Sources for acoustic panels?
- Thread starterJLNorthGA
- Start date
Without an acoustician taking measurements and doing calculations, randomly adding panels, at best is a waste of money, at worst will cause more harm than good.
I have bought from theses guys before: Bonded Logic - Acoustical Products - OEM Acoustical Products
Granted, it was for a gymnasium that was cinder block walls. We sent them the room dimensions, they sent us back what product to use where. It worked rather well. But... this was for a gym. We were not interested in it being a better acoustical space, we were interested it it not having 10 seconds of echo. For your purposes, with the amount of sound system you don't have you really could be shooting yourself in the foot. You might not need a soft surface, you might need a hard reflective surface. No way to really tell unless someone comes in and listens to and measures the room.
Granted, it was for a gymnasium that was cinder block walls. We sent them the room dimensions, they sent us back what product to use where. It worked rather well. But... this was for a gym. We were not interested in it being a better acoustical space, we were interested it it not having 10 seconds of echo. For your purposes, with the amount of sound system you don't have you really could be shooting yourself in the foot. You might not need a soft surface, you might need a hard reflective surface. No way to really tell unless someone comes in and listens to and measures the room.
Robert
Well-Known Member
JLNorth,
I feel your pain. I opened a facility with an architect that had no idea how to design a theatre. He actually stated his job was to design a building and we had to make it a theatre. That aside, he used a point about 6 feet beyond the backstage wall to draw the arch that separated the back row from the lobby. This created a very precise parabolic reflector that both reflected and amplified the sounds bouncing off of it. I measured about 4.5 seconds of delay/decay just from flying in a painted drop onstage and clapping my hands. Most people should realize that you probably have a hard surface already, plaster/drywall. I would not have any problem recommending you purchase a number of panels to create a pattern of sound absorption surfaces. Remember it should not be a continuous row or exactly regular.
Good luck.
I feel your pain. I opened a facility with an architect that had no idea how to design a theatre. He actually stated his job was to design a building and we had to make it a theatre. That aside, he used a point about 6 feet beyond the backstage wall to draw the arch that separated the back row from the lobby. This created a very precise parabolic reflector that both reflected and amplified the sounds bouncing off of it. I measured about 4.5 seconds of delay/decay just from flying in a painted drop onstage and clapping my hands. Most people should realize that you probably have a hard surface already, plaster/drywall. I would not have any problem recommending you purchase a number of panels to create a pattern of sound absorption surfaces. Remember it should not be a continuous row or exactly regular.
Good luck.
. I need to minimize the echo and reduce the 
[rant]
The company I work for does acoustical consulting. More projects than not that we do, end up with a substantial amount of the acoustical treatments value engineered out. The reason for that is simple -- if it takes $80,000 worth of treatments to clean up the acoustics in a room, $80,000 buys a lot of stuff.
Some architects are better than others, but we've seen architects:
+ Flat out deny the treatments due to their cost.
+ Flat out deny the treatments due to their visual appearance.
+ Let their interiors person choose the treatments in a room out of a catalog.
+ Pick 'n choose which of our recommended treatments they'll use and which they won't.
+ Alter, without our knowledge, our Acoustical Treatments specifications section upon final release of bid documents to bidders.
It's a broken system. The architect pays us to perform an acoustical study on their architectural design for different spaces and rooms in a building layout. Our acoustics guy models it up in EASE and simulates how the room will sound from any seat in the theater. Then, having paid us to perform our study, the architect decides to disregard most/all of the recommendations and ends up choosing the materials for their acoustical treatments out of a catalog based on what they want a room to look like instead of what they want it to sound like.
The little secret in all of this is that architects far more frequently will be judged on how the final building looks, and very infrequently will they be judged on how it sounds or functions.
[/rant]
That is why so many theaters have insufficient acoustical treatments.
The company I work for does acoustical consulting. More projects than not that we do, end up with a substantial amount of the acoustical treatments value engineered out. The reason for that is simple -- if it takes $80,000 worth of treatments to clean up the acoustics in a room, $80,000 buys a lot of stuff.
Some architects are better than others, but we've seen architects:
+ Flat out deny the treatments due to their cost.
+ Flat out deny the treatments due to their visual appearance.
+ Let their interiors person choose the treatments in a room out of a catalog.
+ Pick 'n choose which of our recommended treatments they'll use and which they won't.
+ Alter, without our knowledge, our Acoustical Treatments specifications section upon final release of bid documents to bidders.
It's a broken system. The architect pays us to perform an acoustical study on their architectural design for different spaces and rooms in a building layout. Our acoustics guy models it up in EASE and simulates how the room will sound from any seat in the theater. Then, having paid us to perform our study, the architect decides to disregard most/all of the recommendations and ends up choosing the materials for their acoustical treatments out of a catalog based on what they want a room to look like instead of what they want it to sound like.
The little secret in all of this is that architects far more frequently will be judged on how the final building looks, and very infrequently will they be judged on how it sounds or functions.
[/rant]
That is why so many theaters have insufficient acoustical treatments.
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BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Wow. I guess I have better luck working as a theatre consultant along side an acoustic consultant then a lot of you.
Most of the rooms I work on have little fixed acoustical absorption (which is what I think the OP means by acoustical panels), and rely on good shaping and, if the range of program is great, movable absorption (travelers or banners). We see a little fixed material in a few areas when for other reasons its not possible to shape correctly, but generally we don't want to throw away sound energy. And I've generally not experienced the recommendations not being followed - maybe 2-3 projects out of every 100 - but then we all spend time focusing on acoustics being built in through design, not stuck on after the room is designed.
But for cheap fixed absorption, hard to beat velour with some fullness stapled to wood battens.
Most of the rooms I work on have little fixed acoustical absorption (which is what I think the OP means by acoustical panels), and rely on good shaping and, if the range of program is great, movable absorption (travelers or banners). We see a little fixed material in a few areas when for other reasons its not possible to shape correctly, but generally we don't want to throw away sound energy. And I've generally not experienced the recommendations not being followed - maybe 2-3 projects out of every 100 - but then we all spend time focusing on acoustics being built in through design, not stuck on after the room is designed.
But for cheap fixed absorption, hard to beat velour with some fullness stapled to wood battens.
Therein lies the problem. We're frequently not hired onto a project until the building has been designed and the foundation is being poured. By this point, the architect has finalized most of their room layouts and have moved onto interior furnishings and coordination between trades.
It can't help that we're a one-stop shop -- audiovisual systems and acoustics. Budget and scope-wise, acoustics are maybe 2% of our role on a project. Thus, when an architect calls us with an RFP, their choice of timing for hiring us on a project has more to do with AV systems than acoustics.
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Ain't that the truth! For the sake of a few dollars in amendments early in the design process I've seen oodles of money spent trying to fix problems after the fact. Something as simple as specifying an isolation pad for an HVAC unit which adds little to the cost initially becomes a major retrofit when the big cranes need to come in to lift an incorrectly installed unit. My university acoustics professor once told us of the efforts taken to fix a concert hall in Toronto. Those fixes likely involved a major impact on the lighting since they were forced to suspend a concrete slab filled with ball bearings over the stage in order to bounce sound forward.
As others have noted it depends on when in the process the acoustical consultant gets involved and if they get listened to before it becomes a "fix the problems that you said we'd have but we didn't believe you when we decided not to do what you suggested" situation. It also depends on the intended use of the space and the construction budget. I love it when I can be involved in helping determine the overall room use and goals and the associated initial room volume, room shaping, space adjacencies, etc. but not only do practical considerations often trump what is desired but my involvement at all is often to try to address problems that already exist rather than having the opportunity to avoid them in the first place. One of my favorite phrases from Architects and Interior Designers is "We know this is bad acoustically but are sure you can come up with a creative solution", with that solution having to also be acceptable to them and budget friendly being unspoken.
The issue with any acoustical treatments including absorption is wanting to get the right amounts of the right type of treatments affecting the right frequencies placed in the right locations in order to address particular concerns. Just adding some type of acoustical treatment in some location(s) may help some issues, but may not be the most effective approach and can even create other issues. Many people don't feel the have the budget to 'do it right' and just want some undefined improvement, I undertsand that but just hope they realize that it may not be the most effective approach or without potential pitfalls.
For example, in this case what would be most effective to use may depend on whether you are trying to affect broadband sounds such as music or primarily just speech frequencies as that could impact the thickness and type of material used as well as possibly the mounting. It may also depend on whether making the room or that area of the room more 'dead' is potentially undesirable, in which case some diffusion or a combination absoprtion/diffusion product may be a better choice. And then there are details such how durable the finish needs to be, if you want a selection of colors or finish materials and so on. And, of course, the budget.
AlexDonkle
Active Member
My experience is more inline with Bill's, that the architects we work with most often hire us fairly early on into projects, especially spaces like theatres and/or churches. While there are some architects that still think of acoustics as "optional", the majority of the larger ones I know understand the importance of it (or at least, the very real chance of getting sued over poor acoustics).
A $1.5 Million Lesson In Acoustics
To the OP's question though, I agree with what's been said that getting a consultant would likely be very helpful. Is it possible adding standard acoustical panels will fix the slap and not affect any other part of the room? Sure, but there's always the chance of acoustical treatment having negative side effects. Here's a link to NCAC (National Council of Acoustical Consultants) membership directory, Any firm registered with them should be able to help with your project.
NCAC : Directory Search
A $1.5 Million Lesson In Acoustics
To the OP's question though, I agree with what's been said that getting a consultant would likely be very helpful. Is it possible adding standard acoustical panels will fix the slap and not affect any other part of the room? Sure, but there's always the chance of acoustical treatment having negative side effects. Here's a link to NCAC (National Council of Acoustical Consultants) membership directory, Any firm registered with them should be able to help with your project.
NCAC : Directory Search
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