Opinions on Chinese Knockoffs

[EBB]

So I have seen quite a bit of chinese knock off fixtures from random places like DJ's and churches. And it's been mostly just LED fixtures or lamps. But recently I worked a festival that had a decent amount of nice gear like Mac 2k's and Thomas blinders, etc. But then they pulled out these knockoff versatubes and LED pars. And after a while I noticed it was more and more knockoffs like Mac 250 knockoffs and supposedly had alooot of chinese shackles.

So to get to the point, what is your opinion on knockoffs vs the leading companies? At what point does it become a problem/liability/insult on the industry? If you're a professional production company putting up large tent stages for thousands of people, do you think it's time to start upgrading to the name brand gear or do you think it's acceptable to use that equipment full time?

And as for the things like the shackles and spansets, what are your views? I'm not a rigger, so I don't understand the math and whatnot to how all of that works. But is there a difference in those versus the ones that are normally used?

 

[chausman]

The biggest concern (that I've seen) is reliability. The knockoffs may work, but for how long?


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[gafftaper]

First off there are two different issues. There are knockoffs which attempt to sell you something that looks and acts just like the real product but it has significantly lower quality. These are sometimes even marketed as the same product but at unbelievable discount prices. Sometimes these products are reverse engineered to create the original look without the same quality. These are shady, should be illegal, but are difficult to track and stop. The most notorious knockoffs in our industry are actually not from China but from good old Behringer. Behringer has, on multiple occasions, been sued over steeling other manufacturers products. Do some research on the Boss guitar pedal law suite more info. If I remember right there was a mixer (possibly Mackie) that they even copied the spelling errors in the manual. Is that ethical? Personally I will not buy Behringer products because of this proven business practice.

On the other hand there are OEM products. These are products made in the same factory, by the same employees, with supposedly the same parts, as the major manufacturer. Neo-neon is the most famous of these companies around here. There are still some ethical questions with these products. A major manufacturer designs a product and pays for the production line to create that product, is it ethical for that OEM manufacturer to continue to produce more of the same product and sell them for less than the manufacturer? Is it ethical for you to buy such a product knowing the major manufacturer is investing all the money and the OEM is just making the money off them?

If you have no problem with the ethics of buying a knockoff or OEM product there is still another issue. Who supports it if/when it breaks? This is the real issue to me. Although you paid half price, for your Chinese mover, you still paid several thousand bucks for it. So what do you do when it breaks. Where do you go for service? Where will you get parts for it in 5 years? Sometimes you can buy them through a reputable American dealer who will stand behind the product. Sometimes you are buying from a guy in an apartment on Ebay who you will never hear from again.

Finally note there is a third type of product out there from China. This gear is made to design specifications created by someone here or there. This gear can be pretty good depending on the build quality, asked for by the designer. There probably hasn't been anyone ripped off in the process of creating it either. The question with these sorts of products is again will someone back them up in 5 years if you need parts.

 

[len]

They're treated as disposable fixtures. I have a lot of those LED Pars, and when they go, they go. Because they're so cheap, it's not a big deal. The problems come when

a) you can't replace one or two because that product is no longer available, and that is especially true with any LED based product. Technology is moving so fast that nothing sticks around very long and

b) show failures. So far, not a problem for me because I'm using pretty simple stuff. But moving lights have far more moving parts, more logic boards, etc. I'm sure there are companies that are using the knock offs, and they have no issues with them. The problem comes when someone specs Vari or Martin and they send knockoffs and don't tell the customer. But those are the same companies that have, and continue to, send out bad orders (i.e., the wrong types of fixtures specified, incomplete orders, non-working fixtures, etc.) to shows and their reputation suffers because of it. And these people will send HES or Martin, etc., just very poorly maintained. Personally, I'd rather have 100% working knock-offs than 40% working Martins, 20% non-working, and 40% never showed up in the first place.

 

[Chris15]

I have a friend who audits fire extinguisher manufacturing facilities in China (and Australia, and...)
He is of the opinion that the Chinese tend to be reasonably honest in that they will say this is the price. Customer wants price cheaper. Businessman turns around and says that's fine, where would you like me to cut the corners? Cheaper grade metal for instance.

So when you start talking about safety critical compenents (ie. anything rigging amongst others) I see there being 2 things that matter;
No 1 is the manufacturer's quality control - what is the reasonable likelihood of this week's batch meeting the same specifications as last week's and what's in place to stop something that's not up to scratch getting out?
No 2 is I'd want independent lab certifications for things like breaking strength and thus derived SWL. Things like UL, NATA, etc.

Ultimately with rigging etc. it will boil down to liability. Were you reasonable in your selection of equipment is soemthing a court is likely to consider. If you knowingly skimped on safety for a few quid, then your chances of being found negligent increase rapidly...

 

[gafftaper]

Oh forgot to comment on the rigging part. If your shackle is rated at 500lbs and it fails at 200lbs and someone dies. Who is responsible? If the shackle is made by an American manufacturer it will have stamped into the metal the name of the company. Who gets sued? They do. If the shackle only says China. Who gets sued? YOU do.

For your legal safety, you should only buy rigging hardware with the name of the manufacturer and the load rating stamped on it.

 

[JD]

Problem is, the Chinese are getting better and better. Outside of the infringement issue (which is pretty huge), they have plowed through a lot of other industries. Used to be China-co = junk. That is changing in this field like every other. Not sure this is a good thing.....

 

[DrPinto]

I have a friend who audits fire extinguisher manufacturing facilities in China (and Australia, and...)

A Chinese fire extinguisher? Yikes! From my experience with Chinese quality, I wouldn't even consider it.

I've just had far too many bad experiences with poor quality Chinese products.

 

[Nelson]

Too bad to hear about Behringer. I (used to) buy from them once in a while.

To answer the question, I avoid Chinese knockoffs. If I can't afford to pay full price for the brand name, I buy used brand-name equipment.

 

[gafftaper]

Too bad to hear about Behringer. I (used to) buy from them once in a while.

It goes back a long time and it seems to be a pretty consistent business strategy for Behringer. Mackie sued them back in like 2002 or 2003. Roland/Boss Pedals sued them in 2005 I think.

After Mackie released the Onyx line, Behringer released the Xynix line.

This year, Behringer have introduced a huge new range of mixers called XENYX, which feature "The new XENYX Mic Preamp", digital i/o (USB) and "neo-classic British EQ". I'm sure there's no connection with Mackie's range of mixers called ONYX, which feature "our new flagship Onyx mic preamps", digital i/o (Firewire) and "a 'neo classic' 3- and 4-band design based on classic "British EQ" circuitry".

Full article here.

 

[Chris15]

A Chinese fire extinguisher?

Where exactly do you think most of the world's supply is being manufactured?

 

[chausman]

Where exactly do you think most of the world's supply is being manufactured?

Vari*lite is USA Made.


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[Chris15]

Vari*lite have started manufacturing fire extinguishers now?
An interesting development...

 

[chausman]

Vari*lite have started manufacturing fire extinguishers now?
An interesting development...

Oh...didn't read that carefully enough. I thought you meant fixtures.


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[sk8rsdad]

Vari*lite is USA Made.


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But many of the components are likely coming from abroad. There's really very little that can claim it is entirely made domestically. Somewhere in the process is bound to be some foreign content. Take, for example, your iPad...

 

[David Ashton]

The title of this thread is so biased, the Chinese make the whole range of gear from the cheap and nasty through to the world leading high tech, in my youth, "made in Japan" was a dire insult, the stuff was rubbish, how things change, China produces more graduates and more patents than the US, they are not stupid, and like Japan they will copy, then improve, then innovate, so yes I use Chinese gear and you get what you pay for, but I still pay much less for good quality gear from China, and the service tends to be amazing, recently I asked for some quotes at 9pm and had them by 11pm, both in the same timezone, whereas many US companies don't deal with overseas customers.

 

[chausman]

The title of this thread is so biased,

How is it biased? It doesn't say all Chinese products are knockoffs, the OP was asking about them specifically.


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[cpf]

I think the age of "made in china" stigma has come and gone. You can find cheap US-made stuff, and you can find cheap Chinese-made stuff. My Nikon DSLR is made in China (I think) and the Honda I drive was made in Ontario (well, final assembly), and neither of them are "cheap."

 

[bishopthomas]

I have several flavors of Chinese LED's and one console (still planning on doing a write up on that). They have been every bit as good quality as a "US" company, better in some cases. I have had nothing but problems with my Elation Platinum Spot 5R's. I'm ready to unload them and go all Chinese movers. That way if/when one breaks I will shelf it and use it for parts, or just throw it away. At less than $300 for a MAC250 clone who cares?

I have absolutely no ethical dilemma with buying Chinese products, even the blatant rip offs. I would love to support Avolites, but at no point have I ever considered spending $12,000 on a console. I would probably buy a Chamsys wing for MagicQ and be perfectly happy with that. Avo is not losing my business, the guy selling a used MaxiWing or Hog 1000 is.

 

[Les]

But many of the components are likely coming from abroad. There's really very little that can claim it is entirely made domestically. Somewhere in the process is bound to be some foreign content. Take, for example, your iPad...

Good point. I'll bet these Martins and Vari*Lites have stepper motors made in either China or Japan. I have some good quality EDI stations. Designed and built in the USA. Guess where the potentiometers came from? I find that many products we use today utilize "global" parts, whether they were assembled here or not.