Pull this

SteveB

Well-Known Member
Saw this today at the SR exit door for our renovated/new Tow Center. They removed the existing FibreTex (or whatever it was called) fire curtain and replaced with a deluge.

Why do I think this might be a problem down the road.
 

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One snagged costume or rogue prop away from an insurance claim that'll earn that theater another renovation. That or an intern who really wants to know what a "Deluge Speaker" sounds like. Would be a good idea to put a flip cover over that like they make for fire alarm pull stations.
 
and here I thought Deluge curtains were Passe'.
 
Eeek. There's a thread on the British version of CB (the Blue Room) where someone pulled the deluge trigger mid interval. Results were much as you would expect.
 
Also, why aren't those just controlled the same way firewalls are? We have a wall that if a pull station is pulled or a smokehead is tripped you have 30 seconds to hit an abort button to stop the wall from falling. You can hit the manual release... but that is a much more involved process. Having a simple fire pull that immediately causes 100k in damage seems a bit much.
 
Saw this today at the SR exit door for our renovated/new Tow Center. They removed the existing FibreTex (or whatever it was called) fire curtain and replaced with a deluge.

Why do I think this might be a problem down the road.

Being a New Yorker, I'm sure Steve Bailey knows this story, but I'll repeat for the enjoyment of all:

The year is 1972. The Uris Theatre (now the Gershwin) on Broadway is nearing completion. It is part of a new office building, and designed by the theatre consultant Ralph Alswang. It featured such awesome innovations as the Hyra-Float hydraulic fly system (completely ripped out shortly after the first production, "Via Galactica" starring Raul Julia) and yes, the first deluge curtain in New York City.

The NYC Fire Marshal shows up for the initial inspection. He has never seen a deluge curtain, and tells Al Manganaro, the house electrician, to demonstrate it. Al says "Are you sure?" "Yes, turn it on!" "Are you really sure?" "Stop wasting my time and turn it on!" "OK."

Whereupon about 10,000 gallons per minute begins to fill the orchestra pit and submerge the seating in the orchestra.

Fire Marshal: "SHUT IT OFF, SHUT IT OFF!!!"

Al: "That may take a few minutes, the shutoff valve is 5 stories up."

Needless to say, "Via Galactica" was delayed for quite a while as much of the orchestra seating was ripped out and replaced.

Gotta love deluge curtains. :)

ST
 
There are a number of deluge systems out there, and the multistage "dry" setups which require a combination of interlocks to activate make me much less nervous than the old school "wet" systems which only require a hand release. I hope yours is the former!

We worked on a project in Las Vegas back in 1994. 2 days before Tom Jones was set for the Grand Opening, with a full orchestra on stage, someone (or "somehow") the deluge system was activated. Results were what you would expect for the most part, with 3 feet of standing water left in the pit.

This not only ruined an orchestra worth of instruments, soft goods, and the stage floor, but the doused main curtain (which was counter-weighted) created a run-away. Safety chains either were not specified or had not yet been installed, and the arbor drove it self through the headblock. :\

A small miracle was pulled off over the next 48 hours to pump water, dry curtains, and repair the counterweight rigging. They made opening night but just barely.

If I was working there I'd certainly exercise caution, and probably put up some signage that the area was under 24 hour surveillance, etc, etc to deter tampering.
 
Deluge systems on stages should have pre-action controls - which allows the ability to abort flow.

Frankly, the concept of separating stage from house should be completely reassessed. We are long past the era of open source lighting - gas and arc without a bulb - and scenery is not what it used to be. Clipped from a paper I presented at ITEAC 2002:

"First, on the venerable Iroquois Theatre, from John R. Freeman we have "On the Safeguarding of Life in Theatres." He tells us there were more than 9,000Kg of combustibles on stage, spread across a stage area of near 1500 SqM and more than 150 linesets. This includes manila rope for all the rigging and wooden battens instead of non-combustible wire rope and steel pipe battens. The oil paints on linen drops and such, all reportedly a product of England and first used in the Savoy, would have covered several acres."

150+ linesets - IIRC somewhere in 160s actually - hung manila soaked in kerosene to preserve it - no flameproofing, no sprinklers, inoperable vents, inoperable fire safety curtain (the usual) - just no resemblance to stages today.

I'd probably suggest that a as condition for no separation that no pyro be allowed. The light bulb virtually eliminated the common ignition source; pyro reintroduced it.
 
I had forgotten the Gershwin story, but recall when the NYC codes changed to allow theaters to be installed inside office towers. Powered venting systems, deluge, etc.. were all some of the "innovative" solutions.

I've been aware of 3 theaters (now 5) with accidents, the Joyce Theater in NYC happened twice, Kimmel Center in Philadelphia and Kingsborough Community College in Brooklyn, NY.

FWIW, we had a similar conversation 10 years ago..

https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/deluge-fire-safety-systems.6158/
 
The linked thread - which was all before I joined CB - is interesting.

I think you have to consider that fire safety curtains are notoriously unreliable. The reports from major rigging companies and individuals - Jay Glerum notably - were that at best 25% of fire curtains actually would close. Sprinkler systems - which a deluge system is - are estimated around 99% reliable last I checked.

So not a simple issue. And besides, what was last time anyone heard of a stage fire in the US - a stage like we usually discuss and not like in a ratty night club and one that might be required to have a fire curtain - injuring anyone? I qualify "in US" because of the lack of sprinklers - often not required - and other protection features normally found in US - like doors that open. The discussion would be different in countries that don't require sprinklers nor enforce basic means of egress, but then why would a fire curtain work there? Which of course brings us to the UK and similar countries where the fire curtain is required - and enforced - to be operated every performance. (Thus, the rarely enforced requirement in US for closing them when not in production.)

There are many more false deluge operations than noted above. I like the Yale Rep, during fire marshal testing, and the pump sucking enough water out that the mains under the streets collapsed. I think a few classes were cancelled that day to carry scenery out to dry in the sun.
 
The linked thread - which was all before I joined CB - is interesting.

I think you have to consider that fire safety curtains are notoriously unreliable. The reports from major rigging companies and individuals - Jay Glerum notably - were that at best 25% of fire curtains actually would close. Sprinkler systems - which a deluge system is - are estimated around 99% reliable last I checked.

So not a simple issue. And besides, what was last time anyone heard of a stage fire in the US - a stage like we usually discuss and not like in a ratty night club and one that might be required to have a fire curtain - injuring anyone? I qualify "in US" because of the lack of sprinklers - often not required - and other protection features normally found in US - like doors that open. The discussion would be different in countries that don't require sprinklers nor enforce basic means of egress, but then why would a fire curtain work there? Which of course brings us to the UK and similar countries where the fire curtain is required - and enforced - to be operated every performance. (Thus, the rarely enforced requirement in US for closing them when not in production.)

There are many more false deluge operations than noted above. I like the Yale Rep, during fire marshal testing, and the pump sucking enough water out that the mains under the streets collapsed. I think a few classes were cancelled that day to carry scenery out to dry in the sun.

I think it could be argued that the primary reason fire curtains fail to close properly is due to inadequate maintenance and/or poor design that gets the closure started - I.E. tied in to the alarm and sensing systems.

When they close as intended that arguably do a better job of keeping fire, smoke and burning scenery out of the audience chamber than a deluge.
 
I think it could be argued that the primary reason fire curtains fail to close properly is due to inadequate maintenance and/or poor design that gets the closure started - I.E. tied in to the alarm and sensing systems.

When they close as intended that arguably do a better job of keeping fire, smoke and burning scenery out of the audience chamber than a deluge.

Well, thanks for admitting many don't work because they are not well designed and/or maintained. Yes, many have been poorly designed. The whole concept of a pipe that falls on a pipe to change the balance, all where it is hard to reach, is simply a little goofy. A system that is never tested - which was generally the case before I changed the Life Safety Code - is also goofy. Many owners are simply afraid of these and don't want them touched. That they have never been tested - the whole system, not just materials - to work in a fire is also a little annoying. The fact that a large percentage don't work is simply a fact. At least motorizing, something I advocated be required, helps reliability. Believe me, I could go on this theme a long time.

But I really want to focus the discussion on the need for them today. When they were invented - to protect the theatre owner's building, not to protect the occupants - there were no fire sprinklers and lighting was open flame. Increasingly no incandescent - but LEDs that don't start fires like the typical quarts unit will against a curtain. And still no clear record of a fire safety curtain ever having mitigated a hazard, as fire sprinklers and the vents on stages have been shown to do.

At the end of the day, if spending money for safety, there are much better places to spend it than a fire safety curtain. And in terms of protecting people, I suspect dumping many thousands of gallons of water is more effective than a piece of cloth (common US practice).
 
Another side bar, how long were projection booths required to be built with fusible links attached to drop down metal plates for all ports. This long after nitrate film was no longer used.
 
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