Senior Year Project - Designing a Facility
- Thread starterJustinTech
- Start date
Coming in a little late, but when you say this is a Senior Project is it for a class? If so, we are trying to keep that clearly identified.
When you say you are "designing" a facility, what do you mean? A complete facility design takes numerous professionals. Even if you get all the theatrical aspects what about architectural, structural, mechanical, electrical, life safety and other building systems? Those are just as much an integral part of the venue as rigging, lights, sound, etc.
As others have said, maybe you should approach this in the way professionals would on a real project. It stands out to me that you have identified things like the seating capacity, where the FOH mix position will be, how the seating is arranged, having an orchestra pit, etc. but have not identified the market, users, types of performances, budget, etc. that would be the basis for such decisions. That is backward from how it is done. Before you design anything you should have a good definition of the goals and vision for the venue. Why it is needed? What is needed? Who will run it and use it? What is the budget? What codes, ordinances, special considerations, etc. may apply? This initial step in the design process (although it may follow a market analysis or feasibility study) is typically called a Program or Needs Analysis Phase and is the first step in the design process as it forms the basis for everything that comes after.
Aspects such as the shape and topography of the site, local restrictions on height, access and setback requirements, parking requirements, etc. can also be major factors in the size, shape and layout of the building. Thus these factor into the next step of developing a general conceptual design for the facility. How big is it? What shape can the overall building take? How do you conceptually support the Program previously developed? What are the spaces involved and how should they relate? It may be acceptable for your project to ignore some of these factors but in real projects these are significant considerations that have to be addressed before even considering many of the other decisions.
As an example, I've been talking to a local group about a project that sounds similar, albeit maybe a bit smaller, and they have had numerous design professionals working on the basic building and site layout, site utilities, etc. for some time just to make sure it was even a viable project before they involved any theatre or tech systems consultants. And in this case the site is definitely driving numerous aspects of the facility design, as is the funding.
The point is that talking about details is sort of putting the cart before the horse without first having any well developed and defined basis for any discussion. I would start with that then funnel down into the details.
When you say you are "designing" a facility, what do you mean? A complete facility design takes numerous professionals. Even if you get all the theatrical aspects what about architectural, structural, mechanical, electrical, life safety and other building systems? Those are just as much an integral part of the venue as rigging, lights, sound, etc.
As others have said, maybe you should approach this in the way professionals would on a real project. It stands out to me that you have identified things like the seating capacity, where the FOH mix position will be, how the seating is arranged, having an orchestra pit, etc. but have not identified the market, users, types of performances, budget, etc. that would be the basis for such decisions. That is backward from how it is done. Before you design anything you should have a good definition of the goals and vision for the venue. Why it is needed? What is needed? Who will run it and use it? What is the budget? What codes, ordinances, special considerations, etc. may apply? This initial step in the design process (although it may follow a market analysis or feasibility study) is typically called a Program or Needs Analysis Phase and is the first step in the design process as it forms the basis for everything that comes after.
Aspects such as the shape and topography of the site, local restrictions on height, access and setback requirements, parking requirements, etc. can also be major factors in the size, shape and layout of the building. Thus these factor into the next step of developing a general conceptual design for the facility. How big is it? What shape can the overall building take? How do you conceptually support the Program previously developed? What are the spaces involved and how should they relate? It may be acceptable for your project to ignore some of these factors but in real projects these are significant considerations that have to be addressed before even considering many of the other decisions.
As an example, I've been talking to a local group about a project that sounds similar, albeit maybe a bit smaller, and they have had numerous design professionals working on the basic building and site layout, site utilities, etc. for some time just to make sure it was even a viable project before they involved any theatre or tech systems consultants. And in this case the site is definitely driving numerous aspects of the facility design, as is the funding.
The point is that talking about details is sort of putting the cart before the horse without first having any well developed and defined basis for any discussion. I would start with that then funnel down into the details.
I have to admit, it sounds like a fun project, but I'm with Brad on this. It's hard to make it realistic. Our facility is one year old, and fits into a lot of your constraints, but there are tons of hidden problems. The reason those problems exist is not because they were completely unforeseen, but because of money. It's easy to put down on paper a really awesome theatre with really awesome equipment, but if you get someone crunching numbers on it, they'll laugh you out of the room. There's no motivation to you as a designer to make it an efficient design, just effective.
Plus, you get structural, electrical, and civil engineers, building inspectors, and architects involved, and everything changes. Your sprung floors and gala pit lift looks amazing on paper, but on site it's impossible to build because you're on top of a marsh and those things require a deeper foundation that's simply impossible to dig deeper into.
I don't mean to deter you on your project, but the prospect of a dream facility probably isn't a good representation of your abilities as a theatrical consultant. The dream facilities of the world are actual PITA's. We have one in Madison that's backed by an incredibly rich owner, but each time the contractors do something and complete the project, the owner finds another small problem (ie. five seats out of three thousand are obstructed views) and has the contractors rip the roof apart and rebuild the entire house. This is a real project where that has happened. The exact numbers on the seating are off, but I remember our contractors telling us about that project and that particular problem. When you have seemingly infinite funds, you have a seemingly infinite number of problems to solve. I mean, it's great for the contractors because they've had crews on site their for the last decade, but the venue gets used about a dozen times a year as a result.
The problem with your project is simple economics. Private enterprise can only succeed when there's motivation to make a profit. If you can only generalize your design based on "This costs a lot more than that, but the benefit is worth it," you will never get hired as a theatrical consultant. You'll also not be able to justly show your competence to your professors. You'll be able to show off your ability to spend money, but that's about it. I'd strongly advise you reframe your idea for your project before moving on.
Maybe you can find a real theatre with real problems to be solved. You may not actually need to spend any money, but get the wheels moving on a real project and get real contractors to provide real quotes. You could put a plan in place that the venue could actually consider as a real capital project to pursue as donor funds become available. Anyone can put together a shopping list if they have an undefined amount of funds to spend, but it takes someone truly skilled to pull a rabbit out of a hat with real constraints as to the size of the hat and method of making the rabbit appear.
Plus, you get structural, electrical, and civil engineers, building inspectors, and architects involved, and everything changes. Your sprung floors and gala pit lift looks amazing on paper, but on site it's impossible to build because you're on top of a marsh and those things require a deeper foundation that's simply impossible to dig deeper into.
I don't mean to deter you on your project, but the prospect of a dream facility probably isn't a good representation of your abilities as a theatrical consultant. The dream facilities of the world are actual PITA's. We have one in Madison that's backed by an incredibly rich owner, but each time the contractors do something and complete the project, the owner finds another small problem (ie. five seats out of three thousand are obstructed views) and has the contractors rip the roof apart and rebuild the entire house. This is a real project where that has happened. The exact numbers on the seating are off, but I remember our contractors telling us about that project and that particular problem. When you have seemingly infinite funds, you have a seemingly infinite number of problems to solve. I mean, it's great for the contractors because they've had crews on site their for the last decade, but the venue gets used about a dozen times a year as a result.
The problem with your project is simple economics. Private enterprise can only succeed when there's motivation to make a profit. If you can only generalize your design based on "This costs a lot more than that, but the benefit is worth it," you will never get hired as a theatrical consultant. You'll also not be able to justly show your competence to your professors. You'll be able to show off your ability to spend money, but that's about it. I'd strongly advise you reframe your idea for your project before moving on.
Maybe you can find a real theatre with real problems to be solved. You may not actually need to spend any money, but get the wheels moving on a real project and get real contractors to provide real quotes. You could put a plan in place that the venue could actually consider as a real capital project to pursue as donor funds become available. Anyone can put together a shopping list if they have an undefined amount of funds to spend, but it takes someone truly skilled to pull a rabbit out of a hat with real constraints as to the size of the hat and method of making the rabbit appear.
I think that is the very idea being discussed. One aspect deals with defining the dream, another with reconciling the dream with reality (or turning the dream into reality if you prefer).
On the first, is the dream two sloped seating areas or good sightlines and comfort for the patrons? Is your vision having an orchestra pit or rather supporting certain events and performances? Being able to translate the underlying goals that represent your vision is critical to a successful result. Too often I see people skipping that and getting caught up in details, only to then be disappointed when others do not understand their dream or when they get a result that is exactly what was defined rather than the underlying more general vision.
On the second, what does it take to bring your dream to fruition? What basis is there for reconciling conflicts between the dream and reality? What basis are you providing for others to assist in helping turning your dream into reality, if a specific element is impractical what is there for anyone to use in developing potential alternatives or options? How does one know whether a pit is simply one solution to a more general need or so important that not having one makes the entire project impractical? How would someone assess whether some flat floor area with removable seating may be a viable alternative if a pit is impractical?
That is sort of why I was asking what was intended by designing a facility. Just picking answers is not design, design is developing solutions to particular problems and applications and that requires defining the problems and application first. This is a problem I run into all the time, clients that jump right into specifics without defining or sharing the overall vision and goals for the project. This not only limits the potential value of any other parties, it also creates an environment where those specifics rather than more general goals become the only definition for a successful result. To stick with the pit example, saying you want a pit is one thing but identifying the reasons behind needing that desire may provide insight into not only the pit itself but also other related considerations. If you focus on just the actual pit rather than the underlying needs you may get nothing or miss some other related aspects that might have led to a more successful implementation of your vision.
I don't believe this is an Architecture or Engineering project, so perhaps such areas are best left alone or to others with the focus being on defining the vision in a manner that would allow those parties to best perform their work and result in the dream being fulfilled to the extent possible. If you wanted to get into those design areas, which in reality would have to be addressed by properly qualified and licensed professionals, then having a good definition of the project goals and vision will be invaluable anyways, so it would probably still be a good place to start.
As an aside, an important aspect of facility design is that numerous aspects do have to be handled by appropriately experienced, trained and certified professionals. What many people do not understand is that those design professionals are liable for their work, in the end the work they generate and the related results are their responsibility. Thus while there are certainly many areas of facility design that can be defined as desired, there are also many areas where codes, ordinances, Standards, 'industry standard practice, etc. apply that the designers have to be able to design as they see fit. This is where the above discussion can be so important, the facility designers may need the liberty to deviate from details and specifics dictated to them but can still try to support the dream or vision if that is adequately defined.
JustinTech
Member
As of for class. No. Not persay, it's a final project that our Major Advisor...oversees. Many direct a show, or do a full portfolio type of thing. This is actually not the 'real' project I am going for, just a preliminary project.
Yes this is a BASIC design for a "Dream" Theatre. This being said, I will take into account, most real aspects that I know of...seeing as prior to theatre I planned on architecture field, I know some basics but nothing substantial.
The Real Project is actually after this gets planned. And is primarly for the shop section...my project, Stock it. I will find an average budget that a theatre in my demographic area would have for stocking the shop and basics on props/costumes and go with it. This includes lighting, sound, mics, basic set pieces, et cetera.
This is not the design phase I am in...this is for exactly what is happening. To bring up any snags I have in my thinking...any things I should think about, and any ideas for the design phase when I get there.
When going with a demographic, I am using Kirksville, MO, as my area. 14k people...small town, with outlaying farmland. Target age group is 18-30, but shows will be chosen to be family shows, grandkids to grandparents appropriate. Parking, accessibility, and such will be chosen once I find a "location" to build. As far as specs go, I am designing primarly off of my community theatre at Quincy, IL. Using what I know about the two locations to make something... "real".
Thanks for all thoughts, keep up discussion if you wish I will be on and take notes when I can.
Justin W. Crouch
Yes this is a BASIC design for a "Dream" Theatre. This being said, I will take into account, most real aspects that I know of...seeing as prior to theatre I planned on architecture field, I know some basics but nothing substantial.
The Real Project is actually after this gets planned. And is primarly for the shop section...my project, Stock it. I will find an average budget that a theatre in my demographic area would have for stocking the shop and basics on props/costumes and go with it. This includes lighting, sound, mics, basic set pieces, et cetera.
This is not the design phase I am in...this is for exactly what is happening. To bring up any snags I have in my thinking...any things I should think about, and any ideas for the design phase when I get there.
When going with a demographic, I am using Kirksville, MO, as my area. 14k people...small town, with outlaying farmland. Target age group is 18-30, but shows will be chosen to be family shows, grandkids to grandparents appropriate. Parking, accessibility, and such will be chosen once I find a "location" to build. As far as specs go, I am designing primarly off of my community theatre at Quincy, IL. Using what I know about the two locations to make something... "real".
Thanks for all thoughts, keep up discussion if you wish I will be on and take notes when I can.
Justin W. Crouch
Brad has brought up some excellent points, and most of us who have been on the pro side of things would agree.
I guess I would raise a couple of additional items to consider:
I know this is a academic project, but I feel strongly that someone learning needs to learn how to do it properly. Especially if this is again from an academic standpoint.
As Brad mentioned, the program phase is the most important. I have worked with a number of designers and usually it is how they handle this side of the task that either wins or looses them the business. Design is all about market needs and limitations and tradeoffs, so IMHO the key here is to learn how this is balanced... SO it is not just based on the demographics of the community, it is really (if done properly) a process where the different users all work thru a facilitated process where the requirements and nice to have, and dreams are put together
Then there is a facilitated process where the trade offs are worked out and the facilitator has a feel for how this is going to impact design
For instance if one group insists that they need to have the ability to show general released movies then the design of the booth needs to accommodate that
If the major use is for a symphony orchestra then they have a very different type of stage setup, if it is for a theater, then again different, if it needs to be shared say by symphony, theater, debate performances, and say lectures that that needs to be also taken into account
Basically the whole program process is where the users as a group work out the compromises so that the design process can then start.
So you could actually go thru this process OR you could simulate it but you need to show the user groups their requirments and the tradeoffs etc
From there the theater design process and the general architecture and the structural design starts to take off. Then you have the process of cost estimates to see if it will meet the budget and then the iteration of what gets altered to meet the budget. Rarely if ever do you have a open checkbook where the requirments to design operates on the what ever it takes
Anyway probably more than you bargained for but you have to remember that a lot of the folks on this forum are experienced professionals so you tend to get an approach that is more based in reality than academics
Sharyn
I guess I would raise a couple of additional items to consider:
I know this is a academic project, but I feel strongly that someone learning needs to learn how to do it properly. Especially if this is again from an academic standpoint.
As Brad mentioned, the program phase is the most important. I have worked with a number of designers and usually it is how they handle this side of the task that either wins or looses them the business. Design is all about market needs and limitations and tradeoffs, so IMHO the key here is to learn how this is balanced... SO it is not just based on the demographics of the community, it is really (if done properly) a process where the different users all work thru a facilitated process where the requirements and nice to have, and dreams are put together
Then there is a facilitated process where the trade offs are worked out and the facilitator has a feel for how this is going to impact design
For instance if one group insists that they need to have the ability to show general released movies then the design of the booth needs to accommodate that
If the major use is for a symphony orchestra then they have a very different type of stage setup, if it is for a theater, then again different, if it needs to be shared say by symphony, theater, debate performances, and say lectures that that needs to be also taken into account
Basically the whole program process is where the users as a group work out the compromises so that the design process can then start.
So you could actually go thru this process OR you could simulate it but you need to show the user groups their requirments and the tradeoffs etc
From there the theater design process and the general architecture and the structural design starts to take off. Then you have the process of cost estimates to see if it will meet the budget and then the iteration of what gets altered to meet the budget. Rarely if ever do you have a open checkbook where the requirments to design operates on the what ever it takes
Anyway probably more than you bargained for but you have to remember that a lot of the folks on this forum are experienced professionals so you tend to get an approach that is more based in reality than academics
Sharyn
Don't get us wrong. Brad and Sharyn and I aren't trying to kill any dreams. What we're aiming to do is put the idea of designing a facility in perspective. There are a lot of factors to consider in designing a facility, and unless you're actually doing it, it's difficult to simulate. For the educational purpose of your project, we just want to help you, in whichever way possible, to prove to your professors that you're ready to enter the professional world with their confidence in you and with that institution's stamp of approval on your diploma.
Dreaming only does accomplishes that if you're a theology or philosophy student. So when you say you want to design a facility with undefined constraints, that won't fulfill the purpose of a capstone project. Now if you can define those constraints, which it seems like you're at least somewhat prepared to do, then that's a start. I hesitate to say I fully understand where you're taking this though. Design a dream facility, then stock it's scene shop? A lot of theatres don't know everything they need until they actually need it -- until a group walks in the door and says, "I need a way to make it snow on stage" and "I need to plug 60A 2P&G connectors in somewhere for these wash lights."
As you frame the goal of your project, I ask you this: When will you know that you've been successful? How do you measure success? Is success putting together a good shopping list for a scene shop? How will you know if it's complete? How do you test whether you've done an excellent job or if you've botched it up? Or is success simply proving your a capable {insert job title here}? If so, would this project do that for you?
Before you dive into designing a dream facility and finding what tools to put in the shop you may want to establish a measure for the completion of your project as well as the quality at which you've performed your work.
Dreaming only does accomplishes that if you're a theology or philosophy student. So when you say you want to design a facility with undefined constraints, that won't fulfill the purpose of a capstone project. Now if you can define those constraints, which it seems like you're at least somewhat prepared to do, then that's a start. I hesitate to say I fully understand where you're taking this though. Design a dream facility, then stock it's scene shop? A lot of theatres don't know everything they need until they actually need it -- until a group walks in the door and says, "I need a way to make it snow on stage" and "I need to plug 60A 2P&G connectors in somewhere for these wash lights."
As you frame the goal of your project, I ask you this: When will you know that you've been successful? How do you measure success? Is success putting together a good shopping list for a scene shop? How will you know if it's complete? How do you test whether you've done an excellent job or if you've botched it up? Or is success simply proving your a capable {insert job title here}? If so, would this project do that for you?
Before you dive into designing a dream facility and finding what tools to put in the shop you may want to establish a measure for the completion of your project as well as the quality at which you've performed your work.
I have several Dream Theater (Dream Theater - The Official Site) CDs in my collection!
I believe that what have all been suggesting is that before making any decision about the physical facility you need to define what the facility needs to be and do on a more general basis. What are the needs of the community? Who would be using this venue and for what? Just a few minutes on the Internet finds that Kirksville has an arts association including a community theater company, the Curtain Call Theatre Company, that is looking for a permanent home. Is this potential home for them or for a competing community theatre group in a town of 17,000? How does the seating capacity you noted relate to the average audience of over 1,000 they note? How might this venue relate to the theatre program and facilities at Truman State or to the existing community orchestra and chorus? Might this facility be used by private groups for events and meetings? All of these factors could help define the potential needs for the venue as well as the potential priorities of those needs.
After you have an idea who the users are and what their needs are, then you might have to look at things like whether it is more cost effective to build from scratch or might it make more sense to adapt an existing space, an approach many community theaters take? What staffing would be required? Would being near restaurants or certain other types of businesses generate greater attendance and thus perhaps factor into selecting a location? At some point, there has to be a cost analysis to see if the venue as envisioned is a viable entity, which would include factoring the costs for the physical property, staff, operation, insurance, taxes, maintenance, etc. as well as projected income. What would it take to operate in the black? Will the resident community theater use alone support the facility defined or might other uses that generate additional income need to be incorporated? Might some uses or components have to be cut to make the facility financially viable? This is the often unpleasant aspect of a project where one has to determine what parts of the 'dream' can actually be supported and how. It is also as far as many projects get.
This is the process and type of information usually required to define the goals and requirements for a venue. Even if you focus just on the Shop and tech system stock, you would still need some basis for those aspects. You could design the world's best shop but might it not only be more than required for the application but also beyond the ability of the venue and users to support it?
Doing all the work necessary to get to the point of actually designing the facility or components of it would be rather ambitious for a school project and for a purely academic exercise may not be practical. However, whether based on a real applictaion or assumed information, I believe you still need to first define factors such as the type of events and performances to be supported, the users, the hours of use, etc. and the related expectations of the facility. Details like needing to be able to work in the Shop concurrent with an event taking place in the Auditorium or needing to address multiple users or whether there will be a full time Tech Director can have a major impact on the facility design and cost. Those are the type of more general, functional issues that need to be identified before getting into how the facility will support them.
Can I take this back a few steps and ask a couple questions? First off, what is your major? Are you a designer? A technician? Actor? Director? How/why is this project going to cap off your college career?
You talk about designing a theatre and then stocking it's scene shop and technical areas. Not all theatres have a scene shop or even own more than a few odds and ends as the shows that come through are bringing all their own gear. Since I work at a theatre that does build and produce every show I can say that we stock our scene shop based on the needs of the current shows.
Now, if your goal after graduation is to work for a theatre design firm like Fisher-Dachs Assoc. then maybe a project like the one you describe makes sense. On the other hand, if you are studying design or tech then it would seem to me like a more practical application of the skills you are learning would be a more prudent choice of a project. That may be finding a theatre company that will let you design a show or something along those lines that will really test and showcase everything that you have learned in school.
Almost every theatre person wants to design their own dream facility, but how much education will you get out of the purely hypothetical?
You talk about designing a theatre and then stocking it's scene shop and technical areas. Not all theatres have a scene shop or even own more than a few odds and ends as the shows that come through are bringing all their own gear. Since I work at a theatre that does build and produce every show I can say that we stock our scene shop based on the needs of the current shows.
Now, if your goal after graduation is to work for a theatre design firm like Fisher-Dachs Assoc. then maybe a project like the one you describe makes sense. On the other hand, if you are studying design or tech then it would seem to me like a more practical application of the skills you are learning would be a more prudent choice of a project. That may be finding a theatre company that will let you design a show or something along those lines that will really test and showcase everything that you have learned in school.
Almost every theatre person wants to design their own dream facility, but how much education will you get out of the purely hypothetical?
If you could build your ideal theatre...
I know many people get to design a 'dream theatre' for school and some (like myself) experience venues with poor design, so I'd like some input: If you could design your ideal theatre what would it be (proscenium, thrust, round, black box, etc) and what would you include in the build? Would you permanently install traps, turn table, tension grid, pipe grid and catwalks, box booms, balcony, production spaces - or would you do something different (and what)? What accouterments do you currently have/love or what do you wish you had? What does your current space have that is more useless than useful? Any additional ideas, thoughts or concepts? Along with our administrative staff, I may be given the opportunity in the near future to interview consultants and firms for a new project - so I'd like input from as many sources as possible to help jog my memory (and fill in my list).
I know many people get to design a 'dream theatre' for school and some (like myself) experience venues with poor design, so I'd like some input: If you could design your ideal theatre what would it be (proscenium, thrust, round, black box, etc) and what would you include in the build? Would you permanently install traps, turn table, tension grid, pipe grid and catwalks, box booms, balcony, production spaces - or would you do something different (and what)? What accouterments do you currently have/love or what do you wish you had? What does your current space have that is more useless than useful? Any additional ideas, thoughts or concepts? Along with our administrative staff, I may be given the opportunity in the near future to interview consultants and firms for a new project - so I'd like input from as many sources as possible to help jog my memory (and fill in my list).
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Re: If you could build your ideal theatre...
This is also when you have parties performing work such as investigating site conditions, reviewing applicable codes, assessing existing parking, mechanical, electrical and other provisions and services.
Once the basis for design is known then you can start to work your way down into more detailed aspects of the possible solutions, always keeping in mind the "why" of what you do as well as the "what". This is where you may start defining the stage configuration(s), approach to rigging, conceptual seating and room layout, etc. This is also when it is important to have all the relevant parties involved as a decision here without input from all parties can come back to haunt you later.
This is not to say that someone defining any specific components, equipment, etc. may not occur early in the project, but these are best approached when they can be assessed as to how they fit the overall vision. One of the worst things as a designer is to have some parties defining specifics that conflict with the general goals defined.
Read through some of the previous posts. You really should have a good understanding of the underlying goals, expectations and limitations before deciding on some of the aspects you noted. When I first start on a project it is not by asking the Client what kind of stage arrangement they want or if a turntable or tension grid is desired. It is by asking how they envision using the facility, what kinds of performances, events and functions they see wanting to support and so on. It is finding out what they envision as defining a successful result. It is also trying to differentiate needs from desires from wishful thinking so that if elements do have to be cut or deferred then you can do so logically.
This is also when you have parties performing work such as investigating site conditions, reviewing applicable codes, assessing existing parking, mechanical, electrical and other provisions and services.
Once the basis for design is known then you can start to work your way down into more detailed aspects of the possible solutions, always keeping in mind the "why" of what you do as well as the "what". This is where you may start defining the stage configuration(s), approach to rigging, conceptual seating and room layout, etc. This is also when it is important to have all the relevant parties involved as a decision here without input from all parties can come back to haunt you later.
This is not to say that someone defining any specific components, equipment, etc. may not occur early in the project, but these are best approached when they can be assessed as to how they fit the overall vision. One of the worst things as a designer is to have some parties defining specifics that conflict with the general goals defined.
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