Sending Audio and Video to other rooms

[GreyWyvern]

I know I am potentially opening a can of worms here, but I need information.

For the church where I am the TD, I was asked to find out what it would take to get an image from a video camera and the corresponding audio from the main auditorium to another smaller auditorium. In the most basic sense, it would serve as a feed for an overflow situation. I was also asked about sending the same feed into the nursery. That's the basic premise.

Now the details (or lack thereof)...

-I do not yet have a camera. The camera would be mounted on the back wall of the room about 100' from the speaking stage. It needs to be able to get a good waist up shot on the speaker.
-The cable runs would both be between 200' to 300'.
-The smaller auditorium already has a video system in place. This is used for scaling and switching.
-For the nursery, an HDTV would be purchased as an A/V monitor.
-Budget is not an issue at this point as I am mainly gathering information to see what we can and cannot do. However, keep in mind, Church=Limited Funds.

I am looking for...
-What type of camera would be good? Should I look into robotic control or at least remote control of zoom or would static be good enough?
-What is the best way to deal with the audio? A feed from the console, capture with camera, or _________.
-What "boxes" will be needed to combine video and audio (if separate) to prevent sync issues?
-What is the best way to deal with the signal(s) on the receiving end?
-What cable would be best to use?

That is all I can think of for now. I know I am missing things, but that is why I am asking here.

Thanks.

Dave Stauss

 

[ruinexplorer]

The last church I worked at, we used a robotic camera. This gave us the flexibility of having an operator, or having preset positions (six or eight of them, I can't remember). The advantage over a static camera was the intamacy of the image (close up of the speaker). In my opinion, this helped keep those in the overflow areas feeling connected to the service and less like they were the cast offs. Also, you can get away with smaller TVs if you are able to zoom in.

We didn't bother to mix the audio into the signal. We switched the system already in the room to the church feed when the service was going and then back to the individual room control afterwards.

Are you planning on putting the system in place yourself or hiring a contractor? Does the smaller auditorium have HDTV already? I personally would recommend upgrading if you don't in order to keep your signal the same in both rooms.

 

[GreyWyvern]

Thanks for the reply. So you think that we should go with a robotic camera over one that just has remote zoom and focus? We would always use a tight shot and maybe just zoom out some if we needed to so that we could get the whole band in the shot.

There is already a full audio and video system in the second room but nothing in the third room (nursery). We just think it would be nice to send a feed there for the volunteers. We would likely get another 42" LG LCD HDTV to match the ones we already have in other locations around the building. I think part of what might make this tricky is the fact that the signal will end up at two totally different systems. In the second room, can we just tie into the Extron unit we have and let that deal with the audio and video? I assume we will have to have something to combine the audio and video signals in the main room and split it to go its different ways. And then a couple other devices on the receiving ends to allow the signals to go into the Extron and TV. Am I right? What gear might I need?

I would likely do the work myself, mainly due to cost savings, but I also do have some experience with A/V installation. Regardless though, our regular consultant will be involved.

Dave

 

[SHARYNF]

A lot depends on your budget. If you go with a robotic camera you need the camera, and the controller and someone to run it some of the time. You could go a simple as one of the Canon VC c50i

Canon VC-C50i PTZ Pan/Tilt/Zoom Webcam Video CAMERA - eBay (item 250406200133 end time Mar-08-10 21:27:23 PST)

Canon VC-C4-C50i Camera USB CONTROL/S-VIDEO BALUN XTNDR - eBay (item 230440086283 end time Mar-21-10 18:15:43 PDT)

This company makes a system that you can use your pc via usb to control it, and also send the svideo signal and control over UTP

I have used these, they work fine depending on what you want to do. There are higher end solutions but the cost goes up dramatically


I do not know what Extron you have but a simple S video distro like the MDA 3ASV

http://www.extron.com/product/product.aspx?id=mda3sv&subtype=31&s=4

Or the extron MDA3SVA with stereo audio might work

http://www.extron.com/product/product.aspx?id=mda3sva&subtype=31&s=4


on the high end here is the Panasonic HD solution Camera only AS he100

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webap...-_-Right Hand Promo-_-Integrated HD-SD Camera

and then the controller aw rp555

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webap...alogId=13051&itemId=102045&surfModel=AW-RP555

I have used this one also, but you are then looking at a 12 grand solution

Sharyn

 

[GreyWyvern]

Awesome. Thanks Sharyn. I'll see what I can dig up on that camera. The auction doesn't say anything about resolution. With it being S-video, I am not too hopeful. We are widescreen in the second room, but not HD. I already know that black bars or a stretched image will not be okay.

The Extron units we use are the IN1508. So just about any connection will work.

That will give me a good starting point for the video side, but there is still the issue of getting the audio feed both places and without any sync issues. Anyone have any ideas?

Dave

 

[SHARYNF]

Awesome. Thanks Sharyn. I'll see what I can dig up on that camera. The auction doesn't say anything about resolution. With it being S-video, I am not too hopeful. We are widescreen in the second room, but not HD. I already know that black bars or a stretched image will not be okay.

The Extron units we use are the IN1508. So just about any connection will work.

That will give me a good starting point for the video side, but there is still the issue of getting the audio feed both places and without any sync issues. Anyone have any ideas?

Dave

As soon as you want a robotic camera with widescreen you are up in the 3-4k Range the Sony Brc300 is an example

Sony BRC300 Robotic Color Video Camera, 3-CCD Quality with Widescreen Option, 1/4.7 Inch Image Device, NTSC Signal System, 3.6 mm to 46.2 mm Lens, 1,070,000 Total Pixels Number of Pixels, 600 TV Lines Horizontal Resolution, 7 Lux at f/1.6 Minimum Ill

The Canon is full Standard Rez camera, 400 lines 340,000 pixels

Canon | VC-C50i 1/4-Inch CCD Communication Camera | 0667B001

you should not have any delay issues if you go from camera to the display and not thru any scaler.

Again it all comes down to budget, if you have 12K to spend then go with the Panasonic

IF you have about 6 grand to spend then the Sony Brc 300
Sony Product Detail Page - BRC300

with the RMBR300

Sony Product Detail Page - BRC300

If you needed to delay the audio to sync with the video then Feltson for example has a unit that you could use

Lip Sync Error Fix. Digital Audio Delay - Plasma TV, LCD, DLP - Felston

Felston Digital Audio Delay - Buy


So here are some personal observations:

IMO SD video displayed on a wide screen display with the side bars does not look bad, for some reason we tend to ignore the side black bars much more easily than the upper and lower bars.

If you go down the path to widescreen and typically HD, IMO you really start to need to have a person who is manning multiple Robotic cameras and mixing the feed. The Single camera, with the zoom etc adjusted for a fixed shot really does puts you into a lower quality perceived setting immediately. Reason is we are used to looking at professional tv and we expect the changing shots every few seconds etc.
I have used a wide range of variety of these types of cameras

I have had reasonable success with what clients have found acceptable quality using 4 of the Canon Vc C50i cameras, being controlled with a Telemetrics joystic controller and using control/s video over UTP and feeding a Panasonic Mx50 mixer. If the feed is going into a room where there is ONLY audio being fed from a remote location, then I use an audio delay to align the video especially if I am using a Projector. IF it is for Imag in the same room, then this will not work

In my experience the selection of the shots with close ups etc makes up for the lower than HD resolution. (we have been happy with DVD's for a long time) S video quality on a signal feed is typically not the issue, we associate it with lower quaility when we RECORD it.

Again, depends on budget. To do it "right" with multiple robotic cameras (three typical) remote control and a HD mixer you are about 50 grand. Then you start to look at do you want robotic cameras or do you want manned cameras and you are then off into total live production


iSharyn

 

[MarshallPope]

For a very simple solution for the nursery feed, have you thought about just using a coax modulator? Assuming you can get both the video and audio to RCA, you could just send it all down one line of coax.

 

[SHARYNF]

I would have suggested the modulator solution but the OP seems to wants a solution with seemingly high quality.

Sharyn

 

[TheDonkey]

Slightly off-topic, but going to multiple concerts, I've seen the same model of robotic camera used for the live vision feeds, is there a top-of-the-line HD model that's commonly used?

 

[SHARYNF]

Slightly off-topic, but going to multiple concerts, I've seen the same model of robotic camera used for the live vision feeds, is there a top-of-the-line HD model that's commonly used?

The Panasonic listed above is pretty common

Sharyn

 

[museav]

I personally don't like the term "robotic camera" for what is being discussed as if you go to some broadcast studios or sporting events you'll see a different level of robotics where the camera can be moved and raised and lowered as well as having pan/tilt and zoom/focus. Those also have a much smoother movement with greater control, some cheaper integrated cameras can pan and tilt but you may not want to do it with the camera live.

If you will never pan or tilt then it makes no sense to pay for that or to have to deal with it during system setup. However, there is sort of a gap in fixed camera systems between CCTV/security level cameras and broadcast quality cameras. That is one reason why integrated camera and pan/tilt units are so popular, there are a number of options that come from the videoconferencing world that conveniently fill that gap. Also realize that to get the most from higher end cameras means things like getting a waveform monitor and vectorscope to do camera setup and white balancing. This also addresses Donkey's question, a camera and pan/tilt assembly can go from under $1,000 to well over $100,000 so what may be "standard" can range considerably and might be determined as much by the level of production as it is by the general application.

Another thing to verify is the view possible with the camera's optics. Can it accommodate the tight close-up you want as well as the wider 'beauty shot' from the camera location planned? This is often not a problem but better to know that before purchasing and installing it. For integrated camera and lens units the product information typically lists a maximum and minimum angular field of view that you can use to determine the image area at the distance involved. With separate lens and camera locations you have to calculate this based on the lens specs and the imager size.

"HD" and widescreen get into a unique area of not only having to make sure that everything in the signal chain supports it and the related signal format (analog component video, HD-SDI, etc.) but also of what is meant by "HD". Flat panel displays that are 1920x1080 (1080p) native resolution are now pretty easy to find but moving from 720p or 1080i to 1080p on the camera and production side still is a significant step.


On the signal distribution, I think you first need to identify the signal being distributed. What video output does the camera support and what video inputs will the switcher and flat panel support? What cabling paths exist? I know that the Extron switcher accepts a multitude of inputs but I have to think that some are in use, so what is available? Sharyn mentioned S-Video and while I typically look at S-Video as having been superseded by component video for most applications it is still used for many lower cost cameras. However, I would not usually try to run S-Video 200' to 300', if nothing else I would break it out to two larger coax runs with adapter on each end. Similar with the modulator approach, as that also requires a coax cable and demodulators at every destination. The point is that you have to know what you are trying to get where before being able to address the best way to do that.

Audio I typically take off the audio mixer, I generally like to use an aux send that is switchable pre or post fader for this if possible. I also like to add an ambient mic, something that can pick up the general room sound, when dealing with recording, ALS or remote feed mixes, something that can provide more sense of being in the room. As noted, in some cases relative delay between the video and audio can be a problem but with a camera direct into the switcher and not having to deal with also having the live source int he room that would not usually be an issue.

 

[GreyWyvern]

Thanks for your help so far. I have gotten more specifics as to what is needed, so...

The camera we are going to use for the foreseeable future (because we already own it) is this JVC. To recap things, I need to take an audio and video feed from one room to (at least) two others. One room, a second auditorium, has a full projection system and audio system in place. It is widescreen, but not HD. In this room, the video signal ideally would come out of the balun and go into an iMac running ProPresenter using the live video function so that the message points could be shown over the bottom of the picture. The audio would go straight into the console. The other room(s), will have an HDTV mounted on the wall as the monitor. Audio will be from the TV. The video image will not be used at all in the main room for IMag, the room isn't big enough for it to be needed. That is the main reason this is being done, to feed an overflow area. We just also want to send a feed elsewhere while we are at it. I think that covers everything, so on to my questions.

Question 1: What baluns will I need? We want the one on the sending end to have maybe 8 outputs for possible future expansion.

Question 2: How do I deal with the audio? My thought is to come out of an aux on the console and go into the camera, then from there into the balun. I am guessing that audio sync will be an issue, no matter what. The Felston unit seems like the way to go on that, but where would it come into play? I'm thinking that it won't really work to have just one before the first balun.

Question 3: In regards to the previous questions, which output on the camera should be used, HDMI, Component, or USB?

Thanks.

Dave

EDIT: I just had another thought that will likely throw a wrench into things, but I don't want it to take away from the overall goal of the questions. Would it be possible, to just send the signal just to the second auditorium, do the Propresenter thing with it there, and then send it out again to the other locations? I know this isn't the ideal way to do this, but we don't have a broadcast studio, bor the money for one!


GRRRR.... I took too long tying this up and CB kicked me out and I lost it all because I forgot to copy everything to the clipboard before hitting the button. However, it is much cleaner this second time!

 

[SHARYNF]

Couple of questions
what is the projection unit that you are using MOST of the projectors today will in fact support some variant of HD.

Most of the less equipment these days is using HD Component, since it is a bit easier to work with than HDMI.

I would say that unless for some reason you need to record on the camcorder you probably don't need to feed the audio back to it. IF you do then that is fine.

I am not sure on that camcorder what the delay is on the output. USUALLY the down sampled to SD will be delayed. so at first glance using the Component HD as the signal would work best.

You should look a decent quailtiy Balun system probably from Intellix

Intelix.com - Audio-Visual Baluns


I would NOT use the digital audio part of the balun component system since this is going to add an other complexity and IMO you don't need it at this point

If you don't have some sort of video mixer for real time mixing then you are going to need to bring in the video and then overlay the "lower thirds" as they are called.

Your best bet IMO is to use the audio audio delay after you have the lower thirds integrated, and from that point on you will have a signal that should be in sync, to distrubute to the two locations

I do think that you need to check the Projector If the projector supports VGA or YUV it is very liikely these days to support either directly or with internal scaling an HD component analog signal

Sharyn

 

[museav]

The camera we are going to use for the foreseeable future (because we already own it) is this JVC.

That could affect any 'robotic' aspect as you would have to find a pan/tilt compatible with that camera, which may not be that difficult, but I don't think that model supports remote lens control other than from the little handheld IR remote that comes with it, no LANC control or anything like that. So remote zoom and focus could be a problem.

Question 1: What baluns will I need? We want the one on the sending end to have maybe 8 outputs for possible future expansion.

To me a balun is a passive device and what you probably want are active interfaces. What that should be relates to your question #3.

Question 2: How do I deal with the audio? My thought is to come out of an aux on the console and go into the camera, then from there into the balun. I am guessing that audio sync will be an issue, no matter what. The Felston unit seems like the way to go on that, but where would it come into play? I'm thinking that it won't really work to have just one before the first balun.

First, think of it that you are using the camcorder as a camera and not as a camcorder, thus it is not related to audio, the exception possibly being if you use the HDMI output since you that would also carry the audio.

The Felston unit is S/PDIF in and out which doesn't seem to match any of the rest of the audio system. The analog video outputs of the camcorder will probably have some latency but you are not doing any processing or manipulation of the video after that until you get to the other room so the video latency compared to the audio may not be a major issue.

Question 3: In regards to the previous questions, which output on the camera should be used, HDMI, Component, or USB?

Well, what is it running into on the other end? USB is not a video output but whether you run HDMI, component or composite probably greatly depends on what the receiving device accepts.

If you run HDMI then you probably would have to run the audio into the camera so that it can be merged into the HDMI signal. If you run component I might use RGBHV/VGA devices, using HD15 to 5 BNC breakout cables and running the component video on the R, G and B cables. I suggest that primarily because it seems that most component to CAT5 interfaces assume S/PDIF digital audio while the RGBHV/VGA units would let you run analog audio direct from the main room audio console.

Along with Intelix I would look at Magenta Research, Extron and FSR for the interfaces and CAT5 distribution devices.

EDIT: I just had another thought that will likely throw a wrench into things, but I don't want it to take away from the overall goal of the questions. Would it be possible, to just send the signal just to the second auditorium, do the Propresenter thing with it there, and then send it out again to the other locations? I know this isn't the ideal way to do this, but we don't have a broadcast studio, bor the money for one!

That should be no problem, just point-to-point via CAT5 from the main room into the second room system and then DA the computer output with one output of the DA going to the projector (or wherever it currently goes) and the other output feeding a CAT5 system.

 

[GreyWyvern]

I never needed ‘robotic’ pan and tilt, only zoom. I originally thought that we would be getting a camera that would be mounted up higher on the wall behind the booth. I now know that we are just going to use the camera we already have that is used for recording an earlier service, among other things, and just move it into the main room for the service we need a feed from. I don’t necessarily agree with this for several reasons aside from the fact that I really don’t like the camera, but we are still in the experimental stages of this project. We want to “try it” to see if it will work before buying expensive equipment, which I understand.

I am concerned about the audio in the second room because the video feed needs to go straight into the Mac, while the audio is going straight into the console. The projector in the room is HD capable, but I said we are not running HD because the Mac is not HD, as far as I know. I admittedly do not know much about VGA cables. Are there different types needed? There is only one output on the Extron that is labeled RGB and Y, B-Y, R-Y. I know that Y, B-Y, R-Y is component and therefore HD capable. Can just any old VGA cable carry HD? If so, and the Mac is HD, then we could show HD in there. We would just have to change the cable from the Mac from RGB to Component, right?

Like I said, the idea is to feed the video into the Mac. ProPresenter has a live video feature that allows you to put a live image on the screen with one click of the mouse. We would use that feature, so that we could put the message points at the bottom of the screen. I know that this is not the ideal way to do this, but as I said before, Church=Limited Funds. My concern with this approach is whether or not there is a balun with an output that the computer could take, USB or Firewire, and also if the computer will recognize it as an external camera. If not, we will have to figure out something else out.

Also, the HV in RGBHV is Horizontal and Vertical, right?

Thanks again for all the help and links.

Dave

 

[Studio]

For a very simple solution for the nursery feed, have you thought about just using a coax modulator? Assuming you can get both the video and audio to RCA, you could just send it all down one line of coax.

It's called an old VCR.

 

[GreyWyvern]

I am resurrecting this thread to ask a few more simple (hopefully) questions. I am going to try to be as basic as possible to keep things simple. This is still regarding the same project, but we are not doing much yet. We are just going to do a simple setup to demonstrate/test how this is going to work.

The HDTV on the receiving end will use the HDMI input. Audio will be fed into the camera and be sent out with the video via the camera's HDMI output. There is Cat5e cable running between the rooms that will be used to get the signal from one room to the other. What baluns do I need to do this?

Hope that is simple enough.

Dave

 

[ruinexplorer]

You'd be looking for something like this from Gefen.

 

[museav]

There is Cat5e cable running between the rooms that will be used to get the signal from one room to the other.

Just to be clear, if the connectivity passes through switchers, routers, etc. it will not work, the path has to be a direct physical connection and not through a data network.

 

[ruinexplorer]

Great point. People often forget this for lighting as well. When dealing with routers/switchers or other network gear, they are using an Ethernet protocol. The baluns are not converting a video signal to this protocol and would result in the disruption of your signal.