Control/Dimming Need Upgrade Advice

[jgaffney7643]

My very first post!​

My background:

I've been a techie since I was 12. My principle experience has been basic electrical work with ETC instruments, and design on ETC digital boards, though I designed for 3 years on an old(er than me) Strand analog board. As I was always handed a complete system and had but to hang the lights and cue the shows, I'm a complete novice in the intricacies of DMX wiring and system design.

My situation:

I am the resident (only) technician at a residential summer camp in Bucks County, PA. Before my time, and back into recent memory, there wasn't a technician at all. The owner is impressed with what I was able to do with 8 par cans and a $50 controller from BulbAmerica, so he wants to expand the system in a big way.

Frankly, a professionally installed system would be a bit of a waste of money in this setting, and I like the versatility of a system that isn't as hard-wired and permanent as they tend to be. Additionally, I fear that when a professional firm comes in and says "that'll be $15,000," the project will come to an abrupt end.

That being said, I feel that with a little bit of help I can competently put together an a la carte system that will be utilitarian, easy to use for me and the kids, and expandable should the owner continue to see potential.

The MAJOR hurdle, is that the space is a gymnatorium - a basketball court by day and theatre by night. Anything over the front of house either needs to be up and secure or easily removable.

What I have this far:

Eight par-38's that work surprisingly well considering they were $11 each, two optima "dimmer packs" that are actually just edison plugs strung together with 9-pin cable to a controller that works when you're very, very nice to it. I've come to the conclusion that the only thing to be salvaged from this system are the instruments. For $300, it served it's purpose.

I also have been investigating computer-based control software. I know this is heresy to the console faithful, but a console is just impractical in the space, and is cost prohibitive given that it'll be in a closet for 10 months of the year.

I rather enjoy MiniStageConsole for it's simplicity, it's similarity to the ETC system I am so familiar with, and it's free-ness.

I also have a basic idea of what instruments I'll be using. All stationary, mostly par cans and low-end ellipsoidal. It's a VERY small space, and there's no need to spend a fortune on top-of-the-line cans.

What I need from you good people:

Advice on how to put these elements together. I need dimmer packs that can handle upwards of 40 instruments, and I'd prefer not to end up spending more then $5,000, as the owner is also going to overhaul the sound system, which will be very costly. (For that we're bringing in a professional firm.)

I also want to know, frankly, if this seems feasible; if it is foolish presumption on my part to think I can put this together on my own and not waste my benefactor's money.

I look forward to your thoughts, thanks in advance!

-Jim

 

[Les]

One expense (and possibly biggest hurdle) that you will likely face is getting the power where you need it. If you need 40 dimmers, then you need a lot of power.

I assume you want to go with dimmer packs on this installation. I would advise this; since they're modular, portable, expandable, and cheap(er). Any time a permanent dimmer rack is added into the equation, you can expect to spend at least 15k on the dimming system alone.

Thing is, you will first want to plot out what instruments you want where to calculate how many dimmer packs you will need in any given area. Then you will need to figure out the power requirements for each location. I would advise running a dedicated 30 amp line per 4 channel dimmer pack. This is something that will need to be done by a licensed, qualified electrician. Once you have this done, you just need to select the proper equipment. You will need about 10 dimmer packs for 40 channels of control. Dimmer pack manufacturers such as NSI, Dove, Lightronics, Leprecon and ETC are all worth looking at. You probably want to work with shoebox dimmers. For that, look at NSI first. Be warned though, that each dimmer pack can range from about $300-900 depending on your needs in capacity. You probably want to get the largest capacity dimmer packs you can afford in order to satisfy the need for expandability. You definitely want that extra 'growing room'. If you don't think you will ever, ever need more than 600w/channel (1800 total); Elation/VEI/Chauvet packs aren't bad for controlling small par cans. If you plan on acquiring anything substantial (ellipsoidals, fresnels, par 64's) you definitely want to go with the big boys.

Hope this helps!

Edit: One thing you haven't mentioned is rigging. We won't discuss 'how to' rigging here on CB due to the inherent danger of rigging (per the CB TOS), but have you considered where and how you're going to hang your lights and dimmers? This may be another hidden expense as rigging is something that must be left to a professional. Keep in mind though, that anything front of house should be protected by a cage of some type as to protect the instruments from wayward basketballs and such. It wouldn't be a bad idea either to enlist an engineer to do a load calculation on the ceiling structure of the gymnatorium to ensure that it will handle the additional weight of all the infrastructure that you may end up adding. One way to avoid all this is to simply use crank up lighting trees, but I am not really qualified to recommend specific products or configurations. Lighting trees would definitely be the best choice if you feel the need to remove the equipment between productions.

Oh yea - welcome to the booth!

 

[BDS0111]

Hey Jim! No, it is not foolish to think that you can put this together on your own!! Just to be sure I am understanding this correctly... Are you hoping to spend $5,000 on just the dimmers or on everything you need to make the system work??

How big is the stage you are trying to light? Is it safe to assume that you are using a mobile stage that is broken down each night? What kind of events are you lighting? What kind of events are going on in the space during the day? How much time to do have to setup and prepare for each event each night???

 

[jgaffney7643]

To answer a couple of your questions, we have a licensed and highly experienced electrician on retainer, so getting power where we need it is no problem at all. Additionally, we have a top-notch carpenter on staff to put up bars for us - I'm going stationary bars as opposed to travelers because of space constraints; no fly tower.

I'm hazy on how dimmer packs work ... I know a permanent dimming rack has a device which brings everything together and defines all of the dimmers. When you have multiple dimmer packs in the space, do you daisy-chain them together, or do you need a device between the dimmers and the control device?

 

[jgaffney7643]

I'm hoping everything we need to make the system work will be around $5k. As I said we are planning a major refit of the sound system, and that is always a very expensive affair when you factor in that we are replacing all of our microphones with new wireless models.

The stage is a permanent fixture with proscenium arch. Roughly 25 feet wide by 12 feet deep with a 10 foot arch and no fly tower. My set up time can be up to 2 hours for major productions. Problem is that everything front of house either needs to be dead-hung out of basketball's-way, or needs to be collapse able. The latter is probably the way we're going to go, simply because the room has a 30 foot ceiling, and even if we hung everything at, say, 15 feet, I'd need a hefty ladder to get to everything, something the campers would not be allowed to do at all because of safety concerns.

For this I was thinking a 10-foot truss on stands - that way the truss can be lifted off the stands and carried away, allowing us to keep the lights somewhat focused.

We do pretty much everything from simple talent shows and the like all the way up to full scale musical productions and variety shows a la "Dancing with the Stars."

 

[mstaylor]

The hoebox dimmers are small 4 dimmer packs that are controlled by DMX. You daisey chain them together and control them from your board or computor.

 

[fredthe]

I'm hazy on how dimmer packs work ...

Here's quick lesson on "shoebox" dimmer packs, that were recommended above. To be clear, I'm talking DMX controlled dimmers, some of the manufacturers of small dimmers may also have their own protocol, which is only compatible with their board.

First, the dimmer packs. Typically these have one or two power inputs, and 4 to 6 outputs. Each output is individually controllable as a DMX channel. The pack will also have a DMX in and a DMX out, to facilitate daisy-chaining of the control signal. Note what was said above; each pack needs enough power to fully power all the lights connected to it. If you've got a 6-output dimmer, with 500W Pars on each output, you will need a minimum of two 15A circuits for that pack. Repeat for the number of packs that you have. Increase to 20A circuits if you use higher wattage instruments. If you are using lower-wattage lights, you may get away with only one 20A circuit per dimmer. Talk to your electrician about the power requirements before you do anything else... if you don't have enough power available you may be limited in what you can do. If power is a real constraint, then your only real choice is to go with LED lighting, but that may be too expensive for your needs.

Now, how the control portion works. Starting with the control board, the board outputs a DMX signal, on a 5 (or 3) pin connector. A DMX signal contains the level information for up to 512 dimmers. A cable is run from the board to the first dimmer pack, which is set at an address of 1. So, the first dimmer pack of 6 outputs is controlled by the first 6 channels of DMX information. Another cable is run from the DMX out of the first pack, to the DMX in of the 2nd pack. The 2nd pack is set to an address of 7, and listens to channels 7-12. Continue daisy-chaining packs until your are done. The last pack needs a DMX terminator connected to it's output.

-Fred

 

[Les]

Additionally, we have a top-notch carpenter on staff to put up bars for us - I'm going stationary bars as opposed to travelers because of space constraints; no fly tower.

A carpenter?

 

[fredthe]

A carpenter?

I think what Les is trying to say is that a carpenter (even a top-notch one) is unlikely to have the skills and experience to safely install pipes over people's heads. That is something that should be left to a qualified rigger.

-Fred

 

[highschooltech]

Here's a very quick and dirty plot that i did over the summer as a favor to a local drama group. I hung the lights with the LBO then programed some subs for him and let him run the show.

Gear List:
1 NSI MC7524
8- NSI DDS6000+
16- Altman 6x9 (500w), for your needs 8 could be cut and the rest become pars
16- Altman 6" Fresnel (500w) again could be pars but adjustable is nice
4- Par56 (500w i think)
About a mile of edison for runs to the distro

(All of which came out of the directors attic which i thought was a little strange. But, hey, i walked away with some cash for two days i wouldn't have otherwise been making money)

Power:
100amp Cam Service with distro (churches used mainly for their out door service)

This show was done in a cafatorium and the lighting bars were attached below the main beams of the roof. The 1st AP had a split in the middle of a basket ball hoop and hung down to about the level of the proscenium of the stage the rest were at the level of the ceiling.
In your case in order to save money replace the 6x9s over the stage with pars and cut the FOH specials and pattern washes. You can get cheap dimmers and two-fer lights by addressing them the same.
The way it is laid out above provided really good flexibility and did a great job lighting the stage without going overboard for a small show.

(Sorry for the quality of the attachment it wouldn't work with the PDF so i screen shot and cropped it)

 

[mrb]

you really need to think about your budget on this. Just the cabling for 40 lights in a portable setup is a serious amount of cash.

 

[gafftaper]

You can do much of this yourself. However you need a rigger (possibly a structural engineer) to safely hang your new pipes, your carpenter can help him. You also need an electrician which sounds like it's not a problem. I suggest you post some pictures of the space as well as a drawing of the layout so we can help you with things like placement.

A few random comments
-You can, but don't have to, daisy chain all your dimmers. You can buy a splitter to send the signal down multiple lines. Sometimes it's easiest to run one line from the control board to a splitter located somewhere above the stage. Then run multiple branch lines out from there. Addressing the dimmer packs works the same whether it's a daisy chain or branch system. Each line still needs to have a terminator. A wise technician will make sure that there is an easy way to reach the DMX signal backstage for future use (gobo rotators, dmx controlled fog machines, Rosco I-cues, LED's... who knows what's in your future). This can be done by using a splitter and having a branch dead end backstage or you could lay out your daisy chain so that the last dimmer pack is in a convenient location.

-You need a rigger and probably a structural engineer to hang your battens. Your carpenter can probably help the rigger do the work and save you some money.

-Getting an all DMX system is very important. NSI uses its own "MPX" language on some if not all of their gear. This means you will forever be forced to purchase NSI dimmers or control systems unless you spend several hundred extra on a conversion box. I believe that Elation and Chauvet's portable dimmer packs are all DMX systems. Elation and Chauvet's portable 4 pack and 6 pack are basicly the exact same products in build quality, durability, and price.

-Don't underestimate the cost of DMX and power cable. You can easily blow half your budget on cable. One good quality 25' DMX cable will cost you $50-$60. Remember For power cables most of us use 12/3 SO or SOOW cable (there are other types that are acceptable but it's not acceptable to use anything with a "J" in the name). A 25' 12/3 SO cable runs about $40. See this thread for more on power cables. SO, if you are going with portable dimmer packs have the electrician run power right next to where you want those new fixtures. This means you can install the dimmer pack as close as possible. Buy a 250' spool of cable and a bag of connectors and make your own power cables to the length you need. Better one long DMX run than multiple long power cable runs.

 

[jgaffney7643]

The guy we have builds the cabins the kids live in. I should stipulate that these are bars that will never move, they will be secured into the ceiling of the space. Last summer while hanging lights on the one we have my ladder went out and I hung on the bar. I'm confident in his abilities.

 

[jgaffney7643]

First, thank you SO much to all of you who have responded so far, your help is invaluable in this venture.

If my last post about the carpenter seemed terse, I apologize, I just phrased it poorly.

For bars that are never going to be moved is it really necessary to hire a rigger? I mean the bar he put up for me for my 8 par cans last summer is bolted into the ceiling of the room. As I said, I literally hung from it in a pinch (a no-no, but it kept me from falling on my head.)

A friend of mine if a rigger for Foy, and I know how much he charges per hour.

I just need to be able to explain to my boss why it's so important to bring in a rigger, as opposed to our in-house guy.

Also, what of the controller issue? Does anyone have experience with StageConsole? Does it hold up well? Is there another program I should be looking at?

 

[gafftaper]

There are two important things to consider in hanging that bar.

1) Who is liable if it fails? We recently installed a hanging subwoofer in my space. I have the knowledge to get the right gear and hang it. However we paid someone else a pretty significant chunk of change to do it so that we don't have the liability if it fails.

2) Your carpenter may be able to knock out cabins with the best of them, but what does he know about weight distribution on a pipe? Does he know what hardware to use to do this properly? True you could buy some stuff at Home Depot, have him hang it, and it might be safe for years. But it might fail and KILL someone next week. How do you KNOW that those pipes are going to be safe? You hire a rigger. Any time something is lifted overhead we get very serious around here. I don't take any risks when it comes to overhead lifting and I encourage you to do the same.

Beyond that it's very hard to give you any advice that you should trust from an anonymous source like the internet. How do you know I'm not a 13 year old boy in china who has never seen the inside of a theater? I don't know you. You don't know me. I've never seen the space. There are just far too many variables to trust something so potentially dangerous to advice from the internet.

 

[jgaffney7643]

That's justification enough for me. Thanks for your reply.