Opinions on Chinese Knockoffs
- Thread starterEBB
- Start date
shiben
Well-Known Member
And yet your average American could not tell you where their car did final assembly, much less where it got made.
I guess my opinion on it is thus: China is at a stage where they copy a lot and innovate less. However, they will move, as the Chinese people become more educated and skilled, move into the innovation section of things. At this point, we will no longer be having this discussion because A, none of us will be able to afford a home computer and B, the new "Vari*Lite" product will be by some shop in China. It will happen sooner than later, as more and more Chinese workers get educated in America and take home ethics from here. At some point, it will just tip. At this point, I think there are Chinese LEDs and CHINESE LEDs. One being a knockoff of something else, and the other being a pretty darn good product for 100 bucks. And thats what I like to see. A good product, not the best, not perfect, but a decent quality product, and for 100 bucks, which is a slight less than something by Elation Pro which is expensive and a slight more than American DJ who seems not to be able to figure out that RGB LED products need to be able to blend colors... Also, I used some Blizzard Pucks the other day on a show, and holy crap were they nice. Very bright, they had been on a tour for a couple of months and worked great, and really quite nice colors. Are those Chinese? Probably. Are they bloody brilliant? Yes they are.
Amishplumber
Active Member
As far as lighting products go, I consider the trade off to be 80% of the product for 50% of the price. I then decide on a case by case basis if thats worth the trade off.
As far as rigging goes, I was once taught to de-rate all chinese made products 10% and use them as such. Many people argue back and forth about using chinese rigging products and I think the 10% rule is a reasonable middle ground.
As far as rigging goes, I was once taught to de-rate all chinese made products 10% and use them as such. Many people argue back and forth about using chinese rigging products and I think the 10% rule is a reasonable middle ground.
Yeah then your truss will only kill 90% as many people when it comes crashing down right?
If you are using unrated hardware you have no business in rigging, there are no compromises on rigging when your only argument is that you can save a few bucks on shackles.
This rule doesn't actually address the issue at hand. One should, under all circumstances, only use rigging products that have been stamped by the manufacturer. If you don't do this and one fails, that liability is completely on your head and you have no manufacturer to pass it off to. While this will probably change down the road, at the moment Chinese manufacturers of rigging supplies do not stamp the product so it is way too high of a risk for any rigger to use them if they value their ability to not get their asses sued off in the event of an accident. I honestly think that 99.9999999% of chinese made rigging products are probably about as high quality as their domestic brethren but that doesn't change the fact that this isn't actually an issue about whether or not they will fail but rather one of what will happen to me if one does.
Amishplumber
Active Member
To clarify, I'm only talking about rated rigging products that have a Chinese origin. Obviously unrated products have no place in rigging. The situation the 10% rule is applicable to is if you have (for instance) two shackles in your hand; both have the same stamped weight rating but one was made in the USA and the other was made in China. I would derate the Chinese one by 10% (to 90% of its rating).
Also to relieve all the members of the interwebs, I do no rigging myself as of yet. I am still learning and do not yet consider myself well versed enough to rig things myself. This 10% rule has never been applied in any real world situation by me as of yet. I welcome any and all reactions to it. I do, however, know an experienced rigger who uses this rule day in and day out.
Also to relieve all the members of the interwebs, I do no rigging myself as of yet. I am still learning and do not yet consider myself well versed enough to rig things myself. This 10% rule has never been applied in any real world situation by me as of yet. I welcome any and all reactions to it. I do, however, know an experienced rigger who uses this rule day in and day out.
Last edited:
Esoteric
Well-Known Member
This is the only type we sell. I sell units by several different companies that are "Chinese" but use either licensed OEM parts or custom designed units.
They are on the level of Elation I would say. They are not ETC, Selecon, or Vari-Lite by any means, but for the price they are excellent quality. Probably the best value around.
Esoteric
Well-Known Member
Actually, you will often get sued either way. Now, what the court finds could very well be different. But in these cases it is often a "round them all up and sort them out later" mentality.
Also, keep in mind that just because something is stamped doesn't mean you are automatically not liable.
Last edited:
I'm really liking the posts back on all of this. Your views are actually putting my mind into more perspective on both the rigging and the lighting portions
So to add a little to it, what are your thoughts on a company- say Martin, who produces the 101's at say 3k a piece(I don't know the actual price. I'm just listing a number) and a chinese(or american) knockoff that made the fixture in the same factory as the original has sold them to a second company who sells them at say $1000 a piece. You know that there is no need for something like an LED fixture that can pan and tilt to be thousands of dollars, but you still feel like you should support the company. Where do you think your views lie there where a big name company is charging big bucks for small products? Do your views on ethics still hold strong if you are a long running buyer and user of the said company's gear?
So to add a little to it, what are your thoughts on a company- say Martin, who produces the 101's at say 3k a piece(I don't know the actual price. I'm just listing a number) and a chinese(or american) knockoff that made the fixture in the same factory as the original has sold them to a second company who sells them at say $1000 a piece. You know that there is no need for something like an LED fixture that can pan and tilt to be thousands of dollars, but you still feel like you should support the company. Where do you think your views lie there where a big name company is charging big bucks for small products? Do your views on ethics still hold strong if you are a long running buyer and user of the said company's gear?
Esoteric
Well-Known Member
lightingguy1
Active Member
This "dilemma" may be best answered in a quote from one of the comments to the article on Behringer cited above:
Yes, the components in a Martin MAC 101 cost significantly less than $1724, but doesn't Martin have the right to recoup its R&D cost, AND charge enough to make a fair profit?
Let's say everyone buys instead the Mario 101 for $500. Martin goes broke not selling any units and hiring lawyers for patent infringement lawsuits. Then where does innovation come from?
There are many fixtures similar to the Source Four, but arguably, none come close to the original. See also the thread http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/8221-patent-infringment-lawsuit.html , but note that even though the lawsuit was "settled," Lightronics continues to advertise the fixture. In this case the "copy" was of significant less quality at not substantially less price, but ETC was correct in defending its patents (and passing the cost on to the consumer).
A quite lengthy LightNetwork thread from a while ago: http://www.lightnetwork.com/messages.php?msg=29825.1&high_light=knockoff&smode=1 .
Last edited:
I have a Xenyx as well. I got it on sale down from where Behringer normally sells, and it ended up being a fantastic deal. I've actually used an Onyx, and with the exception of
having Firewire, I like the Xenyx better. Although maybe that's just me.
According to the chief designer at Lightronics, the lawsuit was settled by making their copy so that it could not take an HPL lamp and to make the barrel so that it could not turn. The Source 4 copy that Lightronics sells, was not designed or built by them. They were approached by a Chinese company and asked if they wanted to be the exclusive rep in the US. They were already getting their cheapest line of "Shoebox dimmers" from this Chinese vendor. At the time that I was told this bit of information, the same guy said to me, that he was surprised that amybody purchased their Ellipsoidal, as it was far less quality and not that much less expensive.
Do I think that it is right to sell these instruments? Short answer probably not, but it isn't going to stop me from doing business with Lightronics on their American made products, that are of good build quality, and manufactured in Virginia Beach, VA, with good quality components.
I often purchase Lightronics equipment off of ebay that is non-operative. They have been absolutely fantastic at getting me parts and service. Would I purchase their bottom line products that are made in China? I don't think that I would, but tomorrow at LDI, I plan on checking out their new LED line of instruments.
Tom Johnson
I completely agree with Derek on this one.
If I ever run across a knock off fixture, I refuse to use it.
Using knock off fixtures destroys the profitability of designing new features into any fixtures.
If you spend a million dollars designing a fixture, and a factory in China builds an exact copy of it, what is the point in innovating in the first place?
I feel very strongly about this issue, and would question the ethics of anyone who feels it is acceptable to use a copy of any fixture.
(To be honest, I feel a bit less strongly about conventional fixtures, as long as they don't infringe on patents)
As a designer, I would equate it to someone taking your design, (and show disk) and using it on several shows without paying you.
If I ever run across a knock off fixture, I refuse to use it.
Using knock off fixtures destroys the profitability of designing new features into any fixtures.
If you spend a million dollars designing a fixture, and a factory in China builds an exact copy of it, what is the point in innovating in the first place?
I feel very strongly about this issue, and would question the ethics of anyone who feels it is acceptable to use a copy of any fixture.
(To be honest, I feel a bit less strongly about conventional fixtures, as long as they don't infringe on patents)
As a designer, I would equate it to someone taking your design, (and show disk) and using it on several shows without paying you.
David Ashton
Well-Known Member
Do you know if they copied anything for the old Eurodesk boards? Those actually worked fairly well. (MX______ line.)
A couple more thoughts on Chinese Rigging Hardware:
-Who rated that Chinese Shackle? How do you know it was actually tested? Who tested it? How was it tested? How do you know someone didn't pick it up and say, "This looks thick enough to hold 1000lbs". If the manufacturer won't put their name on it, all you know for sure is someone stamped a number on the side.
-Chinese manufactures are notorious for dumping random crap in their products as filler once the inspectors leave. T There were 1.5 million Thomas the Tank Engine toys with lead paint, jewelry for little girls made with cadmium, and of course there was the Milk with Melamine in it. I could go on. The package may say the rigging hardware is made of steel, but given the track record of manufacturers how do you know what's in there?
-Let's say you buy a 100lb "rated" Chinese shackle. You decide, I'll devalue it 10% and only consider it safe for 90lbs. It fails when you put a 40lb load on it. You get sued. You go to court. What's your defense? When the lawyers find out that you knew it wasn't safe to use at the full load so you decided knocking off 10% was a good idea. They are going to DESTROY you and your career. Using any rigging product not stamped by the manufacturer is not worth the risk to your career.
-Note that using a shackle stamped "USA" but with no manufacturer identification is just as bad as using one stamped "China". This isn't all about the country and it isn't about the load rating stamped in it. It's about having proof of who made it and stands behind that rating.
-Being a good rigger is all about understanding the risks and designing a safe way to manage the risks. You can't do that if you don't know the exact load rating of your gear.
-Who rated that Chinese Shackle? How do you know it was actually tested? Who tested it? How was it tested? How do you know someone didn't pick it up and say, "This looks thick enough to hold 1000lbs". If the manufacturer won't put their name on it, all you know for sure is someone stamped a number on the side.
-Chinese manufactures are notorious for dumping random crap in their products as filler once the inspectors leave. T There were 1.5 million Thomas the Tank Engine toys with lead paint, jewelry for little girls made with cadmium, and of course there was the Milk with Melamine in it. I could go on. The package may say the rigging hardware is made of steel, but given the track record of manufacturers how do you know what's in there?
-Let's say you buy a 100lb "rated" Chinese shackle. You decide, I'll devalue it 10% and only consider it safe for 90lbs. It fails when you put a 40lb load on it. You get sued. You go to court. What's your defense? When the lawyers find out that you knew it wasn't safe to use at the full load so you decided knocking off 10% was a good idea. They are going to DESTROY you and your career. Using any rigging product not stamped by the manufacturer is not worth the risk to your career.
-Note that using a shackle stamped "USA" but with no manufacturer identification is just as bad as using one stamped "China". This isn't all about the country and it isn't about the load rating stamped in it. It's about having proof of who made it and stands behind that rating.
-Being a good rigger is all about understanding the risks and designing a safe way to manage the risks. You can't do that if you don't know the exact load rating of your gear.
Last edited:
