right. Maybe you can dumb down equipment enough so no training or plain competence is necessary, but who is going to maintain the basics for safety in an assembly occupancy if not the "theatre guy/gal"? The folks that run the rigging are usually the same ones that make sure the basic auditorium is safe from means of egress and so on.

Old-school riggers argue against fall protection by saying people who rely on it get sloppy, and to simply hire good riggers who won't fall and not amateurs. Everybody has now sipped the lanyard Kool-Aid and we've dumbed down high rigging. Why not rope locks?

Current rope lock designs pre-date the Model T Ford, literally. That Restrictors are too safe compared to traditional 50lb locks, is an argument against any safety advance. A kid who grows up with front wheel drive and ABS brakes might crash an older car someday, but we take that chance.

I specced Restrictors on a specialized application for touring shows, and the locks were super reliable in operation. We could not have built a usable system with conventional locks in our application.

Carl Sagan couldn't put a number on the crashed sets in high schools over the years. Most of these real-world accidents could be prevented by an incremental advance in rope lock design. I cannot see the argument that we should live with an unceasing clatter of real-world accidents because some hypothetical student exposed to a Restrictor will later crash a set on his first day as a flyman at the Met.

And if he walks into the Met and releases a lock on a set that is 400lbs out of weight and not snubbed, who left it like that?

* * * *

I agree, catwalks are great. Acoustics are icing on the cake, once basic needs are met.

Among countless other wonders, I saw a number of school auditoriums originally planned for a flyhouse, then budget-cutting resulted in deleting the top 20' - 30' of the flyhouse from the plan. In two cases the counterweight systems remained in the spec and actually got built, with barely enough fly space to get the curtain hems 5' off the floor. This is the kind of application where a contractor might propose a line winch LX because the building was not constructed with catwalks but does have loft steel.

A school in San Francisco asked me to price to "synthetic purhase lines" to reduce friction. The system was 70 years old. It had been built with double-purchased arbors, but single-purchased liftlines, all running over a single-purchase head block. So the purchase line was trying to run at 2x the speed of the lift lines and had to skid through the sheave. No slick rope was going to help. It had been this way for decades and nobody knew better. Again, this is the kind of stuff rigging contractors see in the field and you solve it as best you can, sometimes with a mix of dead-hungs and upgraded LX sets.


* * * * * * *

That injured kid launched into the fly loft -- was he holding a batten? That's an old problem -- 10 guys holding an unloaded batten while the set is unsnubbed so the arbor can be eased down; starts running too fast; nine guys let go, but not the brave soldier on the end of the pipe, who gets launched. The classic version ends with the pipe slamming against the grid, a pregnant pause, then a voice in the darkened loft saying, "It's okay -- just let in the 2nd Legs" -- he'd grabbed them on the way up.

 

[Tex]

Among countless other wonders, I saw a number of school auditoriums originally planned for a flyhouse, then budget-cutting resulted in deleting the top 20' - 30' of the flyhouse from the plan. In two cases the counterweight systems remained in the spec and actually got built, with barely enough fly space to get the curtain hems 5' off the floor.

I worked in a school like this. The district didn't like the way the building looked because one end was much higher than the other. :/

 

[VCTMike]

I worked in a school like this. The district didn't like the way the building looked because one end was much higher than the other. :/

Our re-build in a 2004 bond had a fly space included and a few more automated fixtures - until the athletics people wanted lighting on the fields for night games and a new scoreboard for a non-existent (but clearly planned future) football team. The whole round-about of bypassing the taxpayers wishes has been interesting for the past 10 years as voters did not approve funding for football - and yes, they now have a football team, initially supported by some hastily arranged booster club that has now morphed into fully paid coaches, training facilities, etc. Taxpayers be damned.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Acoustics are icing on the cake, once basic needs are met.

Maybe for you, but for me acoustics are primary and basic. If nothing else, the audience has to see and hear well in comfort and safety in these spaces; and the room should be as supportive of the performers as possible.

 

[DuckJordan]

Also note, High rigging has not been dumbed down, only made safer. Rope locks designed to hold 1k out of weight is a disaster waiting to happen. You now have kids who have learned its okay to take a super out of weight line set and leave it there just on the rope lock. Those same kids go to a house that doesn't have the 1k rope locks and does the same thing. Instant runaway recipe.

I'm all for making things safer in our industry but I do not believe anything involving rigging should be reliant on a tool that is so scarcely monitored such as a rope lock. I have never seen in person a house that locks their rope locks, in any way. Be that a cage, a hole in the rope lock for a padlock or cable or similar. I have seen several high schools and venues with no constant staff who have a fly system but barely know how to use it. Putting a tool that promotes unsafe habits is just like handing a loaded gun to a 5 year old.

 

[StradivariusBone]

With counterbalance systems, there's a safe way to operate without a super lock. With high rigging there's not a safe way to do it without a lanyard. I'm not sure that's the best analogy.

I do see where a rope lock would make attaching oddly shaped scenery pieces or travelers easier, but I also see the potential in allowing for out of balance conditions to exist and persist. A lot would depend on the house and personnel. To each their own.

 

[Euphroe]

Maybe for you, but for me acoustics are primary and basic. If nothing else, the audience has to see and hear well in comfort and safety in these spaces; and the room should be as supportive of the performers as possible.

I think we probably agree a lot more than we disagree. Designing/consulting as you do, yes acoustics are an indispensable part of the job. But as a contractor asked to make recommendations to address multiple safety problems, an asbestos fire curtain, non-functional equipment, and with zero trained personnel on the district payroll, improving the acoustics barely rates as a consideration. If in the course of replacing the rigging and soft goods, we can make good acoustic choices for the same budget, without compromising safety, then yes it's an obligation.

When your job is to clear mines and de-fuse unexploded bombs, you can't afford to be fussy about acoustics. That's what life is like for rigging contractors. Sometimes you get to build brand-new professional theaters designed by ASTC consultants. But most of the time, you get called to schools to clear grenades. Just as often, you get called to measure/price curtains, and discover two or three unexploded grenades the school did not know they had. And I am not talking about innocuous backwards crosby clips -- I mean real hazards.

 

[Euphroe]

With counterbalance systems, there's a safe way to operate without a super lock. With high rigging there's not a safe way to do it without a lanyard. I'm not sure that's the best analogy.

I do see where a rope lock would make attaching oddly shaped scenery pieces or travelers easier, but I also see the potential in allowing for out of balance conditions to exist and persist. A lot would depend on the house and personnel. To each their own.

Lots of guys can climb without falling, and can run 50-lb locks without crashing a set. Many of us did both for decades.

But a world full of workers without fall protection inevitably leads to accidents. And a world full of unskilled kids trying to use 50-lb locks leads to constant accidents. This is undeniable.

It is not possible to operate counterweight rigging without creating out-of-balance conditions. The sets cannot be 100% in balance 100% of the time.

The question is whether the operator can safely handle an imbalanced set. This takes a skill level that has never been achieved in sufficient numbers to prevent a constant stream of accidents.

So the argument that we simply need to achieve a sufficient skill level in every high-school class falls flat. It never happened, and never will.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

My job is to provide the best planning in the Owner's bets interest. If it means simply removing items, so be it. I have pushed converting a few stages from rag tag rigging and no value into more of a recital/concert hall stage because it could be good at that. If they can't afford to do something well, I suggest perhaps they not do anything other than make it safe. Seems like a poor use of taxpayer money to end up with a sub standard facility. Of course I'm hired and going to be paid regardless of my recommendations and you only get hired and paid if they authorize some rigging work, and of course the more the merrier for you. Do you ever consider that because a superintendent or principal or head maintenance person does not really know what they need? I get called into a lot of crappy, woe begone, school stages and auditoriums also have to tell them the 25 or 50K they thought would fix everything is woefully inadequate and explain why they should spend 10 or 50 times that and convince them it's worth it. It seems like you are willing to accept the 25 or 50K and do the best you can to make it safe.

 

[DuckJordan]

Lots of guys can climb without falling, and can run 50-lb locks without crashing a set. Many of us did both for decades.

But a world full of workers without fall protection inevitably leads to accidents. And a world full of unskilled kids trying to use 50-lb locks leads to constant accidents. This is undeniable.

It is not possible to operate counterweight rigging without creating out-of-balance conditions. The sets cannot be 100% in balance 100% of the time.

The question is whether the operator can safely handle an imbalanced set. This takes a skill level that has never been achieved in sufficient numbers to prevent a constant stream of accidents.

So the argument that we simply need to achieve a sufficient skill level in every high-school class falls flat. It never happened, and never will.

No the need to be trained properly, Adding a tool to teach them to do it improperly is just asking for trouble. That is what I am getting at. It is OK to have an out of balance line set. If the pipe is the heavy side it should be at the ground, and the reverse is true as well. Its much easier to stop an accident when the kid running it lets the break go at 50 lbs rather than 1000 lbs.

 

[Euphroe]

It seems like you are willing to accept the 25 or 50K and do the best you can to make it safe.

Yes I am that venal. When a stressed-looking lady with four kids brings me a '98 Corolla with worn brakes and asks me to fix it, I don't tell her she'd be happier with a new Lamborghini, no matter how true that might be. I fix the Corolla and take her lousy $500.

 

[Euphroe]

No the need to be trained properly, Adding a tool to teach them to do it improperly is just asking for trouble. That is what I am getting at. It is OK to have an out of balance line set. If the pipe is the heavy side it should be at the ground, and the reverse is true as well. Its much easier to stop an accident when the kid running it lets the break go at 50 lbs rather than 1000 lbs.

Have you ever used a Restrictor?

It will not release a 1000lb imbalance. It will only release a slack line. If you can't slack the line (by hand, with a come-along, however) the lock won't release.

So the kid is not going to crash a 1000lb set. They can't. That's the point.

The Restrictor is not a "tool to teach them to do it improperly", any more than a lanyard is a "tool to teach them to move unsafely." If you reduce the consequences of falling from height, have you encouraged people to act unsafely? That's silly.

It's much easier to prevent an accident when the machinery will not allow you to crash a set.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to prevent an accident by turning 50 years of schoolkids loose on machinery that can screw up as easily as a 50lb lock. When you install a counterweight system in a high school, it will be there for 50 years or more. Even if the school has a good instructor this year, it will not over the life span of that equipment. You're leaving a grenade for the future. Nearly every high school I ever visited had signs of a crashed set in the past.

I like counterweight sets and think it's neat that we let kids use them despite the risk. But it's a risk that could easily be mitigated with Restrictors or probably Sure Locks. I haven't used the JRC yet.

Moreover, the Restrictor is not just a "safety device." It's a great tool for advanced users. There are things you can do with a Restrictor that you can't justify doing by screwing around with sundays and Uncle Buddies.

We should be teaching kids how to really put CW rigging to work. Instead we're limiting what they do in an attempt to delay the inevitable set accident caused by the 50-lb lock. Install Restrictors and not only is it safer, you can teach them to play with carpet hoists and other tricks.

The only justification I see for 50lb locks is lack of money. 50lb locks are demonstrably less safe and less useful.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Well, obviously the majority disagree, beginning with the ANSI standard says 50 pounds is fine.

 

[Euphroe]

Well, obviously the majority disagree, beginning with the ANSI standard says 50 pounds is fine.

So?

All that means is that the majority thinks having a lot of counterweight accidents is okay because they're used to it.

Not so long ago, that was the consensus on fall protection. We changed that because we decided the accidents were intolerable.