Reasons not to get cheap moving head lights

[Esoteric]

Great post. You would not believe how much junk we went through (buying and testing) before we picked the 10 or so products we sell now.

Also know to some extent you get what you pay for. We make good deals because we take a little less profit, but you are not buying one of my moving lights and getting a VL3500. You just aren't. It is good stuff, but its not a VL. Just like an Elation Opto-Splitter is not DFD splitter. Its just not.

Mike

 

[gafftaper]

This brings us back to one of my pet peeves, which is the snobbery many of us have about lower quality gear here. We can't all afford Martin/HES/ETC/Yamaha... etc. But we don't all need those quality brands either. There is a right tool for the right job at every budget level in this industry. You just have to be realistic about the expectations of what it can do and surround yourself with dealers you can trust to help you make good decisions and give you quality repairs when things do go wrong.

 

[Esoteric]

Great post. We are going to team up with R90 productions in the American NW to do an entire festival (a large one) exclusively with our Visioneer LED fixtures as a "green" festival. The promoter is thrilled with the idea.

 

[Bubby4j]

How hard is it to do your own repairs? I can understand they'd be more moving parts than a computer but how does it compare?

 

[Les]

How hard is it to do your own repairs? I can understand they'd be more moving parts than a computer but how does it compare?

Compared to computers? Well for the most part, moving lights don't use parts that are easy to find or substitute. Most people don't do component-level repairs to computers so I won't go there, but computers are largely open-sourced. You can get hard drives, power supplies, and things like that pretty cheap online. But looking for that particular stepper motor or driver chip for a moving head isn't so easy. Very proprietary and brand-specific in most cases. Parts usually aren't available at your local Radioshack.

The reason this thread mentions repairs is largely because time = money. If something should be under warranty, why would you want to pay for your own parts (which can be very expensive), and invest your own labor hours in to repairing the fixtures? [-]Some[/-] Most venues don't have the time to invest in to getting a moving light working. Add to that, most venues aren't staffed with individuals who are trained to repair moving lights.

 

[gafftaper]

Exactly, if you had access to the parts you need, it would be time consuming but you could do it eventually. But getting the parts is the hard part.

Repairing a mover is closer to repairing a clock than a computer, there are a LOT of parts in there. Take a look at this exploded diagram for working on a Clay Paky Alpha 1200 fixture. If you are lucky you will have a diagram this good. Some companies provide them some don't. If you are lucky you will be able to get parts from the factory or a secondary dealer like www.lightparts.com If you aren't lucky you'll have no parts available and nothing to tell you what the parts are or where they go.

 

[Esoteric]

Exactly, if you had access to the parts you need, it would be time consuming but you could do it eventually. But getting the parts is the hard part.

Repairing a mover is closer to repairing a clock than a computer, there are a LOT of parts in there. Take a look at this exploded diagram for working on a Clay Paky Alpha 1200 fixture. If you are lucky you will have a diagram this good. Some companies provide them some don't. If you are lucky you will be able to get parts from the factory or a secondary dealer like LightParts.com - The Parts and Repair Source for Entertainment Lighting If you aren't lucky you'll have no parts available and nothing to tell you what the parts are or where they go.

Yeah, I am so thankful that I went to a University where I could get no pressure (well, almost no pressure) experience in repairing moving lights (they expected us to break things). It was invaluable. Got me a lot of jobs when I first started. Helps me do warranty work on these lights too.

 

[kendal69]

Just because something is made in China doesn't make it bad. There are many major products made in China. The trick is to minimize risk by watching quality of components, build quality, and buying from someone who is going to stand behind the product down the road to support it.

Don't buy the cheapest fixtures you can find from "Joe's random website", E-bay, or direct from "Guangzhou Super Best Stage Lighting". You have no guarantee of quality components, build quality and no one to back them up. These products may have pictures and specifications that look exactly like a Martin product. They may be built in the same factory as Elation... heck maybe even the same assembly line. But what are you going to do if they break in two months? Who do you go to for parts? Who do you get to fix it? You are buying a disposable fixture with no guarantee of how long it will last or if there is any sort of possible repair when it's done.

.

Why NOT buy the cheapest light, I do and I make money the day that light goes out apposed to buying through a USA dealer name brand.

I've been buying from ( no name Chinese company) light manufacturers for over a decade and you are 100% correct about service etc., but here's what people need to understand, it's all about PRICE, PRICE, PRICE. I got a quote for a name brand light from a typical dealer, the mover was nearly 4K for ONE LIGHT. The Chinese no name light was $385.00 for the comparable light, lumens, gobos etc., times (4) lights $397 for shipping shipping $125.00 times (2) road case. So a little over $2,000.00 for (4) "equivalent" lights compared to nearly $20,000.00 for the NAME BRAND, well built, dealer serviced light.

Again $2,000.00 vs $20,000.00. So you can see why I buy the no name, no service brand. Now here's what I do as far as service, I either throw the light away if it breaks down, because even if my brand name light needed repair it would cost more than buying a new Chinese Special. Or, I have had the Chinese company send me a box of repair parts at no charge, Drivers, motors, LED panels, cords. etc. they are more than willing to do that.

In my over a decade of buying and using lights from China, I calculate the dead on arrival lights ( but I have had dead on arrival lights from major vendors in the USA also ). I get to make a PROFIT on the lights on the very first job. I rent the movers for what they cost me new.

I've done the same with LED pars, bar lights etc. I have purchased bar lights that are as bright and functional as the know $3,000.00 bar light that is popular, for $300.00.

So you have good arguments, but it's hard to make money in the lighting business when you need to spend $20K on lights - how long do you have to rent those out to make a profit....and when you do FINALLY start to make a profit, that light is WAY WAY WAY past it's prime and the industry has moved on with better, brighter.

That's why, the second a light gives me trouble - it goes in the trash, and I no longer cringe like I used to, my time is worth more that it takes to trouble shoot a bad light .

Bottom line in over a decade I have never ever had a customer come up to me and say GEE, I didn't like the lights because they were cheap Chinese throw away lights. In this business, it's about making profit and keeping customers happy and I do that in spades with the Cheap Chinese "junk"

 

[Jay Ashworth]

So, kendal: your incidence of "luminaire fails *during a customer event*" has been low enough to make that a sensible approach?

 

[techieman33]

Why NOT buy the cheapest light, I do and I make money the day that light goes out apposed to buying through a USA dealer name brand.

I've been buying from ( no name Chinese company) light manufacturers for over a decade and you are 100% correct about service etc., but here's what people need to understand, it's all about PRICE, PRICE, PRICE. I got a quote for a name brand light from a typical dealer, the mover was nearly 4K for ONE LIGHT. The Chinese no name light was $385.00 for the comparable light, lumens, gobos etc., times (4) lights $397 for shipping shipping $125.00 times (2) road case. So a little over $2,000.00 for (4) "equivalent" lights compared to nearly $20,000.00 for the NAME BRAND, well built, dealer serviced light.

Again $2,000.00 vs $20,000.00. So you can see why I buy the no name, no service brand. Now here's what I do as far as service, I either throw the light away if it breaks down, because even if my brand name light needed repair it would cost more than buying a new Chinese Special. Or, I have had the Chinese company send me a box of repair parts at no charge, Drivers, motors, LED panels, cords. etc. they are more than willing to do that.

In my over a decade of buying and using lights from China, I calculate the dead on arrival lights ( but I have had dead on arrival lights from major vendors in the USA also ). I get to make a PROFIT on the lights on the very first job. I rent the movers for what they cost me new.

I've done the same with LED pars, bar lights etc. I have purchased bar lights that are as bright and functional as the know $3,000.00 bar light that is popular, for $300.00.

So you have good arguments, but it's hard to make money in the lighting business when you need to spend $20K on lights - how long do you have to rent those out to make a profit....and when you do FINALLY start to make a profit, that light is WAY WAY WAY past it's prime and the industry has moved on with better, brighter.

That's why, the second a light gives me trouble - it goes in the trash, and I no longer cringe like I used to, my time is worth more that it takes to trouble shoot a bad light .

Bottom line in over a decade I have never ever had a customer come up to me and say GEE, I didn't like the lights because they were cheap Chinese throw away lights. In this business, it's about making profit and keeping customers happy and I do that in spades with the Cheap Chinese "junk"

If your going along with your lights all the time that can work for you, or if you renting to smaller clients. There are a lot of clients that would laugh at you and hang up the phone if you told them you didn't really have sharpies, you had chinese knock offs. It all depends on what your doing and who your clients are.

 

[kendal69]

So, kendal: your incidence of "luminaire fails *during a customer event*" has been low enough to make that a sensible approach?

My theory is solely based on math. I have ordered 24 10 watt LED pars three times and get 100% non failure rate. Now after my guys toss them around drop a pipe and base with 4 LED pars on it, yes the lights fail, any light would. I have also ordered two moving head ( famous name clone ) and one worked the other flawless for years. Again Rather than spend $4,000.00 I only spent $385.00, so the failure doesn't bother me as I make enough actual profit by buying these lights dirt cheap and renting them all day long, that the loss doesn't even figure. That only happened once in buying upwards of 300 lights by now. They way it's been working for me is if they fail they fail after a dozen uses or so and that failure rate is small. After that the failure, rate is due to abuse etc. on my guys part.

I just donated a dozen lights to a local high school drama department that I purchased a decade ago and the school was glad to have those bright "1W" led lights. So those ar ethe oldest lights I have and were still running strong.

The added benefit of buying large lots of cheap lights automatically gives you a large about of parts when and if lights fail, if one wants to repair. I don't repair I just throw them away as time is worth more than buying a new light.

I will add this, I ordered some name brand lights from a big name brand manufacturer and I got a 10% failure rate, granted they warranty repaired the light, but still, failure happens with everyone. Really no name brand manufacturer has any more "control" over production that I do. No one is sitting next to the Chinese worker and making them build any one light better for them. Sure that Chinese company has a lot more to lose stiffing a big guy than me, but I'm convinced all the lights are coming off the same line any way.

I had one job that was critical, and the 10W Led lights would burn 8 hours a hay for 4 days ( that would scare anyone with any light ) so I brought in the 24 lights, and I had a fresh 24 lights as back up - I never needed them, but as suck a little investment it was insurance. When I buy lights at 10% of retail I can afford to have backs up on top of back ups.

Now I'm not "pushing" the use of Cheap Chinese lights, but just what works for me. When I went buy a new board, I took my chap Chinese light to see if the board would talk to the light. The guys at shop were STUNNED at what I paid for the 10W LED par in a cast aluminum housing. Like they said, they couldn't even buy the housing for what I paid for a working light. I think they wanted to see if they could break my light to prove a point - they lost. I'm also not denying any name brand company from making huge profits, they deserve it for advertising, support etc.

i elect to be my own warranty department....I just buy another light. Think about this, after warranty from a major mfg is over, I need to send it in to a repair facility. By the time I send a moving head in for repair, I have to pay shipping BOTH WAYS, tech time I think is nearing $100.00 or more ( well deserved by the way ), plus I need to pay for parts, ( a simple motor is $100.00 ) and I need to wait a week or two. So I would be into a repair nearing $400.00. I just bought a name brand clone with shipping for the same price and it will be here Tuesday. We all know most problems happen the day the warranty ends any way, plus often times you fight with the manufacturer as they will say - SORRY you abused the light.

Now lets talk about service. I can order lights from ( insert brand name here ) and I usually get - "We're out of stock and, will have more in two weeks" . When I order from China on a Thursday I'm unboxing the lights on Tuesday - better service than from Amazon.

 

[kendal69]

If your going along with your lights all the time that can work for you, or if you renting to smaller clients. There are a lot of clients that would laugh at you and hang up the phone if you told them you didn't really have sharpies, you had chinese knock offs. It all depends on what your doing and who your clients are.

Smaller clients, funny, I did 85K last week what did you do? Don't try and demean my business by insinuating "smaller' clients to justify your ignorance on the value of Chinese lights.

Number one I've been in business for 25 plus years using theatrical lighting for the corporate market and NO ONE has ever asked me what lights I'm using, who makes them, etc. They only thing they ask is I want the room BLUE, or RED etc. So do you want to know who's laughing - ME. When I go up against a company that specs out Shapies and bids against me, they LOSE every time. I'm laughing alrigh....... all the way to the bank. Whatever they charge for a moving Sharpie I can beat them HANDS DOWN. I can also Triple hang my lights as insurance where as the Shapie guy could never afford to do that.

Now I get you may be from the music industry whereas name brand lights from anal LD's is the norm. I'm from the corporate industry and they could care less, and 100% of the people I deal with think a Sharpie is something you write with. Sorryy to burts your bubble on the laughing comment. ...well nah I'm not really.

Who's the customer going to buy from when I tell them I will do 10 moving lights and the the Sharpie guy says he's do three both for the same money. Don't kid yourself. In the real world more is better.

I will bet any amount of money that the average person in the audience or corporate client can never tell the difference between a Sharpie Clone of a Sharpie. Plus like I said, I get paid after every event, and the customer is happy enough with my Chines lights that they book me again next year and one last week asked if I would do their Vegas event next year.

Listen I get that all the LD lighting nerds go apoplectic at the mention of Chinese lights, but I've got over a decade of using them successfully, and I can guarantee I make more money at my shows that the Sharpy guy is making - do the math. The market will only bear a certain amount for lighting - that's fact.

Some day, you will wake up and realize it truly is about making money, not using brand names.

 

[Wood4321]

Something I don't think anyone has mentioned, and I find very important, is the existence of a UL or ETL Listing on any device I purchase. I understand the likelihood of a piece of equipment melting down over an audience is very low, but If it happens, I don't want to be held liable for knowingly using an unlisted piece of equipment.
Plus the piece of mind that is provided to myself by using listed equipment well outweighs the price difference.
Then again, I do touring shows, and I find that the cheaper fixtures don't always hold up in my environment anyhow, listed or not. (Hell, the big boys lights fail too when they are rode hard and put away wet)

 

[josh88]

Smaller clients, funny, I did 85K last week what did you do? Don't try and demean my business by insinuating "smaller' clients to justify your ignorance on the value of Chinese lights.

The whole point of ending his post with "it all depends on what you're doing and who your clients are." was saying that not everybody's clients would be happy with Chinese fixtures but that some (as your case illustrates) are. I'm in a place where the people coming through my space would never know the difference, but the rental house in town wouldn't think about keeping anything like that in their stock.


Via tapatalk

 

[Jay Ashworth]

Ah... I see it now.

For the record, Kendal, corporate does indeed have much looser constraints (and often, much more money) than theatre, which is the context in which most of the people in this thread/on this forum are evaluating these value judgments.

If that's working for you, go with that. But I understand that we call it gambling, because sometimes you lose. And in theater, it's often not cost effective to triple hang a show for that.

Sent from my SPH-L720

 

[Jay Ashworth]

Sigh. "But understand"

Sent from my SPH-L720

 

[kendal69]

The whole point of ending his post with "it all depends on what you're doing and who your clients are." was saying that not everybody's clients would be happy with Chinese fixtures but that some (as your case illustrates) are. I'm in a place where the people coming through my space would never know the difference, but the rental house in town wouldn't think about keeping anything like that in their stock.

Yes. and my point was in contrast to that comment of not every comment, with - EVERY client I have had in the last decade - 1) Did not know or care who made the lights, and 2) every customer has been EXTREMELY happy with the Chinese lights. In fact, much more happy when I was using Chinese LED lights before anyone else was selling them in the USA, and I was able to do endless colors with ON E light.

Furthermore No matter who's name sis on the fixture, components are being made in China. Sure you have companies that "manufacture" in other countries, but look inside the light and the components are from China.

You can bet you're driving in a car that has parts made in China, John Deere tractors the good ole boy tractors have components made in China, as do most tractor builders like CAT. Ships, planes, trucks, cars all have parts from China. So what makes China lights so taboo, when everything else made in China is just peachy?

I'm not trying to convince anyone or argue, but I will stand up and show another side of all the "cheap Chinese light bashing"

Via tapatalk

 

[kendal69]

Something I don't think anyone has mentioned, and I find very important, is the existence of a UL or ETL Listing on any device I purchase. I understand the likelihood of a piece of equipment melting down over an audience is very low, but If it happens, I don't want to be held liable for knowingly using an unlisted piece of equipment.
Plus the piece of mind that is provided to myself by using listed equipment well outweighs the price difference.
Then again, I do touring shows, and I find that the cheaper fixtures don't always hold up in my environment anyhow, listed or not. (Hell, the big boys lights fail too when they are rode hard and put away wet)

Yes both big boy lights and China lights fail, they have to everything fails some time. I've taken apart $3000.00 par lights and $300.00 par lights and if I put all the parts on a table anyone would be hard pressed to tell me what came from the big boy light and the Chinese special. I'm getting 3-5 years of abuse from mine and to be honest the industry changes to fast to even keep them that long. If I was paying $3K for ea. for ea. of my lights I doubt I would ever make a profit before I would retire them for a newer mode. The way I do it, is I purchase a gang of lights at 1W, then the big change was 3W, then a whopping 5W, then 10W, now I just ordered 15W pars. Could anyone imagine spending $20-30K a year on lights to upgrade to the new model.

I feel sorry for the guys I see in the locations I work at still using 3W led's that they paid 3K for years ago because they can't afford to change to the newer 15W lights.

UL is not the holy grail to the quality of a product, that's quite arrogant. CE is the gold standard in Europe and they could care less about UL. I feel quite confident with CSA, or CE approvals and with the manufacturer I purchase from, they are willing to get UL approval as long as I pay for it. That stamp will still not make the light any better, or fail less, or last longer.

I can say this fro safety and UL. I have seen more UL traditional light EXPLODE on set that any LED light ever made. The LED lights have many fuses that trip over and above the incandescent lights that were wire to bulb only.

Take a look at the back of a Chauvet light ( big boy ) and all you see is CE approved - same as the back of all my Chinese lights. If it's good enough for all of Europe and Canada, then it's good enough for me in the USA.

Here's how proud Chauvet is that their light meets CE approval....CHAUVET | News | newsletter, news, stories, installs calendar, LED lighting, tech tips, new product, product releases, product, newsletters, business newsletter, internet newsletter, magazine, e-news, e-newsletter, shows, scrapbook, photo album, photos, | CHAUVET® Lighting

Personally I have never purchased a light from China that does not meet CE approval, you know that same approval Chauvet demands.

Still not convinced - how about SHARPY ( another big boy ) , also CE approved. Clay Paky - Sharpy

 

[kendal69]

Ah... I see it now.

For the record, Kendal, corporate does indeed have much looser constraints (and often, much more money) than theatre, which is the context in which most of the people in this thread/on this forum are evaluating these value judgments.

If that's working for you, go with that. But I understand that we call it gambling, because sometimes you lose. And in theater, it's often not cost effective to triple hang a show for that.

Sent from my SPH-L720

Lets dissect some things you just said. " it's often not cost effective to triple hang a show" Theater used to ALWAYS triple set, they had to, when gels were the norm ( RED GEL, GREEN GEL, BLUE GEL etc. so that argument does not hold water. My triple set comment was tongue in cheek to the people that feared Chines lights failing, my suggestion, hang an insurance light - heck hang three if it makes you feel better.

If I feel the need and something was mission critical I would hang "insurance lights" just like I would bring in "insurance" lighting consoles, just like I bring "insurance" generators that sit idle, insurance lap tops etc. Anyone who doesn't bring back up equipment, no matter who makes it, or how dependable it has been in the past is simply a fool in my opinion.

OK so if I understand you correctly and you may be a theater guy/gal, and you have huge "star" singing the main number for the show and you have ONE light on the star? Seriously, that is ludicrous. Let me repeat myself here ALL EQUIPMENT FAILS.

Now lets dissect the cost effectiveness. Hanging three ( tongue in cheek) $385.00ea. moving head clones. Hanging three Chinese clones is far far far less money than hanging (1) big boy brand name light. Total cost triple hanging ( tongue in cheek ) only cost $1,155.00.Hanging ONE big boy light is $4,000.00. Chances of THREE Chinese lights going down during any one show in inconceivable.

So having said that - tell me again how it's NOT cost effective? I'm scratching my head in confusion.

Lastly, please don't think this site is primarily / predominately theater people. The people that visit this site all from all walks of lighting - including manufacturers quite often are here.

The thread was started and quipping about "cheap" lights, others chimed in about Chinese lights. That's how threads work, develop and transform, and that includes every thread ever posted on the internet and about any subject.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

FTR: I'm pretty sure that if you hang non UL listed fixtures, and the building burns down, you're buying a building. And with that I'm out.

Sent from my SPH-L720