Musicals in an echo-y black box

[Chrisgen3721]

Hello all,

I work with a few student theater companies on a college campus, and one of our venues is a black box theater. It was built as a crossover theater/dance studio, so someone up top decided putting in a glossy hardwood floor would be a great idea. Besides the awful problems this causes with our lighting designs, the combination of the floor and space cause a horrible echo.
We do a few musicals every year, but cannot figure out how to make them sound even decent. We have 4 wireless head-mics, and some handheld Shure SM58s. What we're trying to figure out is how to balance the sound of the actors and the band. We usually put the band in the back corner next to the audience, with piano routed through the PA, and the other instruments amp'd. We have tried putting some rented condenser mics next to the audience to try to pick up the actor's, but it didn't help at all. We don't usually use the head-mics because they are obnoxious, distracting, and we only have four,which is not enough to mic everyone that needs them. We also have an effects processor, and someone recommended the "parking garage" setting, but I'm not sure why.

Does anyone have any suggestions or tips to help us? Thanks!

Chris

 

[sk8rsdad]

I don't think you can fix the problem with changes to amplification. The room needs acoustic amendment to soak up the reverberation.

Hire an acoustic engineer to analyze the room and design the amendments. After that, there are any number of treatments that might help. For instance, installing ceiling banners would reduce floor-ceiling reflections, as would baffles or wall panels. The right combination of absorbers and diffusers will make a big difference.

 

[BillESC]

Rent or buy black curtains (Commando Cloth or velour) with at least 50% fullness to go around the room.

 

[Footer]

Rent or buy black curtains (Commando Cloth or velour) with at least 50% fullness to go around the room.

Yup. Anything soft you can add to the venue, the better. Simple pipe and drap will also help. Floor mics and hanging mics will also help to a limited degree.

 

[tjrobb]

When we ran into this problem in our studio we took the old tabs & borders from the main stage and hung them down there. Works like a dream for us. YMMV

 

[FMEng]

As others have said, acoustically absorbtive materials will help tame the room reflections. But, the audience itself is absorbtive so the room will improve some with a house of people.

Been there, done that, lost my hair. The general idea is to help the singers by reducing the loudness of the band. The voices have to be above the accompanyment or the lyrics get lost.

Putting the band next to the audience seems like a bad idea. Put the band as far away from the audience as possible as distance attenuates. Avoid the megaphone of a corner. Place heavy absorbtion on the floor and on walls behind the band. Put drums behind shields/baffles or just plain get rid of a full kit.

Have the drummer use rods, not sticks. You should NOT have to mic the piano. Electric guitar amps need to be elevated and placed right next to the player's ear, (no I'm not kidding). The other musicians need to lower their playing to blend with the piano. If they do, then the singers will be heard without amplification.

It will take some work and buy-in on the part of the music director and the musicians to learn that they have to play softer. Invite each musician to individually sit in the house and listen during a rehearsal, and pay attention to the blend. Once they do, they will understand the need for restraint. This is a case of LESS IS MORE. A proper blend ensures ALL instruments and ALL singers get heard, instead of it being just drums and electric guitar.

Can you tell you struck a nerve?

 

[museav]

It was built as a crossover theater/dance studio, so someone up top decided putting in a glossy hardwood floor would be a great idea. Besides the awful problems this causes with our lighting designs, the combination of the floor and space cause a horrible echo.

Getting picky here but an echo is a discrete reflection sufficiently delayed from the direct sound so as to be perceived as a separate event. That is different than reverberation, a distinction that affects both the application in sound effects and in terms of room acoustics. For example, addressing excessive reverberation might lead to adding 'soft stuff' somewhere in the room while addressing an echo would make the location of the 'soft stuff' (acoustical absorption) critical. It is also common for addressing one aspect to uncover the other and reducing the overall reverberation of a room may allow discrete echoes that were effectively buried in the general reverberation to become more apparent if the treatments applied did not address the related surfaces. So it can be important to identify if the issue is a room that is simply too live in general or if discrete echoes are a factor.

What we're trying to figure out is how to balance the sound of the actors and the band.

Does the issue seem to be more the band being too loud or the actors being too soft or is it sort of equal parts of both?

We usually put the band in the back corner next to the audience, with piano routed through the PA, and the other instruments amp'd.

So you put the band near the audience and let the musicians control their own levels? That can often create a difficult situation to start with. Getting some control over the band levels by getting rid of their amps, going to electronic drums or drum enclosures and reducing or eliminating floor monitors by going to IEMs could certainly help. However, even things like facing amps at the musicians' ears rather than being aimed at their knees and facing the audience, guitarists using smaller amps so they can get the sound they want at lower levels and drummers using HotRods can often help significantly.

We have tried putting some rented condenser mics next to the audience to try to pick up the actor's, but it didn't help at all. We don't usually use the head-mics because they are obnoxious, distracting, and we only have four,which is not enough to mic everyone that needs them.

You cannot overcome basic physics. The further the microphones are from the actors not only the more you have to turn the microphones up in order to get the desired level for the actors but also the more of the band, sound system and room the microphones pick up. In a reverberant space or where dealing with other sound/noise sources you want to get the microphones as close to the actors' mouths as possible. In your case you apparently have both an acoustically live space and other noise sources in the room so you definitely want to try to minimize the mouth to microphone distance. You may not like the headset mics but something like that may offer the most improvement while not addressing this factor may require multiple of the other potential options to be implemented in order to achieve and acceptable result.

Think about it this way, if the microphone was 20' from the band and 20' from an actor and by changing to headset mics you changed that to the microphone being 40' from the band and 3" from the actor then just the change in the distances results in up to 6dB less pickup of the band and up to 38dB more pickup of the actor. Realistically, in a live room you would probably get a bit less than that on both numbers but that is still a huge difference and if the balance issues is a matter of too low a level from the actors then that kind of difference would be very difficult to achieve with any other solutions.

We also have an effects processor, and someone recommended the "parking garage" setting, but I'm not sure why.

I'm not sure why either as it sounds like one of the last things you would want to do is add artificial reverberation to the microphone signals.


One aspect you did not mention is the sound system. If the speaker system has spill onto the stage area or results in significant energy hitting the walls, floor and ceiling rather than the audience then that will exacerbate your problems. Poor coverage or levels and/or frequency response that vary throughout the listener area could also be a factor in terms of the relationship to the band levels and the overall intelligibility of the actors. Not using high pass filters on the mic channels or less than optimal systems tuning could lead to the system reproducing content that is not beneficial to the application. SO there may be both some factors and some options related to the sound system.

 

[josh88]

Have the drummer use rods, not sticks.

I would go as far as to have the drummer use brushes if drum noise is in fact an issue. The sound is a little different but for a drummer not used to having to play softly or not attack the drums the brushes lessen and muffle the sound enough to make a noticeable difference. We've had to do that a few times and were always impressed

 

[65535]

How big is your black box, in ours there is absolutely no need or use for sound reenforcement. However sound effects can be played through the system at appropriate levels.

 

[MilesDenison]

As others have said - sound treatment type things; some bass traps maybe if you can fashion them, and curtains.

I would also say to start using an rta in situations like these if you've got one.

 

[museav]

As others have said - sound treatment type things; some bass traps maybe if you can fashion them, and curtains.

I would also say to start using an rta in situations like these if you've got one.

Nothing wrong with bass traps or RTAs depending on what you're trying to do but can you clarify how bass traps or an RTA relate to the original issue that "What we're trying to figure out is how to balance the sound of the actors and the band."?

 

[sk8rsdad]

I think those of us keen on room acoustics are keying off this bit:

the combination of the floor and space cause a horrible echo

 

[MilesDenison]

Nothing wrong with bass traps or RTAs depending on what you're trying to do but can you clarify how bass traps or an RTA relate to the original issue that "What we're trying to figure out is how to balance the sound of the actors and the band."?

My bad. It was the whole "echo-y black box" bit that got in my head. Rereading this thread I realized I addressed the wrong issue. To back to the original problem - I would stick with some shotguns or condensers, and play with them to get them right.

 

[museav]

Getting off topic but I don't see the relevance of an RTA to echo or reveberation problems. You might use an octave or one-third octave RTA to gather noise or sound level and frequency data, however Real Time Analyzers by their very nature don't analyze the time domain aspect of sound and since time is a critical factor in analyzing echoes and reverberation, a simple RTA is thus of very limited use for any related analysis. I just don't want people thinking that having an RTA means they have the tools to address such analyses or acoustical issues.

I actually had a good example of this last night at a local community theatre performance. I was a volunteer usher and they let us watch the show from seats on one side wall of the black box space, so we had a big, flat, painted CMU wall behind us and another wall just like it directly opposite and parallel to it. Every time an actor made any loud exclamation while facing toward either side you distinctly heard the 'zing' tail of high frequency flutter echo. That is a reverberation and echo problem and an Impulse Response would show multiple, closely spaced peaks in the time domain at higher frequencies. However, an RTA would not provide any useful information regaridng the problem and bass traps would probably be a minimally effective, and rather cost ineffective, solution.

 

[MilesDenison]

Getting off topic but I don't see the relevance of an RTA to echo or reveberation problems. You might use an octave or one-third octave RTA to gather noise or sound level and frequency data, however Real Time Analyzers by their very nature don't analyze the time domain aspect of sound and since time is a critical factor in analyzing echoes and reverberation, a simple RTA is thus of very limited use for any related analysis. I just don't want people thinking that having an RTA means they have the tools to address such analyses or acoustical issues.

I actually had a good example of this last night at a local community theatre performance. I was a volunteer usher and they let us watch the show from seats on one side wall of the black box space, so we had a big, flat, painted CMU wall behind us and another wall just like it directly opposite and parallel to it. Every time an actor made any loud exclamation while facing toward either side you distinctly heard the 'zing' tail of high frequency flutter echo. That is a reverberation and echo problem and an Impulse Response would show multiple, closely spaced peaks in the time domain at higher frequencies. However, an RTA would not provide any useful information regaridng the problem and bass traps would probably be a minimally effective, and rather cost ineffective, solution.

I think you're reading too far into my comment. I assumed by the echoy bit, the reason that it was problematic for him is that it caused a great deal of feedback when trying to boundary or area mic things.
I was merely suggesting the rta to help him nail down troubling frequencies, so that he could try to tune the room appropriately - preforming changes and modifications, and seeing the results with the rta.
But I'll defer to your professional opinion on it.

 

[pmolsonmus]

May not be the simplest of solutions, but we solved this issue by recording the pit. It gave us more space to work with, and balance could be controlled by a fader from FOH. I would second the notion of curtains. Bass traps will help with standing waves, and although they would certainly be present, are probably not the core problem.

While it takes away from the immediacy of a performance, the ability of a performer to practice with the "exact" accompaniment has made the overall performances better.

Thinking outside of the (black) box,

YMMV
Phil