Pull this

[Peter McCumber]

Well, thanks for admitting many don't work because they are not well designed and/or maintained. Yes, many have been poorly designed. The whole concept of a pipe that falls on a pipe to change the balance, all where it is hard to reach, is simply a little goofy. A system that is never tested - which was generally the case before I changed the Life Safety Code - is also goofy. Many owners are simply afraid of these and don't want them touched. That they have never been tested - the whole system, not just materials - to work in a fire is also a little annoying. The fact that a large percentage don't work is simply a fact. At least motorizing, something I advocated be required, helps reliability. Believe me, I could go on this theme a long time.

But I really want to focus the discussion on the need for them today. When they were invented - to protect the theatre owner's building, not to protect the occupants - there were no fire sprinklers and lighting was open flame. Increasingly no incandescent - but LEDs that don't start fires like the typical quarts unit will against a curtain. And still no clear record of a fire safety curtain ever having mitigated a hazard, as fire sprinklers and the vents on stages have been shown to do.

At the end of the day, if spending money for safety, there are much better places to spend it than a fire safety curtain. And in terms of protecting people, I suspect dumping many thousands of gallons of water is more effective than a piece of cloth (common US practice).

I agree that many of these systems were not maintained. Some due to the fact that there were asbestos curtains involved that we were told not to disturb if possible. At the theatre I currently work for at a state college we replaced our old asbestos curtain about 10 years ago. We used to test it every year and it came in to the deck pretty often but would occasionally not trip correctly. That's one of the reasons we replaced it along with abatement of asbestos. However when we would reset the fire curtain we had to have one of the crew members ride the arbor down to give it the extra weight (and consequently speed) to allow it to catch and hold. One time we pulled that stupid thing out 5 times before it would catch and so we learned it was a lot less work (and yes inherently more dangerous) to over weight the arbor. I did that for 12 years as I was one of the few that was small enough to fit but heavy enough to make a difference. Oh, and the fact that I was okay with climbing out onto the arbor 80 feet in the air and holding on for dear life.

 

[SteveB]

Well, thanks for admitting many don't work because they are not well designed and/or maintained. Yes, many have been poorly designed. The whole concept of a pipe that falls on a pipe to change the balance, all where it is hard to reach, is simply a little goofy. A system that is never tested - which was generally the case before I changed the Life Safety Code - is also goofy. Many owners are simply afraid of these and don't want them touched. That they have never been tested - the whole system, not just materials - to work in a fire is also a little annoying. The fact that a large percentage don't work is simply a fact. At least motorizing, something I advocated be required, helps reliability. Believe me, I could go on this theme a long time.

But I really want to focus the discussion on the need for them today. When they were invented - to protect the theatre owner's building, not to protect the occupants - there were no fire sprinklers and lighting was open flame. Increasingly no incandescent - but LEDs that don't start fires like the typical quarts unit will against a curtain. And still no clear record of a fire safety curtain ever having mitigated a hazard, as fire sprinklers and the vents on stages have been shown to do.

At the end of the day, if spending money for safety, there are much better places to spend it than a fire safety curtain. And in terms of protecting people, I suspect dumping many thousands of gallons of water is more effective than a piece of cloth (common US practice).

Bill, your points are well taken. My problem is in a space that HAD a functional fire curtain, OR has space for one, it might be a better option if only due to the fact that an accidentaly tripped fire curtain doesn't usually do a couple of hundred thousands worth of damage, while a deluge does. So certainly easier on the construction budget, but possibly a major cost down the road.

I'd be curious as to the status of the deluge at the Gershwin, Minskoff and other NYC spaces that have not had accidental trips, so far as I know and the Kingsborough incident I mentioned was easily 25 years ago with no issues since. I suspect that deluge systems are merely a legacy fear of stagehands as we really don't want to be out of work while a new floor and dimmer racks get purchased and installed.

I'm also curious though as to your thoughts on installing 2 prominently located manual trip switches. Would you spec. that ?. That to me, seems kind of asking for trouble.

I'll be in touch with ARUP tomorrow, in any event.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

For Peter M, just imagine the success rate of your annual test if it had been a fire with very high pressure - like enough to buckle a steel door? See my article on Frankfort opera house fire for pictures. Just pull the bottom batten into stage with all your might and see if it closes then.

Steve - not disagreeing but isn't there something wrong with the logic of spending more for less safety because it will do less damage? And incidentally more than a few reports of injuries to people from fire curtains and none from deluge. It's discouraging in this era if fake nes but facts and truth are hard to find and too rarely sought.

If you're asking Arup about their study, ask what happens when there is no fire curtain. They never ran that model. I think the study is flawed in the origin of the fire is on the floor and you only have to study a little to see overwhelmingly stage fires start at the lights and rises above.

 

[techieman33]

or have vents and fans well after carbon arc?

I'm totally fine with the vents and fans. Even modern spotlights get hot, and anything that helps keep the room more comfortable is okay in my book.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I'm totally fine with the vents and fans. Even modern spotlights get hot, and anything that helps keep the room more comfortable is okay in my book.

I didn't suggest not having proper ventilation, only that the direct connect is not necessary for safety as it was for carbon arc. Good design and planning will keep it cool and comfortable much more efficiently.

 

[RonHebbard]

I agree that many of these systems were not maintained. Some due to the fact that there were asbestos curtains involved that we were told not to disturb if possible. At the theatre I currently work for at a state college we replaced our old asbestos curtain about 10 years ago. We used to test it every year and it came in to the deck pretty often but would occasionally not trip correctly. That's one of the reasons we replaced it along with abatement of asbestos. However when we would reset the fire curtain we had to have one of the crew members ride the arbor down to give it the extra weight (and consequently speed) to allow it to catch and hold. One time we pulled that stupid thing out 5 times before it would catch and so we learned it was a lot less work (and yes inherently more dangerous) to over weight the arbor. I did that for 12 years as I was one of the few that was small enough to fit but heavy enough to make a difference. Oh, and the fact that I was okay with climbing out onto the arbor 80 feet in the air and holding on for dear life.

@Peter McCumber @BillConnerFASTC @SteveB @techieman33 While we're throwing darts at fire curtains, here in Canada I worked in two theaters where it was mandated the fire curtain came in to the deck whenever the theater was not being used. Thus, the fire curtain was manually released and allowed to land nightly and was raised again most mornings for work and rehearsals. As it was ALWAYS being used, we ALWAYS knew it was in working order so far as falling fully in, bouncing slightly, then settling firmly on to the deck per its design. One installation was raised electrically with the other manually.
Comments?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[SteveB]

@Peter McCumber @BillConnerFASTC @SteveB @techieman33 While we're throwing darts at fire curtains, here in Canada I worked in two theaters where it was mandated the fire curtain came in to the deck whenever the theater was not being used. Thus, the fire curtain was manually released and allowed to land nightly and was raised again most mornings for work and rehearsals. As it was ALWAYS being used, we ALWAYS knew it was in working order so far as falling fully in, bouncing slightly, then settling firmly on to the deck per its design. One installation was raised electrically with the other manually.
Comments?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

Our fire curtains in both our proscenium houses were operated this way, in at night, out in the morning. They were motorized as well.

The motor on our larger rental hall curtain has been non operational for about 2-3 years. Probably in violation of a number of local codes, but our college facilities office seems in no hurry to fix. We have had visits by 2 different rigging companies, both told the college to fix and not go the deluge route if possible, even to filing a variance with the NYFD as required. They might well be designing a system to replace the fused link system and have it activated by the grid mounted heat detector as well as connected to the main fire alarm system, plus fixing the motor. I've not been informed.

 

[SteveB]

For Peter M, just imagine the success rate of your annual test if it had been a fire with very high pressure - like enough to buckle a steel door? See my article on Frankfort opera house fire for pictures. Just pull the bottom batten into stage with all your might and see if it closes then.

Steve - not disagreeing but isn't there something wrong with the logic of spending more for less safety because it will do less damage? And incidentally more than a few reports of injuries to people from fire curtains and none from deluge. It's discouraging in this era if fake nes but facts and truth are hard to find and too rarely sought.

If you're asking Arup about their study, ask what happens when there is no fire curtain. They never ran that model. I think the study is flawed in the origin of the fire is on the floor and you only have to study a little to see overwhelmingly stage fires start at the lights and rises above.

I'm not questing the need for grid mounted sprinklers, as that obviously helps stop a fire in the fly tower. It's the deluge and the accidental trigger that seems to be an issue. I've seen the ESTA report on stage fires and detector and sprinkler location. I don't think anybody has ever done any modeling on deluge vs. hard curtain. I have always felt that the deluge solution was appropriate for spaces that lacked requisite height for a curtain, especially when the theater is inside a high rise office building, but questioned the requirement when that fly space was available, such as our renovated space. As noted in the 2007 posts, a theater being renovated in the Broadway NYC theater district was able to get a variance and uses a fire curtain, that pre-existed and I would suspect renovated.

 

[techieman33]

@Peter McCumber @BillConnerFASTC @SteveB @techieman33 While we're throwing darts at fire curtains, here in Canada I worked in two theaters where it was mandated the fire curtain came in to the deck whenever the theater was not being used. Thus, the fire curtain was manually released and allowed to land nightly and was raised again most mornings for work and rehearsals. As it was ALWAYS being used, we ALWAYS knew it was in working order so far as falling fully in, bouncing slightly, then settling firmly on to the deck per its design. One installation was raised electrically with the other manually.
Comments?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

Ours used to be lowered by motor nightly, but that practice was abandoned years ago. Now it's lowered for testing, and when it's serving it's secondary purpose as the sound shell. Reading about manually raising them makes me cringe. I haven't had to do it but was told that the one time ours had to be raised by hand it took over an hour to crank it back up. And that was with multiple people swapping out as they got winded.

 

[Footer]

I had forgotten the Gershwin story, but recall when the NYC codes changed to allow theaters to be installed inside office towers. Powered venting systems, deluge, etc.. were all some of the "innovative" solutions.

I've been aware of 3 theaters (now 5) with accidents, the Joyce Theater in NYC happened twice, Kimmel Center in Philadelphia and Kingsborough Community College in Brooklyn, NY.

FWIW, we had a similar conversation 10 years ago..

https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/deluge-fire-safety-systems.6158/

Your sister school up in the Bronx has had their's go off at least twice. They got a new maso stagefloor out of it last time. Hudson scenic installed it. Very nice. Time before that I believe they wiped out a new yamaha 9'.

 

[SteveB]

Your sister school up in the Bronx has had their's go off at least twice. They got a new maso stagefloor out of it last time. Hudson scenic installed it. Very nice. Time before that I believe they wiped out a new yamaha 9'.

Lehman ?, Hostos ?.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I'm not questing the need for grid mounted sprinklers, as that obviously helps stop a fire in the fly tower. It's the deluge and the accidental trigger that seems to be an issue. I've seen the ESTA report on stage fires and detector and sprinkler location. I don't think anybody has ever done any modeling on deluge vs. hard curtain. I have always felt that the deluge solution was appropriate for spaces that lacked requisite height for a curtain, especially when the theater is inside a high rise office building, but questioned the requirement when that fly space was available, such as our renovated space. As noted in the 2007 posts, a theater being renovated in the Broadway NYC theater district was able to get a variance and uses a fire curtain, that pre-existed and I would suspect renovated.

You should not be debating curtain vs deluge but whether either is really necessary.

And BTW the national codes allow a third option of all mechanical smoke management. Has not been used yet to my knowledge but an option with no hard curtain and no water.

 

[Footer]

Lehman ?, Hostos ?.

Hostos.

 

[Protech]

I agree that many of these systems were not maintained. Some due to the fact that there were asbestos curtains involved that we were told not to disturb if possible. At the theatre I currently work for at a state college we replaced our old asbestos curtain about 10 years ago. We used to test it every year and it came in to the deck pretty often but would occasionally not trip correctly. That's one of the reasons we replaced it along with abatement of asbestos. However when we would reset the fire curtain we had to have one of the crew members ride the arbor down to give it the extra weight (and consequently speed) to allow it to catch and hold. One time we pulled that stupid thing out 5 times before it would catch and so we learned it was a lot less work (and yes inherently more dangerous) to over weight the arbor. I did that for 12 years as I was one of the few that was small enough to fit but heavy enough to make a difference. Oh, and the fact that I was okay with climbing out onto the arbor 80 feet in the air and holding on for dear life.

Reading these kinds of posts make the hair on my neck stand up... Please guys, if your rigging system isn't operating properly, call someone who will come make it right. Start with the original rigging contractor and if they cannot help or are no longer around, reach out to one of us either on the ETCP list or here on CB!

 

[JohnD]

Reading these kinds of posts make the hair on my neck stand up... Please guys, if your rigging system isn't operating properly, call someone who will come make it right. Start with the original rigging contractor and if they cannot help or are no longer around, reach out to one of us either on the ETCP list or here on CB!

Very valid opinion but I think here it is mostly a case of preaching to the choir.

 

[teqniqal]

what was last time anyone heard of a stage fire in the US .

Well, one event I can recall was at University of North Texas in the Main Auditorium (circa ~1999-2001?). The auditorium had just been renovated a few years earlier and had proper functioning smoke vents and fire curtain. About 2:00 in the morning a fire broke-out on the stage and the protective systems reacted and deployed as designed. It starved the fire of fresh air, vented the toxic smoke, and prevented substantial smoke and fire damage to the remainder of the building and audience chamber. The building is a multi-story office / classroom layout that surround the central auditorium on three sides, so if the fire had spread outside of the stage house it would have consumed the whole building. Some equipment on stage and the stage floor had to be replaced, but the historical building was spared. The fire began at stage level, not up in the fly space.

I think that saying we don't need fire curtains because many of them are disfunctional is not logical. We need to be getting disfunctional fire curtains rebuilt to be compliant with the current NFPA 80 Standard for Fire Doors and Opening Protectives. Fire Curtains, Fire Doors, Air Duct Shutters, and Smoke Vents must work together as a SYSTEM in order to be effective. Additionally, users need to start utilizing fire retardant treated materials (or non-combustible materials) to build sets. The requirement has been in the Fire Codes for over 100 years now, and few seem to recognize it. I routinely see TONS (literally!) of non-treated cardboard, wood, combustible foam, fabric, and high VOC content paints on every stage I visit. This is a disaster just waiting to happen.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Well, one event I can recall was at University of North Texas in the Main Auditorium (circa ~1999-2001?). The auditorium had just been renovated a few years earlier and had proper functioning smoke vents and fire curtain. About 2:00 in the morning a fire broke-out on the stage and the protective systems reacted and deployed as designed. It starved the fire of fresh air, vented the toxic smoke, and prevented substantial smoke and fire damage to the remainder of the building and audience chamber. The building is a multi-story office / classroom layout that surround the central auditorium on three sides, so if the fire had spread outside of the stage house it would have consumed the whole building. Some equipment on stage and the stage floor had to be replaced, but the historical building was spared. The fire began at stage level, not up in the fly space.

I think that saying we don't need fire curtains because many of them are disfunctional is not logical. We need to be getting disfunctional fire curtains rebuilt to be compliant with the current NFPA 80 Standard for Fire Doors and Opening Protectives. Fire Curtains, Fire Doors, Air Duct Shutters, and Smoke Vents must work together as a SYSTEM in order to be effective. Additionally, users need to start utilizing fire retardant treated materials (or non-combustible materials) to build sets. The requirement has been in the Fire Codes for over 100 years now, and few seem to recognize it. I routinely see TONS (literally!) of non-treated cardboard, wood, combustible foam, fabric, and high VOC content paints on every stage I visit. This is a disaster just waiting to happen.

Still not one where the fire curtain has protected an occupant of the auditorium. And all the fire protection engineers I've met dismiss the idea you can starve a structure fire of fresh air. And if you did, how could it vent? And what about the fires where the curtain didn't work and the vents did and there was also no damage or spread of smoke, because the vents and sprinklers did the job? And what was the role of the fire sprinklers at the University of North Texas? And what was the ignition? Was that the one with workers refinishing wood and spontaneous combustion? I get it confused with one at the University of Dayton.

I have suggested that for property protection, especially historic structures, a fire safety curtain or other fire door (you can get rolling fire doors to almost any width and those are tested and engineered much more thoroughly than any fire safety curtain ever has been) might be appropriate. But still no record of a fire curtain protecting occupants. (Just a guess - but might be because of stage hands. In these scenarios, where you really don't know what is going to happen, people react faster and better than machines. I've dealt with three fire incidents on stages. Love those mop buckets for putting out fires.)

I agree with you that based on what I see, it seems like disasters waiting to happen but, but since the common use of the electric light bulb, they don't seem to have. In fact, I wish like the 1850s to very early 1900s, when the average life of a theatre before being destroyed by fire was 5 years, we did loose a few. More work for me and more opportunity to improve theatre design. Of course the use of pyro may make up for the lost of open arc and open flame illumination. And do you really think the combustibles on stage are greater than a big box store, with its' stacks of paint, wood, foam, etc., often more occupants, less communication, and just fire sprinklers? And survey high school and college stages during a "big show" as I have, and calculate the pounds of combustibles per square foot. Its not very much.

We have many records of people being seriously injured when falling off a stage, and virtually none form stage fires over the last 100 years, but we persist in spending $50,000+ for a fire curtain and practically nothing to protect people from falls off a stage. Bad regulation that doesn't make sense. Not unlike the stages with working fire curtains and people rolling around an aged A frame ladder.

What is on a stage today is very different than 100+ years ago and yet regulations to a large degree are very little changed. While we should learn from the past, we should also design - and regulate - for today and tomorrow, not for yesterday.

 

[chausman]

And BTW the national codes allow a third option of all mechanical smoke management. Has not been used yet to my knowledge but an option with no hard curtain and no water.

What is that system supposed to look like? Massive ventilation system to suck smoke out of the air?

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

What is that system supposed to look like? Massive ventilation system to suck smoke out of the air?

Yes, like in atriums. The problem is not the suck part but the amount of make up air. Many square feet that open automatically and relaibly. And then trying to make them god acoustic barriers. Challenges.

 

[kiwitechgirl]

The "iron" at the Sydney Opera House still comes in nightly after the show is over and the set is cleared - it also has a "flap" on the bottom of it which drops to the horizontal (makes a hell of a noise - scares the living daylights out of us if we're in the pit and not expecting it!). Although not sure if it's been retained with the renovations currently happening - will find out in December I guess! I've never seen it used in anger and I don't know that it ever has been - I've never heard stories of a fire in the building and we've got orchestra members who have been working there since it was built so I suspect if anything had ever happened, I'd have heard about it.