Opinions on Chinese Knockoffs

[Esoteric]

I completely agree with Derek on this one.
If I ever run across a knock off fixture, I refuse to use it.
Using knock off fixtures destroys the profitability of designing new features into any fixtures.
If you spend a million dollars designing a fixture, and a factory in China builds an exact copy of it, what is the point in innovating in the first place?
I feel very strongly about this issue, and would question the ethics of anyone who feels it is acceptable to use a copy of any fixture.
(To be honest, I feel a bit less strongly about conventional fixtures, as long as they don't infringe on patents)
As a designer, I would equate it to someone taking your design, (and show disk) and using it on several shows without paying you.

But this is the heart of a capitalist system. If you innovate something, then someone is going to come behind you and copy it. That is the way of things. There is nothing immoral or illegal about this. In fact this is good for a market economy, because it actually pushes innovation (to get back on top you have to constantly keep innovating) and it drives competition which is the root of a free market economy. Without people following in the steps of innovators, we would still be paying $1000 for a DVD player.

When you make an innovation you get a small window to profit from it exclusively. After that, it is up to you as a company. You want to compete? Either offer more for the money (not saying that some of the bigger companies don't) or lower your prices.

I have no problems with using products that use properly licensed OEM parts, or that OEM their own parts (from the same factories that the big boys use) based on designs and technology (without direct patent infringement) that were innovated by other companies.

It is the capitalist way.

 

[Wood4321]

I disagree completely.
The heart of the capitalist system is innovation, But that innovation is protected!
I don't have an issue with copying the features of a fixture(without violating patents), But once you copy every detail of the fixture, down to the way the point that the knockoffs often will work with the original's profile in a desk, Then you are STEALING!

Look at the current Apple/Samsung lawsuits. One of the main items Apple is asserting against Samsung is "Trade Dress Infringement" This means that Apple is suing samsung for copying the look and feel of its devices.
There are even several areas in the world that have banned the sale of the offending devices.
"Trade Dress Infringement" is big deal in todays society.

What would you do, if I went into a church christmas pageant you designed, stole your lightplot and show disk, and started selling it to other churches for half the price you charged?

Would that be acceptable?
How about the knock off Avo lighting desks that ask you to download software from AVO?
At what point do you believe it isn't ok? Or is outright theft of intellectual property always ok?

I have no problem with chinese manufacturers building their own fixtures. BUT, they need to actually build their own fixtures without copying someone else.

Look at the Mac 101 and the GLP volkslicht, Both similar fixtures, but nobody, (Myself included) is accusing either of them of copying...

 

[Esoteric]

I am not supporting copyright or patent infringement. But you cannot keep a company from making a product simply because it is similar to the one you make. Look at AMD and Intel. The processors are VERY similar (even on an architectural level), but no one is accusing AMD of theft of IP. Any number of car manufacturers. This stuff happens all the time in the clothing industry. Someone innovates a "look" and 3 months later every discount retailer has that same "look" on their store shelves.

No one is advocating theft of IP. We should all refuse to buy products that are outright thefts.

But you can't design the MAC 101 and then claim that anything resembling the unit or that has the same DMX channel layout is a "knock off" and should not be on the market. If I can design my own unit, without infringing on your IP, and I can sell mine for $1000 less, but it happens to resemble yours or contain some of the same parts you use (legally licensed and obtained), then I deserve to be able to go to market with it.

That would stifle competition and competition is the basis of the free market (I assert this because competition drives innovation not the other way around, if there were no competition there is no need for innovation, on the other hand making an innovation does not necessarily bring about competition, in addition competition is the force behind pricing which is how we judge markets, therefor competition is the basis of the free market).

 

[Wood4321]

In my opinion,
Processors are Not a good example in my opinion, while they may look similar,
They are very different, If they could be used in each others motherboards, you may have a case.
But with processors, you need to have a specific chipset, and socket to make the processor work.
I would equate this with my DMX Profile comment, Since these items don't work with each others parts, I would equate them to be ok.
Since one is not copying the other.

Here are a few items for you to peruse,
Are they acceptable to you?
Mac 2k

Avo Pearl

Once again, I am not talking about similar fixtures, I am talking about complete copies.
These are the fixtures and desks I take issue with.

That being said, I would be very unlikely to use any fixture without the appropriate approvals.
UL, CE, Etc, etc...
Many of the less reputable Chinese manufacturers will state that their equipment is listed, when it really is not.
I would ask for documentation before purchasing, as I wouldn't want to be responsible one of those fixtures bursting into flame over a crowded house.
Now, if a fixture is manufactured in china for a reputable manufacturer, I have no problem with their products. Elation has some very nice Chinese made fixtures, and you can even get parts...

 

[Esoteric]

In my opinion,
Processors are Not a good example in my opinion, while they may look similar,
They are very different, If they could be used in each others motherboards, you may have a case.
But with processors, you need to have a specific chipset, and socket to make the processor work.
I would equate this with my DMX Profile comment, Since these items don't work with each others parts, I would equate them to be ok.
Since one is not copying the other.

Here are a few items for you to peruse,
Are they acceptable to you?
Mac 2k

Avo Pearl

Once again, I am not talking about similar fixtures, I am talking about complete copies.
These are the fixtures and desks I take issue with.

That being said, I would be very unlikely to use any fixture without the appropriate approvals.
UL, CE, Etc, etc...
Many of the less reputable Chinese manufacturers will state that their equipment is listed, when it really is not.
I would ask for documentation before purchasing, as I wouldn't want to be responsible one of those fixtures bursting into flame over a crowded house.
Now, if a fixture is manufactured in china for a reputable manufacturer, I have no problem with their products. Elation has some very nice Chinese made fixtures, and you can even get parts...

I can't tell enough from just that page.

But I would not buy that instrument.

I think we are on the same page.

Keep in mind that UL listing also does not keep you from being sued.

Mike

 

[mstaylor]

I agree with not using knockoffs and unrated rigging equipment. I have a China produced cable restraint, think Crosby. The reason I have it is because it failed at fifty feet in the air and what it was holding **** near hit me when it fell. Turns out there was a combination of Ameican made and China made hardware. Many of the non American hardware was close to failure and my suggestion to the venue was get rid of all of it. It was installed by the stage manufacture and they were made to come back and fix it.
My question as a rigger is what do you do if a show comes in with all nonrated shackles for their show, what to do? I keep some inhouse but not enough to hang a whole rig. The nearest company with that many shackles is an hour away.

 

[DuckJordan]

I agree with not using knockoffs and unrated rigging equipment. I have a China produced cable restraint, think Crosby. The reason I have it is because it failed at fifty feet in the air and what it was holding **** near hit me when it fell. Turns out there was a combination of American made and China made hardware. Many of the non American hardware was close to failure and my suggestion to the venue was get rid of all of it. It was installed by the stage manufacture and they were made to come back and fix it.
My question as a rigger is what do you do if a show comes in with all non rated shackles for their show, what to do? I keep some in house but not enough to hang a whole rig. The nearest company with that many shackles is an hour away.

It all depends on the contract and who gets to be considered liable. If its us the show doesn't go up until the appropriate hardware is met. Its written in the contract for the shows that consider bringing inadequate equipment is a breach of the contract nullifying any payment or production therein.

 

[Wood4321]

I agree, It doesn't keep you from being sued.
But it may limit the damages, or actual liability.
(Plus a listed item is much less likely to cause problems)

 

[gafftaper]

I am not supporting copyright or patent infringement. But you cannot keep a company from making a product simply because it is similar to the one you make. Look at AMD and Intel. The processors are VERY similar (even on an architectural level), but no one is accusing AMD of theft of IP.

While there haven't been any purely IP lawsuits between AMD and Intel they have been regularly suing each other since 1987. So maybe they aren't exactly the best example to use.

 

[Esoteric]

While there haven't been any purely IP lawsuits between AMD and Intel they have been regularly suing each other since 1987. So maybe they aren't exactly the best example to use.

Actually, it is perfect. I have never met an IT professional who says "don't buy AMD because they have been sued by Intel, so they are cheap knock offs."

 

[shiben]

While there haven't been any purely IP lawsuits between AMD and Intel they have been regularly suing each other since 1987. So maybe they aren't exactly the best example to use.

When Martin starts suing whoever makes the Fine2000 in Anti-Trust action this would be relevant. AMD has been suing to try and make intel less dominant not via technology but via less anti-competitive practices. IP issues were an issue once? maybe twice, would have to check again.

 

[shiben]

Actually, it is perfect. I have never met an IT professional who says "don't buy AMD because they have been sued by Intel, so they are cheap knock offs."

A more comparative situation would be the Fine2000 guys suing martin for illegal business practices.

 

[Esoteric]

A more comparative situation would be the Fine2000 guys suing martin for illegal business practices.

Totally. Good point.

 

[BillESC]

As many of you know I bring in a limited Chinese line of LED fixtures. They were developed by the Chinese manufacturer and I had them modify them to my specifications. Warranty isssues have been a smaller percentage than if I were purchasing "name brand" products at three times the price.

Is there junk out there? Yes. Where does it come from? Anywhere. Can top shelf gear come from China? Most certainly.

 

[Esoteric]

As many of you know I bring in a limited Chinese line of LED fixtures. They were developed by the Chinese manufacturer and I had them modify them to my specifications. Warranty isssues have been a smaller percentage than if I were purchasing "name brand" products at three times the price.

Is there junk out there? Yes. Where does it come from? Anywhere. Can top shelf gear come from China? Most certainly.

You know what the worst problem has been with my Chinese gear? Customs. I have had 3 shipments in the last year get caught in Customs (one in China, one in the US, and one by Homeland Security) with 2-3 week waits to get them out.

 

[shiben]

You know what the worst problem has been with my Chinese gear? Customs. I have had 3 shipments in the last year get caught in Customs (one in China, one in the US, and one by Homeland Security) with 2-3 week waits to get them out.

Gotta love homeland security. Although I feel like I love the TSA more than ICE.

 

[EBB]

I just thought I would let everyone know that at LDI today I found one of the China fixtures and looking at the back end of it- which looked alot like a Tri-Par...But it had two male ends and no female. Hmmmm.... I should have taken a picture of it.

Also, side note to the day, the Chamsys MQ 60 prototype. You all should check it out if you're there. it's on the church worship stage.

 

[bishopthomas]

Also, side note to the day, the Chamsys MQ 60 prototype. You all should check it out if you're there. it's on the church worship stage.

That looks cool but I think I'll wait for the Chinese knockoff.