Sound System Design for New Black Box Theater

[DavidDaMonkey]

I've recently been given the opportunity to design the whole building sound system for a new black box theater space that will be used mostly for straight plays with Qlab playback of music and effects. The theater is located in an old nightclub (which is being gutted and stripped of all equipment) and will include a lobby w/ bar, dressing rooms, a green room, a scene shop, and a 99 seat variable seating (risers) black box theater. I will be speccing not only the system for the theater, but also com, lobby feed, dressing room feed, etc. I may be coming back here with more specific questions as I move along the process, but as I start I wanted to do a quick survey of anyone who has worked in a similar space. I'm wondering:

A) what sound system features have you seen or used that worked very well for the space

and

B) what details or features have you wished you had or have made you thought "If I had designed this system, I would have done this differently"


Thanks!
David

 

[museav]

On your first question, can you offer anything about the Black Box space other than it being 99 seats? Information such as dimensions and whether the variable seating means having to accommodate flexible stage and seating arrangements? Can you offer any insights regarding the envisioned use and users? Will the system operator typically be a 'house tech', experienced techs or inexperienced volunteers? Is there a budget?

On the second question, make sure what you design is code compliant, is coordinated with the other design team members (power, equipment and operator space, infrastructure, etc.), considers acoustics and that you do everything you can to make sure the system is installed properly by a qualified party. Those are all areas that often get lost in a focus on the equipment but that can have a great bearing on the final result. Also, remember that putting in additional conduit, boxes, etc. beyond that required is often a minimal cost during any initial work compared to what it could cost later on.

When you say you have "been given the opportunity to design the whole building sound system", is this, or at least similar work, something you have done before? Is this work being performed gratis or is it something for which you are being paid?

 

[BNBSound]

Make sure your paging system is well thought out. Make sure you don't hang speakers from sprinkler pipes. Make sure you install twice as much speaker as you think you'll need. Make sure your amps are twice as big again as that. Buy twice the mixer you think you'll need. Get a good system processor.

 

[DavidDaMonkey]

Thanks for the detailed response, museav! To give you a little context, I'm currently doing a lot of research into this project, and have been for a while now. When I originally posted this question I knew I didn't have the information I needed to answer many of the questions you asked. At that point I was simply looking for overall ideas and thoughts about things people had seen that worked well in other spaces that were similar to the information I gave. As I've been researching, I've been learning a ton and coming up with new more specific questions that I plan on asking here as the design and build goes along. This post was mostly meant to kick things off. I've answered your questions below in bold

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On your first question, can you offer anything about the Black Box space other than it being 99 seats? Information such as dimensions

Dimensions: roughly 51' x 41' x 18'

and whether the variable seating means having to accommodate flexible stage and seating arrangements?

Yes. As stated, the seating will consist of moveable chairs on moveable risers. The risers can be set up in any arrangement to create a stage of any shape. There will be a truss grid at roughly 16' that will span the entire room.

Can you offer any insights regarding the envisioned use and users?

Yes. As stated, it will be mostly straight plays with qlab playback of music and effects. I would like to expand its capabilities beyond that in case, for instance, they decide to use a band that needs to be recorded or lightly reinforced, or if body mics are ever needed. I'm trying to plan for growth.

Will the system operator typically be a 'house tech', experienced techs or inexperienced volunteers?

All of the above. The majority of the time, I will be designing their shows and the show will be run by either the SM (for shows with simple playback) or an experienced tech. I, or another house tech, will be present for any outside companies that need to use the system. On occasion, the house staff (artistic director, marketing, etc) may need to use the system for simple music playback, video presentation, or single mic @ podium sorts of gigs. This situation will be rare, and not encouraged, but I'm assuming it will happen. Any house staff that needs to use the system will be instructed in its use by me.

Is there a budget?

Yes, but I don't have a hard number yet and I don't feel comfortable sharing it here once I get. It wouldn't be hard for someone to look at my profile location and figure out pretty quickly what theater I'm talking about, and I don't want to be sharing information like that without the company's permission. When I start picking individual pieces of equipment, I might let you all know rough amounts for that section of the design, and if something is suggested that is out of the question, I will let you know. I do want to consider all options though so I know what is available.

On the second question, make sure what you design is code compliant, is coordinated with the other design team members (power, equipment and operator space, infrastructure, etc.), considers acoustics and that you do everything you can to make sure the system is installed properly by a qualified party. Those are all areas that often get lost in a focus on the equipment but that can have a great bearing on the final result.

I am in regular contact with the other members of the design team. I will probably be asking some code questions here as the project moves along. All contracted workers are qualified professionals.

Also, remember that putting in additional conduit, boxes, etc. beyond that required is often a minimal cost during any initial work compared to what it could cost later on.

Thanks! These are the sorts of tips I'm currently looking for.

When you say you have "been given the opportunity to design the whole building sound system", is this, or at least similar work, something you have done before?

I have done similar work. I have designed temporary systems in multiple spaces for shows I have designed, as well as interfaced with multiple house systems in my community as well as around the country as production audio on multiple tours. I have worked professionally as a designer and engineer for the past 6 years and I hold a BS in Audio Engineering Technology. I have helped out on whole system designs, but have never led one myself. I also am very familiar with the system at this company's current location. All that to say, I'm not going in to this completely blind.

I realize, however, that this is a very large undertaking and that there will be many aspects of it that I have not directly dealt with before. The company who owns the building is aware of my experience level. I am blessed to be surrounded by a community of knowledgeable and helpful professionals both in my local theater community and here online that will offer advice and guidance along the way.

Is this work being performed gratis or is it something for which you are being paid?

I am being paid, but I'm not sure of what importance that is for this discussion.

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Make sure your paging system is well thought out. Make sure you don't hang speakers from sprinkler pipes. Make sure you install twice as much speaker as you think you'll need. Make sure your amps are twice as big again as that. Buy twice the mixer you think you'll need. Get a good system processor.

Thanks for the tips BNBSound. I will be asking more in depth questions on all of those areas later on.

And are you sure I can't hang speakers from sprinkler pipes? Even if I account for the weight of the water in the pipe?

 

[DavidDaMonkey]

Currently I'm trying to figure out how I will run my signal everywhere. I am only planning on production audio at this point, and will get into comm and 70v paging/show feed later.

I essentially have 6 rooms in the building that I want to get signal to and from. I'm trying to put at least a 2x2 xlr panel in each of these rooms. It may be overkill, but I'm trying to run any extra cable at this point when it will be easier and cheaper so that we are prepared and flexible as we grow. Everything will meet back at the control room with XLR tails. There will also be 6 lines coming from amplifier outputs to go to NL2 connections at multiple spots in the theater. Some of the inputs and outputs will be mirrored at multiple places. None of the runs should be anymore than 200'. Here is my current breakdown of what will go where, grouped by general location in the building. This is all, of course, subject to change:

Theater: North wall low -- XLR F 1-8,
XLR M 1-4,
NL2 5-6
North wall high -- XLR F 17-20
XLR M 5-8
NL4 1-4
South wall low -- XLR F 9-16,
XLR M 1-4,
NL2 7-8
South wall high -- XLR F 17-20
XLR M 5-8
NL4 1-4

Dressing room 1 -- XLR F 21-22
XLR M 9-10
Dressing room 2 -- XLR F 23-24
XLR M 9-10
Green Room -- XLR F 21-24
XLR M 9-10
Scene Shop -- XLR F 25-26
XLR M 11-12

Lobby South Wall -- XLR F 29-32
XLR M 13-16
Lobby North Wall -- XLR F 29-32
XLR M 13-16

My two main questions are:

1) What is the best cable to use for the mic lines? These will all be brand new runs and therefore can be placed and run however is best -- many of the walls aren't even in place yet. I'm currently trying to decide between UTP (cheap, but I don't fully understand it's noise cancellation and phantom power properties), Belden 8451 or similar, or AES (more expensive, but more future proof). I will address the speaker cable later, as this post is long enough as it is.

2) What is the best way to deal with the mirrored ins and outs? Keep in mind that I don't intend for the mirrored inputs to be used simultaneously. Should everything come back to a single terminal block (or multiple terminal blocks) and get split off that way? Should I have locked but accessible terminal blocks throughout the building so that signals are merged later and I can save on cable?

 

[headcrab]

I have used Belden 5500FE for mic lines. It's similar to 9451, but the wires aren't tinned and the drain wire is on the outside of the foil shield.
I once needed to connect a few mics and lacking proper audio cable, I used some "dmx" cables I had made with 3-pin xlr connectors and STP cable. It worked: I got my signal and could not hear any amount of interference. The fact that the pairs are twisted is more important than the presence of a shield which isn't much use at audio frequencies. However, I wouldn't use it for permanent installations.

But if you have CAT5e (or higher) rated cable, pull some in. You might want it someday, and it's easier to pull in now than later.

 

[museav]

There could be multiple factors in the cable decisions. Paired or individual? Is it being run in conduit or exposed? If in conduit, is any of the conduit existing or limited in the size possible? If exposed, does any of the cabling need to be rated for in-wall, riser or plenum use? Is it a high RF environment or might it be run near power or lights? Do you want straight analog mic cable or AES compatible? This is the kind of information, along with knowing how to parallel mics, that a professional system designer should know and the kinds of decisions a professional system designer is usually paid to make.

If I were the system designer I would consider spreading out the inputs a bit more, a single set piece or similar could seem to make a good portion of the I/O difficult to access. In a flexible space I would also consider powered speakers, perhaps making multiple use of the tie lines for line level I/O or speaker feeds. And I'm not sure what you mean by the lines terminating with XLR tails, but I would terminate everything to either a device or a patchbay or patch panel.

You do realize that when "many of the walls aren't even in place yet" is really too late to be starting this effort? Cabling paths, conduit, boxes, power and space requirements, etc. should have all been determined and documented before construction ever started and every day that information is delayed is likely to make the related infrastructure more difficult and expensive to accommodate.

Another question, but are you both designing and installing the system or are you preparing Drawings and Specifications that will be competitively bid? The latter significantly affects the documentation required but may also require that you be able to support your equipment choices and assess possible substitutions. In that case it is not just defining that a certain product is acceptable but understanding and being able to express why it is appropriate and why another product offered might not be appropriate.

 

[tk2k]

I think what you're asking for here is a little beyond the scope of the unpaid internet.

A lot of us will be more than happy to give you feedback on your choices, but it sounds like you really need an architect to talk to about a lot of these things.

Generally: think about audio distribution from an abstract perspective. Dressing rooms should have some way of getting sound from the main system, the lobby should have a way of getting sound, etc. Think about Com distribution. With wireless becoming more standard this is less of an issue, but wireless coms are still quite expensive.

In terms of speakers level distrobution, there are a few ways to go. A lot of theaters do a 'patch system' where you run Speakon to many places, and run it back to a patch pannel. That way, if your speaker is located at point C, you can connect the amp to point C with a bridge cable. The upside is you don't have to run new speaker cable everytime you want to move a speaker to a new location. The downside is you'll need more powerful amps, because they are transmitting over a greater distance.

My advice to you would be to look at the kind of audio you plan on doing. You say qlab playback, is that stereo or 12 channel surround effects? If you want flexibility go for a patch system like I talked about, if you have a limited budget and a good house crew, a patch is less important. Again though, you'll probably save on labor in the long term by putting in a patch.

But all this gets VERY expensive very quickly. You should have your contrator run the conduit for you in order to make sure it's up to code. Make sure you run high enough gage wire to handle the amount of power you want to throw over the distance of the speakon cable.

Remember: If it's built in, make it good. You can always buy better speakers, a better console, etc down the road. Don't skimp on installed system quality. Run high quality cables and make sure everything is properly shielded. it'll be 10x more expensive if you have to rip it out in 10 years and replace it.
If you have to live with an LS9 for two or three years in order to afford doing the install correctly, do it.

Also, im sorry, but you need to give us some sense of budget, even an abstract range. 10k-20k? 100k-200k?