Multiple video screens

[cvanp]

Hey all,

hopefully I can explain this well.

I was recently appointed the Set Designer for a production of Rent. One of the big ideas going in is that we'll be using a lot of projection.

Based on the preliminary "dreams" for the set, there might be anywhere between 5 and 10 distinct projectors operating at a time.

What those images are for:

Basically in our preliminary dreams, we have 5 (at most, 3 at least) giant industrial windows that will be RP'd on, with images of the environment. Because they'll be RP'd through the window, they don't have to look particularly crisp or nice.

At the end when Mark showcases his film, that obviously has to be projection. As the film starts again with the Finale, we want to bath the audience in projection as well. We figure we can get away with 4-5 projectors to cover the audience and the majority of the theatre's walls in light, if we position carefully. At that point, all the images are the same.

Because of the quality of projectors we have, projecting onto the audience is less for making the image visible, but to have shadow and light swirling over the audience, making them a part of the film. We know it won't be great quality already, and that's ok.

My concerns:

My biggest concern is that with that many projectors needing to be run, how the heck do we do it in a way that can be synced up and driven by one person to minimize problems? And really, what are the technical challenges that I don't know?

My most preliminary understanding of this is that we would need a super powerful computer with about 6 graphics cards with VGA out (some of those would double, for the projection on the audience which is all the same). But that just seems absolutely insane, and altogether impossible to pull off.

Another concern is budget. I'm only willing to take $1k out of the budget for this, but I can definitely find other sources of money for this through fundraising and such.

TO SUMMARIZE, what I kind of am looking to learn:

1. How would projecting to this many surfaces work?
2. What type of software/hardware would that require?
3. How much would it cost?

Thanks so much for your help! I know this is a big challenge but I am really committed to going the extra mile to make it happen, even if it means selling my soul to afford the appropriate equipment .



EDIT: Should I be looking into media servers? The only one I'm really familiar with is the Hippotizer, and it only has two outputs. As I said already we're looking for more.

Additional thoughts: I could probably do it with 3 outputs: 1 for the back upstage industrial window, 1 to be split among the stage left and right windows (however many there are) and 1 that would be designated as the end documentary video feed (to be projected onto a sheet or whatever out of the projector practical and onto the audience). That might simplify things.

 

[sk8rsdad]

It is possible to rear project onto multiple screens with a single projector as long as the space between the screens is masked with an opaque material. Since you're projecting through a wall of windows you may get away with a single projector.

QLab and an iMac 20 can drive 2 projectors without any additional hardware. QLab can drive up to 8 projectors but you need additional hardware.

 

[cvanp]

Unfortunately no, and even if so there are definitely 6 different "areas" that need projection - even with the duplication, we couldn't break it down to two distinct outputs (three is possible, but not two).


One thing I just found was a program called Wings Platinum, which would seem to offer functionality I need, if I provide multiple computers to act as slaves to the primary program (would this also help share the processing load, so it doesn't need to be a super crazy computer?).

Thanks again!



Edit: I guess with something like QLab, the question I have is could it trigger other computers? The problem with using a computer as opposed to an all-inclusive media server solution is that we don't have a box with the required outputs, and I suspect it wouldn't be cheap to build one.

Actually, suppose we were to build a Mac Pro with three video cards (are there enough PCI/e slots available? I should look that up) and just drive off QLab? Qlab is ideal because we all know Qlab in the department.

 

[fredo]

I just did a show with two projectors and rented two Folsom Presentation Pro's. Screw the graphic's cards, way to unstable for that many screens.

Your operator will be doing the equivalent of playing a piano if you do it live, but you could program to do some triggering. Anyway, you'd need to video D/I everything that will be on more than one screen at a time. But that will be, without a doubt, the most stable method of getting what you will need.

8 presets and one logo screen.

Nice. Now If I can just afford to purchase like 5 of these I'd be set. (they ain't cheep)

 

[cvanp]

A pure hardware solution like that is definitely the option. The only reason I'm really more interested in a system like QLab is because there will be a lot of looping video.

I think I can really narrow it down to only three outputs (that are split and amplified along the way) - that would make it a lot easier.

I'll look into this though, and bring it to our feasibility meeting next week!

 

[fredo]

Just be careful because those "hardware" pieces like the presentation pro are not cheap to rent cause they retail at 7G+. And that's not even the high Def Version. I'm not sure that they are even making the standard def one, but you will have to make sure on that.

Like I said. I just want like 2 or 3 of these things and I'd be in business!

 

[ruinexplorer]

I think what might help is if you could tell us what you have available and we can help you find a solution to make it work. $1000 isn't a large budget for certain pieces that you might need. I hope that you already have all the projectors and cabling that you need. You have mentioned the video DAs, do you have those already as well? Are you doing a long production where it is more feasible to buy the equipment or a short production where you could probably rent what you need? There are several options out there, many of them are not inexpensive, but I think we can come up with some solutions based on what you have at your disposal.

 

[cvanp]

We have all the projectors we need (well, we in the department don't, but we'll be able to scrounge them all up from across campus).

We have probably a decent amount of cabling, but I'd suspect to make the runs we'll need to make, we'll have to buy a chunk more.

We don't have amplifiers (that I know of offhand, although our Center for the Arts production staff probably has a lot of goodies that I can dig into).

$1000 isn't a lot, definitely, but I am anticipating I'll be able to arrange some fundraising, and ideally double or triple that.

This is not a long term production - only 5 performances - so we love rentals.

I'm really looking at the Mac Pro as an option. I know there's a question of reliability but with the built in graphics card that has two DVI outputs and then an additional graphics card that has two more, convert them all to DVI and then split/amplify as necessary, and drive them all in QLab. I think it'd be expensive, yes, but it'd also be a long term investment into future projection.

Also, as of now I plan to run the projection myself, no matter how we do it. Unless one of my trusted friends can get on the show call, I don't want to leave this to someone who might screw it up. If it gets messed up, it's going to be my fault.

Chris

 

[SHARYNF]

Here is another take on this:
IMO there are two ways to go, one is a high end concert/production media server that costs a fortune and needs to be all programmed, and is definitely what is used in High production value productions. BUT Again IMHO simply not practical for just a few shows


OR what I do for these type of productions is pretty much a low tech deal

I Have a bunch (about a dozen) identical projectors (I happen to have selected a while a go a Sharp Notevision xg c40xu svideo/vga 1024x768 native projector

I then have (yeah I know definitely low rent stuff) another bunch of Numark VJ01 uinits (mainly because they will play back computer based video and have a build in LCD display have playback speed control and also basic cuing


I then assign projector to screen area, and make up specific DVD;s for each dvd player. Most of the time for this more visual stuff I run S video. If I need to have switching and NO effects I go with a simple Panasonic SW 104 or if I need more effects I typically use a Panasonic MX50.

I use either extron or Kramer s video distribution


If I need elaborate multi screen covering one image I happen to have an ex military RGB spectrum computer wall device with takes multiple VGA inputs or if I need to have multiple images all on one screen I have another RGB spectrum unit that lets me put multiple sources any where on the screen. For simple stills or more fixed backgrounds I typically can wip something up in power point.

I have done a lot of rear projection but also have recently been working with a combination of front projection on a canvas that has been painted with Wildfire invisible UV reactive paint, and some UV lights. This way I have the ability to add projection along with painted scene but control it via the combination of UV and Projection.

Sharyn

 

[NickJones]

I saw a gadget on a VJ site that let you use a piece of hardware that plugged into the VGA of your standard video card, and it then broke out into 4 or 5 VGA outputs, this showed up on your computer as one massive screen with an insanely wide resolution, despite the fact it was actually a number of screens. This could be an option.

Alternately, you could get a whole stack of USB video cards, they will set you back about $100 each for a middle of the range one.

Nick

 

[SHARYNF]

In my experience the problem with the multiple vga card solution is it works fine for taking a single video feed and splitting it over multiple projectors, but when you try to run multiple video sources out to individual or mixed projectors it doesn't work very well. In that model you have to run multiple instances of a media player all in different sections of your now huge desktop, and there is little or no repeatability of the precise placement when you restart the computer. In addition multiple copies of the media player tends to really summer in performance and your ability to control all the players without disturbing the output windows again all displayed over the huge desktop is difficult and can be confusing

Sharyn

 

[metti]

If you can get your hands on a bunch of computers (they don't even have to be super powerful) you can install a free download of Arkaos MediaMaster on each one and control all of them over ethernet from one computer running Chamsys MagicQ (also free). There will be a learning curve for both programs but if you can figure it out you will have a single theatre stack type thing which will control all of your projectors. The upside is that the software is all free. the downside is that you will have to beg borrow and rent a bunch of computers.

 

[cvanp]

SHARYNF: My understanding of Qlab is that it can cue all this up, and spit out directly to up to 8 outputs. I would never be even considering this option if it weren't for Qlab.

metti: I'll take a look at that. Being in a university setting, there are dozens of computers lying around, so I can definitely get extra computers. That might be a good option. Thanks!

 

[kiwitechgirl]

We did something reasonably similar last year, when we ran three different video feeds off a MacPro, with 2 dual graphics cards, running QLab. The fact that each of the feeds went to a video splitter which then ran four TVs each is irrelevant! We went into it with a similar viewpoint as you seem to have, ie that QLab would do what we needed it to. The Mac we were running off was pretty powerful - I can't tell you the exact specs, sorry - and we had nothing but problems. The video stuttered, didn't always start immediately, the computer froze, QLab crashed and so on and so on. My advice would be to try it long before you need it so that if it doesn't work, you can look at other options. Also, don't forget that you'll need one of your outputs to drive the computer monitor so that you can see what you're doing!

 

[SHARYNF]

Obviously there are lots of options. Arkaos Media Master free download is a trial so you would have to make sure it would all be able to be accomplished within the limits of the trial. I did some quick checking and the free version has an image water mark. The other point that might be an issue is that version 1 does not have very good syncing between units, version 1.1 is a bit better but currently there is no network based syncing implimented. In addition it appears that the current software will only work to a SINGLE graphics card, you would have to use something like quad view to do the split post the graphics card. If you look at the demo's that are posted of the system in use, it does look like they mainly seem to be setup that each processor is driving a single stream,,, it might be split over several projectors but it is a single stream.

I am not a mac person so I have no experience with Qlab. I do know that running multiple video streams at decent quality and full screen size is not a trivial task.

Again in my experience if you have the time and patience and the equipment budget and the skill to program up exactly what you want, then the software solutions are a good option. There are a number of people who make a good living doing just this sort of design/programming.

Most of the stuff I have done with this has been something that is for a few performances, needs to be done quickly, and is reasonably bullet proof.

anyway just a suggestion on one approach

Sharyn

 

[metti]

Obviously there are lots of options. Arkaos Media Master free download is a trial so you would have to make sure it would all be able to be accomplished within the limits of the trial. I did some quick checking and the free version has an image water mark. The other point that might be an issue is that version 1 does not have very good syncing between units, version 1.1 is a bit better but currently there is no network based syncing implimented. In addition it appears that the current software will only work to a SINGLE graphics card, you would have to use something like quad view to do the split post the graphics card. If you look at the demo's that are posted of the system in use, it does look like they mainly seem to be setup that each processor is driving a single stream,,, it might be split over several projectors but it is a single stream.

I am not a mac person so I have no experience with Qlab. I do know that running multiple video streams at decent quality and full screen size is not a trivial task.

Again in my experience if you have the time and patience and the equipment budget and the skill to program up exactly what you want, then the software solutions are a good option. There are a number of people who make a good living doing just this sort of design/programming.

Most of the stuff I have done with this has been something that is for a few performances, needs to be done quickly, and is reasonably bullet proof.

anyway just a suggestion on one approach

Sharyn

The MediaMaster watermark is on your preview which only you see not on the actual output. You are correct that it doesn't handle multiple video cards which is why I said the OP would need one computer per projecter. Since MediaMaster wants its controls via DMX, I have been using Artnet from a Chamsys MQ100 Pro to control a bunch of them but there is no reason I know of why Artnet from MagicQ running on a computer wouldn't work just as well. Of course, as I mentioned, both these programs are relatively complicated, especially MagicQ and if the OP has little or no experience with Avos or Hogs and media servers getting it all up and running in a limited amount of time might prove somewhat tricky.

 

[tyler.martin]

Just be careful because those "hardware" pieces like the presentation pro are not cheap to rent cause they retail at 7G+. And that's not even the high Def Version. I'm not sure that they are even making the standard def one, but you will have to make sure on that.

Like I said. I just want like 2 or 3 of these things and I'd be in business!

They do still make the standard def version, any cost wise, i rent mine for $250.00 CAD per day, relatively cheap compared to a Vista Spyder system + operator

Despite that fact, The pres pro's only have one sourced output. If you want to go hardware route you might want to look at the Folsom Screen Pro, which can take multiple inputs and map them to various outputs.

 

[SHARYNF]

The MediaMaster watermark is on your preview which only you see not on the actual output. You are correct that it doesn't handle multiple video cards which is why I said the OP would need one computer per projecter. Since MediaMaster wants its controls via DMX, I have been using Artnet from a Chamsys MQ100 Pro to control a bunch of them but there is no reason I know of why Artnet from MagicQ running on a computer wouldn't work just as well. Of course, as I mentioned, both these programs are relatively complicated, especially MagicQ and if the OP has little or no experience with Avos or Hogs and media servers getting it all up and running in a limited amount of time might prove somewhat tricky.

My understanding (not from actual experience) is that the syncing of multiple machines is an issue. There is no network sync in the system. Supposedly version 1.1 as a better internal sync that is more stable via the video card,


So you have run the download demo version and the output does not have a water mark, it is only the preview that the operator sees? not the audience? Is this the mac version of the pc version/ the latest 1.1 version?
For a simpler interface can it work with the entec USB dmx interface and then just use a dmx console?

Sharyn

 

[cvanp]

We did something reasonably similar last year, when we ran three different video feeds off a MacPro, with 2 dual graphics cards, running QLab. The fact that each of the feeds went to a video splitter which then ran four TVs each is irrelevant! We went into it with a similar viewpoint as you seem to have, ie that QLab would do what we needed it to. The Mac we were running off was pretty powerful - I can't tell you the exact specs, sorry - and we had nothing but problems. The video stuttered, didn't always start immediately, the computer froze, QLab crashed and so on and so on. My advice would be to try it long before you need it so that if it doesn't work, you can look at other options. Also, don't forget that you'll need one of your outputs to drive the computer monitor so that you can see what you're doing!

That's exactly what I had wanted to do. We would be going with a low-end Mac Pro (they're all quad core and we'd try to fill up RAM, but still) so that's realllllly depressing to hear.

Thank you though for sharing this because I know that's now not an option.

 

[cvanp]

I guess what's surprising (well, not surprising since video is still maturing, but frustrating) is that there is no *easy* solution for this.

I need four separate, distinct video channels, going to four separate, distinct outputs. I need to be able to set up cues for the videos in these channels, so the videos can be looping, and then on cue dissolve or transition some other way into the next video. They won't be long videos, just a ton of 20 or 30 second snippets that loop for five or ten minutes, then fade into the next looping video.

This really is annoying because I feel like it should be easier than it seems to be. I really can't stress how much I appreciate all the help with it, but I feel like I'm missing something critical - there has to be some way to do this with a media server or something that has this functionality.

It's not a problem to rent at all, and we're already looking at external research funding and various avenues to make it possible. Really, throw out my budget requirement, and tell me what the ideal solution is based on these requirements. I really just need to know the absolute smartest, easiest way possible, so I'm not constantly switching between four different computers trying to set up all the various cues and loops that need to happen.

Because some things have to be synced (by ear) to music, I just won't have the time to go between four different computers and make a video change simultaneously - this has to be something where all four timelines, essentially, can be manipulated on one "go".

Maybe that explanation will help clarify more what avenue I'm looking for.

Again, thank you so much for the help - it's given me a better understanding of what's available and help me ruled out some options that won't work.

Thanks!
Chris