Reasons not to get cheap moving head lights

[DavidNorth]

Chauvet also has MET and the Sharpy has ETL. These are both US-based safety testing services based on UL requirements. CE is very different than UL and the two are nowhere near interchangeable. The electrical safety requirements for things such as fusing, creepage and clearance, and wire size are more stringent under UL. A CE listed product is not a free ride out of a liability issue as far as an AHJ or fire inspector is concerned.

Perhaps this will help clarify a few things and allow people to knowledgeably choose their own direction as desired.

David

 

[Wood4321]

Yes both big boy lights and China lights fail, they have to everything fails some time. I've taken apart $3000.00 par lights and $300.00 par lights and if I put all the parts on a table anyone would be hard pressed to tell me what came from the big boy light and the Chinese special. I'm getting 3-5 years of abuse from mine and to be honest the industry changes to fast to even keep them that long. If I was paying $3K for ea. for ea. of my lights I doubt I would ever make a profit before I would retire them for a newer mode. The way I do it, is I purchase a gang of lights at 1W, then the big change was 3W, then a whopping 5W, then 10W, now I just ordered 15W pars. Could anyone imagine spending $20-30K a year on lights to upgrade to the new model.

I feel sorry for the guys I see in the locations I work at still using 3W led's that they paid 3K for years ago because they can't afford to change to the newer 15W lights.

UL is not the holy grail to the quality of a product, that's quite arrogant. CE is the gold standard in Europe and they could care less about UL. I feel quite confident with CSA, or CE approvals and with the manufacturer I purchase from, they are willing to get UL approval as long as I pay for it. That stamp will still not make the light any better, or fail less, or last longer.

I can say this fro safety and UL. I have seen more UL traditional light EXPLODE on set that any LED light ever made. The LED lights have many fuses that trip over and above the incandescent lights that were wire to bulb only.

Take a look at the back of a Chauvet light ( big boy ) and all you see is CE approved - same as the back of all my Chinese lights. If it's good enough for all of Europe and Canada, then it's good enough for me in the USA.

Here's how proud Chauvet is that their light meets CE approval....CHAUVET | News | newsletter, news, stories, installs calendar, LED lighting, tech tips, new product, product releases, product, newsletters, business newsletter, internet newsletter, magazine, e-news, e-newsletter, shows, scrapbook, photo album, photos, | CHAUVET® Lighting

Personally I have never purchased a light from China that does not meet CE approval, you know that same approval Chauvet demands.

Still not convinced - how about SHARPY ( another big boy ) , also CE approved. Clay Paky - Sharpy

Well, theres always one in a crowd.

Yes, a stepper motor is a stepper motor. The differences between an CE/ETL/UL listed piece of equipment will not be visible to the naked eye. (props for figuring that out by yourself)
The differences are in the tolerances the high voltage components such as power supplies, ballasts and such are manufactured to.
For a simple comparison, here is a non-theater link that explains the differences.
Note that the non apple charger carries the same listing marks as the real version.

(Yep, sorry I missed CE in my first pass, I shouldn't have missed it as the company I work for owns over 100 CE S4 Pars for use in Europe)

If you honestly believe your 300$ LED lights from china are CE listed, I have a bridge to sell you, or perhaps some nebraska ocean front property.
Take a look at this site, and see if you find your product. CE Marked Manufacturers Directory | CE Marked Products Directory

Also, I haven't been saying anything about Chauvet, while they are on the cheaper end, they get listed as anyone who wants to sell in the reputable global market should.
I don't usually use them on my shows, as I don't always find them tourable for years at a time. But from a safety standpoint, I would have no problem with them.

Sorry for the snark, but What the f***!?, I am tired of the continual "knock offs are the way to go" mindset from some on this board.
Anyhow, I agree with Jay, I'm out of this thread.

 

[DuckJordan]

While the cheap LED and movers have some use, The liability of using those fixtures, and something catastrophic failing (and I'm not talking that they stop working, I'm talking they fall from the air or cause the building to burn) will fall directly on you. There is no going to the manufacture there is no saying its CE certified. In the US you must use a US certification of electrical safety. Without that its your head on the chopping block. I'm working on a show right now THERE ISN'T SPACE FOR A SECOND FIXTURE TO COVER THE FIRST IF IT FAILS. In that situation you would be stupid to use a "Backup fixture" also a call to replace that fixture after the show would be in the 4 hour range... Now add labor up. Say you charge $25/hr per person. Lets say you can do it from a genie and need minimal people so lets say 6 people, 6x30 is sitting at 180*25 puts you at 4500 so now that 300 dollar light is now sitting at a $4800 light. Now yes it can happen with a "Big Name" brand light but the chance of failure after being used is much lower.

 

[kendal69]

Chauvet also has MET and the Sharpy has ETL. These are both US-based safety testing services based on UL requirements. CE is very different than UL and the two are nowhere near interchangeable. The electrical safety requirements for things such as fusing, creepage and clearance, and wire size are more stringent under UL. A CE listed product is not a free ride out of a liability issue as far as an AHJ or fire inspector is concerned.

Perhaps this will help clarify a few things and allow people to knowledgeably choose their own direction as desired.

David

WOW I better stay out or the rest of the world and only stay and use USA UL products because the rest of the world used CE only.

 

[kendal69]

Well, theres always one in a crowd.

Yes, a stepper motor is a stepper motor. The differences between an CE/ETL/UL listed piece of equipment will not be visible to the naked eye. (props for figuring that out by yourself)
The differences are in the tolerances the high voltage components such as power supplies, ballasts and such are manufactured to.
For a simple comparison, here is a non-theater link that explains the differences.
Note that the non apple charger carries the same listing marks as the real version.

(Yep, sorry I missed CE in my first pass, I shouldn't have missed it as the company I work for owns over 100 CE S4 Pars for use in Europe)

If you honestly believe your 300$ LED lights from china are CE listed, I have a bridge to sell you, or perhaps some nebraska ocean front property.
Take a look at this site, and see if you find your product. CE Marked Manufacturers Directory | CE Marked Products Directory

Also, I haven't been saying anything about Chauvet, while they are on the cheaper end, they get listed as anyone who wants to sell in the reputable global market should.
I don't usually use them on my shows, as I don't always find them tourable for years at a time. But from a safety standpoint, I would have no problem with them.

Sorry for the snark, but What the f***!?, I am tired of the continual "knock offs are the way to go" mindset from some on this board.
Anyhow, I agree with Jay, I'm out of this thread.

==================================
Well no one more snaky that me because I'm just as f*** tired of China bashing when people are just spewing talking points. I use and have used most brands since the early 70's, yes that makes me an old man, but one with far more experience than many here. I also get tired of people crying chicken little, the sky is falling on Chinese products. IF these products were as bad as people here seem to think they are why are they selling their product all over the world to the tune of BILLION of dollars in product and I have yet to hear on one " TEXAS CHAIN SAW MASSACRE of exploding lights?

Yes I found my manufacturer listed thanks for your concern - so now they pass the test, they are now initiated into the good ole boy CE club, they can now hang with the big boys because they're listed, Now and ONLY now they are A-O-K

Anyone that knows anything about Chinese importing knows for $39.00 you can get a certified audit report from an independent company - you may have heard of them - ALIBABA. My company is verified at selling 600 MILLION dollars of "Chinese junk" every year, so I guess if it was really JUNK they wouldn't sell so much of it now would they?

Like I said no one is saying "knock off" are the way to go. My argument always has been wake up - knock offs are not what people spewing talking points, who heard it from a friend, who read it on the net etc. I'm giving real world experience on the knock offs and have had none of the horror stories people are whining about here. Quite the opposite, I'm quite pleased with the product and have a new style mover coming in this week to test before I place a large order.

Listen I get that everyone here that spent 100K on lights and will take 5 years to make a nickle and are PO'D that I can use a knock off and make money on the first rental. Oooops sorry for you and those that want to justify spending 100K.

So really tell me how " touring is sooooooooo different than corporate gigs. Corporate gigs are every third night, Corporate gigs light for big starts in private parties, Corporate gigs have millions of dollars on the line id the lights don't work.

Tourable for YEARS at a time - WHY??????. New lights come out every year who in their right mind would WANT to use an antiquated light for years. Lights are like computers and iphone, their life span is short, so if people are using lights for years, then they are not giving their customers the latest and greatest, who could no one can afford 100K in lights every year. I CAN afford to buy the latest and greatest as I've shown with an order of 15W LED that ARE NOT a knock off since I know of no USA company making them. Not every Chinese light is a knock off.

 

[headcrab]

So buying Chinese fixtures works for you. Fine. It doesn't work for others, for whatever reason. Also fine.

This thread doesn't seem to be productive anymore. Can we end the flamewar?
Buy the hardware that's suitable for your application, and on with your life.

 

[soundman]

Tonight is my last night in Beijing after three weeks of loading in a show. I am dealing with motor package but I can share the woes the LX crew has faced and I have a few reasons to not buy Chinese lights...
The plot is 40% VL 3ks and the rest subbed in knock offs. total just shy of 200 moving heads. These note are from the first 3 weeks of load in / focus.
The local crew is droping about 4-6% of the Chinese lights a night after programing. Labor is cheap so thats not a big deal. What is a big deal is the time the director wastes reprogramming lights that have been swapped to make up for offsets in the hanging position.
The dimmer techs have to let the local lights home, strike and warm up before powering on the rest of the rig because when the local lights home and strike they send nasty harmonics out if causes the rest of the rig to wig out. If a service goes down during a show how will it effect the rest of the rig when it comes back on?
The optics are crap compared to the 3Ks which are how many years old now? Its near impossible to get a nice hard edge on a gobo without it getting blue for a portion of it and brown for the rest.

Most of my work is in concert touring, Chinese lights turn up as truss toners or set lighting. Things that get trashed and are thrown in for free on a rental. To hang a full rig of them would add another tech to the tour. Chalk at 8 load in rigging and LX at 9 ready for backline to load in at noon doesnt leave much time to be roping in lights or letting a rig soak in the test cue to see whats broke that day. Adding a tech will cost production north of 5K a week by the time the rental house marks up for their taxes, fees, and profit margin and the PD and hotel the tour would have to provide. That is the same cost as adding another truck. Ask any PM what he would rather do and the answer is always more trucks.

What works for one market might not work in another. If cheap Chinese lights were the answer to concert touring PRG, Upstaging, Christie, and Solotech would be bidding against each other to buy by the container.

 

[techieman33]

And don't forget that without Vari-lite, Martin, Clay Paky and the rest there wouldn't be any fixtures for the fly by night chinese companies to make bad copies of.

 

[jstroming]

I agree with you kendal69. So many people bashing chinese lights, eventually they'll lose business to people like you and wise up! Year after year they gain acceptance. Albeit slower in the US, it is still happening. Much faster in other parts of the world.

Understand many people arguing with you aren't running businesses, they're designers or tech people responsible for fixing the lights. Of course they want the "best" and easiest! Not the cheapest. If the roles were reversed you'd want the easiest lights to deal with or the ones that will make your show look the best. Frankly I don't know why the heck they want to be on that side of the fence, but to each his own!


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[LavaASU]

Wow, this got nasty fast.

I have used various chinese LEDs. They have their uses... if you need to throw a whole lot of light and you don't care about potential video flicker or dimming curve, they're great. I'm surprised they work so well for corporate as I know most of mine flickered quite bad on video. That said, I've used them with great success for stuff like bands (flash and trash), uplights, ect. Regarding the group I mostly used them with, the general policy was equipment was not left plugged in unattended for safety reasons. Never had any issues though-- lights failing, sure... lights failing dangerously I've seen a clay paky (caught on fire) and a HES intellibeam (shocked a tech) do it but none of the Chinese ones...

That said, theres a LOT of uses I don't think Chinese lights are great for. A china special is NOT a VL3500.

 

[jglodeklights]

I'd argue that in theater we actually don't have the space to double or triple hang instruments. I don't mean just on our pipes, but also our arbors and the weight they can support. Movers are usually used as specials, or to create template washes. We really don't have the space with our conventionals and the set to put two in each spot we use them.

And yes, we sometimes only have one fixture, no matter what it is, lighting an actor.

 

[Tex]

And yes, we sometimes only have one fixture, no matter what it is, lighting an actor.

Sometimes we even do it on purpose.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

What the optimal solution is is not always obvious, and depends very much on the target environment.

Sent from my SPH-L720

 

[Dionysus]

WOW I better stay out or the rest of the world and only stay and use USA UL products because the rest of the world used CE only.

I'm in Canada and I have to say that is not the case here. UL is no-good it needs to be CUL, CSA, etc. there is a list of acceptable and not acceptable certifications. I've seen events shut down by ESA (Electrical Safety Authority) inspectors for not having "stickers" on some of their gear.
I'll happily use a cheaper Chinese knock off, especially for smaller gigs, community theatre, corporate etc. again won't see them used with bigger bands for music events.
Certainly won't see anything without proper approval stickers on the unit on any gig getting an inspection.

At one summer festival I routinely do I saw an inspector about to make us take a rack of amps off site and fine us because their stickers were missing. Luck ally I was there (and knew the inspector) and talked him into letting it slide (was a very well known brand).


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[Chris15]

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While we respect the right of everyone to hold their own opinions, this thread is moving nowhere helpful.

Thread Closed.