Small theatre, big sound problems

[Erin M.]

I work at a small private school, and we need to make some quick upgrades to our sound system. Here is the current set-up for reference:

• 2 hanging condenser mics, cheap, very little amplification
• CFX16 MKII mixer in the sound & lighting booth
• podium mixer (Yamaha MG102C) with iPod, CD player, and computer routed through it
• FRS MAS-3100 switcher (video scaler w/audio support) in the booth
• 3, AKG C417L wireless vocal condenser mics w/body packs, each married to SR450 stationary receivers
• Fender Passport 500 Pro (portable PA system)
• 2 mic stands and various stand-alone mics: 1) cheap RadioShack omnidirectional dynamic mic, 2) Shure PG58, 3) Audiotechnica P48, 4) Sennheiser e835
• A handheld wireless (Shure SM58) that we use for EVERYTHING...routed through the mixer in the booth. This is by far the loudest, clearest mic we have.
• Everything attached to our podium mixer is routed through a single mic channel; 2 out of the other four work, now that cables have been replaced.

Known issues:

• Hanging mics don't seem to work at all, still working on this....
• I can run the lap mics through the board in the booth, but right now I only have three lap mics...and only four available inputs.
• I have two more inputs left on the podium board, but every time I have tried to test the lap mics using these inputs, the feedback is horrendous....
• All of our stationary receivers for the lap mics are housed in the same portable box, because we use it outside of our main building 1x/week. As a result, I don't even know if I could use the podium inputs for additional wireless mics, even if I had them on hand.
• When they built the auditorium, they decided to house the heating and cooling blower units there, as well...so every time they turn on, the entire ceiling vibrates. Nothing I can do about that, but it kills sound, overall.

What are my options? Right now, I'm working with middle-school aged actors. Even with LOTS of prompting, some of their voices are small, changing, etc. and require help via equipment. I have a $2000 budget, and I want to spend it wisely. (I already know that I will need to replace at least 2 XLR cables, which shouldn't be costly...but you know how things can add up.)

Floor mics might be a good option...*if* I have an reliable input and *if* they don't end up in another feedback loop with the lap mics or hanging mics. I can buy another lap mic, then I have four for leads, but that won't cover all of the other actors that I can't hear.

*sigh* Any suggestions are MORE than welcome.

 

[DaveySimps]

We could use some more info in order to be able to help you more. What is the size and structure of the Auditorium (how many seats? / dimensions of the room?)? Are the Fender Passport speakers your only speakers for the space? If not, what kind of speakers and amplifiers do you have, and how are they configured? By "lap mics" I am assuming you're referring to the AKG wireless "lav" / lavailer mics? How big is the stage / performance space? How are the existing hanging mics configured (where are they located on sage? How high are the off of the stage floor?)

With your $2000 budget, I would not get caught up in the battle of purchasing more wireless mics. That is just not going to get you anywhere on that budget. For startes, getting decent hanging mics working would be a benefit. Keep in mind that, no matter how good of a sound system you have, if your student performers do not project well, you will have a difficult time getting enough gain before feedback with the hanging or floor mics.

Having a small audio snake or cable and conduit installed so that you can properly access the additional channels in the control booth would be something I would suggest looking into.

If your only speakers are the Fender Passport, you might want to start there. We will have to see what your response is to the questions I posed earlier before we can say more about those.

~Dave

 

[themuzicman]

For starters, is phantom power turned on going to your hanging mics? I'm never a huge proponent of floor mics unless you also want floor noises such as walking...

 

[Erin M.]

Thanks for your response, Dave. The auditorium seats 218. The room is basically a trapezoid: 40' long in the front, 55' long at the back of the house, approx. 40' deep and 20-25' tall (slight incline in the ceiling). The stage dimensions are approx. 36' long (50' including the wings), 15' deep--12' in front of rear curtain...10' if the built in steps/risers are on the floor--, and 20' high (including the space above the border curtains). It's basically a proscenium stage, but with extremely limited backstage and wing space.

The Fender Passport speakers aren't the only speakers for the space. There are two small monitors hiding between our two border curtains and mounted to the ceiling. There are two more speakers facing outward, just above the stage on the proscenium arch, also JBL. I'm honestly not sure what they are...sorry. I just came into this position, and I haven't yet been able to dig up any documentation on the speakers that were installed...but they look a bit like an older JBL model...logo in the center...maybe 2-way PA speaker/monitors. I won't know unless/until I can make a few more phone calls. (...definite newbie, here.)

FINALLY got the hanging mics up and running today after a bit of tweaking. Again, I'm guessing that they may be Crowns...something similar to the CM30 condenser mics. They are about 12' apart at center stage left and right, about 6' or so above the stage. I can reach up and touch one, and most of the actors are on the shorter side...ages 14 and under.
We have a Crown ce1000 amp, hooked up to the mains. There is also an Alesis RA-100 on the rack, but I haven't been able to figure out what is hooked into it, yet.

(We had several major power outages which affected the whole sound system, and then someone decided to mess with the board in the booth as well.) I'll probably have to retest and reset levels for everything. Your advice is helpful. I did a lot of testing this evening...still getting some monitor hum, but I haven't had too many problems with feedback, so far.
Thank you, I did mean lavalier mics...the guy that purchased them a few years ago labeled everything with "Lap 1, 2, 3," etc.

Good point about the extra audio snake and conduit. I'll look into that.

After a meeting this afternoon with other faculty, we're now looking at long- and short-term options. They want to know what we can do in about 3 weeks or less, as well as recommendations for expansion. I'm not necessarily limited to the $2000 after all...something closer to $4500 sounded reasonable to everyone...but I also don't want to risk buying things that I can't use right now. The 3-week plan is definitely a priority. I placed a few phone calls to the original installer and a backup auditor. Hopefully we'll all be able to get things squared away ASAP.
Thanks again for all of your help.

Erin

 

[Erin M.]

For starters, is phantom power turned on going to your hanging mics? I'm never a huge proponent of floor mics unless you also want floor noises such as walking...

That was exactly the issue, @themuzicman. People touched things, unplugged things, reset levels...no fun. Floor mics aren't my favorite option either, for the same reason that you mention, but all of our equipment worked just fine last year and the "big guy" wasn't happy with the volume. A lot of that was actors needing to project, as usual in a small, middle-school setting. Some of it revolved around the limitations of the space and our current tech.

I can set up stand mics in front of the stage, buy new wireless lavalier mics, buy 2-3 floor mics, or ??? in addition to working on projection. They all have drawbacks. I just want to be armed with enough info. and opinions when I decide to spend someone else's money. Heh.

 

[DaveySimps]

It sounds like you are on the right track with the spacing of the hanging mics. Perhaps another pair upstage might help? It tennatively sounds like the main speakers are ok for the space, provided they are focused at the audience and not directly into a wall. You are not feeding the hanging mics into your overhead monitors are you? Do you have any sort of system processor or eq on the system? A knowledgeable person could work some magic with a good EQ on hanging or floor mics and get them to sound OK. If you could get a really knowledgeable sound person to come in and spend some time looking at the system, it sounds like they might be able to offer quite a bit of help just by adjusting what you have. Hopefully the original installer or your back up can offer you that service. If not, let us know where you are at, and I am certain members here can offer you a list of trusted vendors in your area.

Additional wireless systems will not necessarily help unless you can get everyone on their own mic, which is probably unrealistic with out going into the tens of thousands of dollars. If the "Big Guy" is expecting a close miced loud sound, that is not a realistic expectation in most situations like yours. Area micing (with hanging, floor, and / or mics on stands) is probably your best option based on what I read of your situation.


~Dave

 

[themuzicman]

I can set up stand mics in front of the stage, buy new wireless lavalier mics, buy 2-3 floor mics, or ??? in addition to working on projection. They all have drawbacks. I just want to be armed with enough info. and opinions when I decide to spend someone else's money. Heh.

Shotgun mics mounted on the floor or on stands focused in the appropriate direction will be a lot better than any PCC/PZM floor mic. I think the biggest thing your institution needs is to bring someone in who knows audio who can bang out a usable system in a matter of a few hours. Someone audio-intelligent should have a clear assessment of your needs (based on the info you have provided) in a matter of a few hours.

 

[museav]

There are two small monitors hiding between our two border curtains and mounted to the ceiling. There are two more speakers facing outward, just above the stage on the proscenium arch, also JBL. I'm honestly not sure what they are...sorry. I just came into this position, and I haven't yet been able to dig up any documentation on the speakers that were installed...but they look a bit like an older JBL model...logo in the center...maybe 2-way PA speaker/monitors. I won't know unless/until I can make a few more phone calls. (...definite newbie, here.)

It sounds like you might want to start your efforts with documenting what you have, how it is wired, etc. It's going to be difficult to address how to move forward effectively if you don't know where you are starting.

Another part of that may be determining the existing infrastructure such as the related power, conduit, boxes and so on. Any modifications or additions considered are either going to have to work within the infrastructure already in place or probably include and asociated changes to infrastructure as part of the work. For example, it may seem simple to plan on adding a few more mic inputs at the stage and get a larger mixer for the booth but what about the cabling involved and how does it get from the stage to the booth?

After a meeting this afternoon with other faculty, we're now looking at long- and short-term options. They want to know what we can do in about 3 weeks or less, as well as recommendations for expansion. I'm not necessarily limited to the $2000 after all...something closer to $4500 sounded reasonable to everyone...but I also don't want to risk buying things that I can't use right now. The 3-week plan is definitely a priority. I placed a few phone calls to the original installer and a backup auditor. Hopefully we'll all be able to get things squared away ASAP.

Lots of warning bells going off in seeing schedules and budgets being set before you have even been able to ascertain what you have and what may be involved. Do you watch those home improvement shows where they make all sorts of plans before checking out the details only to later have to radically alter their plans once they do check out the details? You probably want to avoid such situations so you may want to makes sure you have sufficient time to develop an accurate picture of the existing situtation and goals along with the time to develop a plan for what you want to do knowing that. SImialr with budget, you probably want to know what hidden or indirect costs may be involved before putting together a plan to fit a budget.


The feedback you noted could be due to a number of factors but some of it may be due to the speaker system and it may be critical to look at the speaker system and system processing in terms of being able to get sufficient gain before feedback. If you can't use the lav mics you already have without feedback problems then probably not much point in addressing adding more.

 

[Erin M.]

Thank you, thank you all around. I feel so much better knowing that I am justified in the concerns that I brought to the attention of my supervisors at our most recent meeting. I heard the warning bells and saw the red flags too, and I completely agree that this should not be some slap-dash affair to "fix" or upgrade the system in a matter of weeks. I just need to convince everyone else...which is the hard part. I have another meeting scheduled today; hopefully I can talk them into avoiding wasted funds.

As of yesterday, I've already managed to get the hanging mics up and running, eliminate feedback from the lavalier mics, and dig up the information for our original installer as well as a backup for auditing purposes. Now I finally have information on our mics, mains, and monitors in addition to the rest of our equipment...though the wiring is another thing altogether. We also had the infrastructure (power, wiring, space limitations) conversation yesterday, and I think that a HUGE part of the immediate plan will be learning to manage expectations/ideals vs. the reality of our current setup...and then working with a dedicated audio technician to create an improvement plan that works for both the school budget and the interests of our administrative team.

Again, I can't thank you enough for providing solid advice and helping me to make the right decisions.
Cheers!

Erin

 

[marmer]

I agree, asking someone to help with EQ is probably going to help a lot, although it's not likely to give you twice as much headroom. Depending on the position of your portable speakers and mics, you might also benefit from a little sound-absorbing material in certain areas, like maybe the stage side walls. Direct reflections back to the mics can sometimes be just as bad as poor speaker placement.

 

[DaveySimps]

Thank you, thank you all around. I feel so much better knowing that I am justified in the concerns that I brought to the attention of my supervisors at our most recent meeting. I heard the warning bells and saw the red flags too, and I completely agree that this should not be some slap-dash affair to "fix" or upgrade the system in a matter of weeks. I just need to convince everyone else...which is the hard part. I have another meeting scheduled today; hopefully I can talk them into avoiding wasted funds.

As of yesterday, I've already managed to get the hanging mics up and running, eliminate feedback from the lavalier mics, and dig up the information for our original installer as well as a backup for auditing purposes. Now I finally have information on our mics, mains, and monitors in addition to the rest of our equipment...though the wiring is another thing altogether. We also had the infrastructure (power, wiring, space limitations) conversation yesterday, and I think that a HUGE part of the immediate plan will be learning to manage expectations/ideals vs. the reality of our current setup...and then working with a dedicated audio technician to create an improvement plan that works for both the school budget and the interests of our administrative team.

Again, I can't thank you enough for providing solid advice and helping me to make the right decisions.
Cheers!

Erin

Good luck with everything! Don't hesitate to post again if we can provide any additional assistance.

~Dave