Spot & Wash in one fixture
- Thread starterJustinPBrunei
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Have you ever used/seen a High End Studio Spot 575 with the frost filter on? It looks exactly the same, so its not really a wash light per say, but can be used as one. If I had a choice between a 'spot light' with a frost filter and a wash light, I would take the spot. If you can get both, so much the better. If you haven't seen a Studio Spot 575 with frost on, the best way I can describe it is get a leko, do a hard focus, and then drop some frost gel in it, like R101. Its almost the same principle, just won't be as spread as the leko.
As far as durability, performance, etc, I don't know yet because I have yet to see one. I can tell you that the Power Spot 700 revials a Mac 700 side by side. I can also tell you that a Mac 550 will be slightly brighter thanks to better optics despite a 400w lamp compared to a 575w lamp. Lamp life goes to Design Spot. Both have effects wheels, iris, and near identical zooms. The Mac 550 has more gobos, 6 rotating and 9 static. The Design Spot 575 has 2 rotating wheels with 6 gobos a piece. The Mac 550 has 2 color wheels, were as the Design Spot 575 has CMY and a color wheel. The Design Spot 575 also frost as you said, a prism, and a faster strobe at 13hz compared to 10hz of the Mac 550.
The Design Spot 575 can also be had for around 4 grand compared to roughly $6800 for the Mac 550. Thats like saying for one Mac 550 you get 1.5 Design Spot 575's. I would say it looks like a good buy. I defiantly want to have one demoed because I am also interested in these. Problem is they are brand new, demoed for first time last November, and didn't start shipping until February this year, so things like durability just aren't known yet as it is still new. If I have it demoed, I'll be sure to let you know how it looks.
I can also speak from experience about Elation's Power Spot 575 and 575IE if you would like to know about them.
As far as durability, performance, etc, I don't know yet because I have yet to see one. I can tell you that the Power Spot 700 revials a Mac 700 side by side. I can also tell you that a Mac 550 will be slightly brighter thanks to better optics despite a 400w lamp compared to a 575w lamp. Lamp life goes to Design Spot. Both have effects wheels, iris, and near identical zooms. The Mac 550 has more gobos, 6 rotating and 9 static. The Design Spot 575 has 2 rotating wheels with 6 gobos a piece. The Mac 550 has 2 color wheels, were as the Design Spot 575 has CMY and a color wheel. The Design Spot 575 also frost as you said, a prism, and a faster strobe at 13hz compared to 10hz of the Mac 550.
The Design Spot 575 can also be had for around 4 grand compared to roughly $6800 for the Mac 550. Thats like saying for one Mac 550 you get 1.5 Design Spot 575's. I would say it looks like a good buy. I defiantly want to have one demoed because I am also interested in these. Problem is they are brand new, demoed for first time last November, and didn't start shipping until February this year, so things like durability just aren't known yet as it is still new. If I have it demoed, I'll be sure to let you know how it looks.
I can also speak from experience about Elation's Power Spot 575 and 575IE if you would like to know about them.
JD
Well-Known Member
Elation (the high end division of American DJ) makes some nice products despite the bad warp. My concern is not so much the manufacturer as much as the concept. Two different optical trains are used for the different concepts. In a spot, you are looking for the tightest arc gap in the lamp for point focusing, (Remember the original varilites used a marc 350 lamp, and did pretty well! very very short gap) and for all of that light to fall on a focused gate. (gobo or iris) In a wash, you are looking for a slightly more diffused source lamp as the biggest design challenge is getting a smooth output field without loosing much light in the diffusion process. I think the trend is towards getting both out of the same fixture, but I'm not sure they compete with dedicated fixtures. Maybe I'm behind the curve on that one! Only way to tell is a/b comparison.
I did a little more digging. Just like JD said, different types of lamps for wash and spot lights but now a days, the washes and spots share lamps. Frost also hurts intensity big time: http://www.martin.com/spec/photometfull.asp?product=710
You can see that the efficency drops by about 20% when the frost filter is applied to the Mac. I expect roughly the same if not better for the Designs as thats a 250 wash vs a 575 spot.
Also, if shopping for 250s, Elation's Design 250 series is better cost wise then Martin's Mac 250 line, can get twice the lights for the same or more features. The Design Wash 250 is also slightly brighter, has a zoom, and beam shaper, just no frost filter. They all use the same lamp. So expect the Design Spot 250 to roughly be the same intensity wise as Mac 250s. Design Spot 250s have been around a little longer and I have heard nothing but good things about them.
You can see that the efficency drops by about 20% when the frost filter is applied to the Mac. I expect roughly the same if not better for the Designs as thats a 250 wash vs a 575 spot.
Also, if shopping for 250s, Elation's Design 250 series is better cost wise then Martin's Mac 250 line, can get twice the lights for the same or more features. The Design Wash 250 is also slightly brighter, has a zoom, and beam shaper, just no frost filter. They all use the same lamp. So expect the Design Spot 250 to roughly be the same intensity wise as Mac 250s. Design Spot 250s have been around a little longer and I have heard nothing but good things about them.
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soundlight
Well-Known Member
Yeeeah...there's a reason that they designed the case like that...
If only we could all afford a few showguns.
If only we could all afford a few showguns.
Depends on what you want to wash. Both the HE - SS and the Elation have a max. zoom out of 30 degrees, vs. say a Martin 700 wash which has a 65 degree range.
You end up either trimming higher or using more fixtures with the do-it-all spot/wash fixture, as opposed to a dedicated wash.
In any event, I would dedicated tungsten wash fixture - TW1, VL500 etc.. over a do-it all.
SB
Lol, its nice, minus the fact that a) its huge, really really huge b) you need a chiropractic visit after you hang and unhang the thing and c) it needs 220v, which in my opinion really sucks because it will never be able to be used in smaller venues here in the states where 120v is standard. I would like to play with them sometime though.
However, it looks to me like High End saw they were losing ground in the moving light area. This is not surprising since they canned all the Studio 250s, Track Spot, and Techno Beam. Also, the Studio 575s are really showing there age at this point. Just looks like another X-Spot, we will through everything we can in it and hope for the best, screw channel count and all the other problems with it. Now its let's make it as big as possible with a really bright lamp that can't be used everywhere, let alone in high numbers because of how ridiculously huge it is and how much power it eats. I'll keep VL3000s which are about 50% smaller area wise, 35% lighter, and 50% less power as well as Mac 2ks which are about 40% smaller area wise, 40% lighter and 40% less power. Cost ratio is also like 3:1 as well rental wise, not sure about to buy. /rant
However, it looks to me like High End saw they were losing ground in the moving light area. This is not surprising since they canned all the Studio 250s, Track Spot, and Techno Beam. Also, the Studio 575s are really showing there age at this point. Just looks like another X-Spot, we will through everything we can in it and hope for the best, screw channel count and all the other problems with it. Now its let's make it as big as possible with a really bright lamp that can't be used everywhere, let alone in high numbers because of how ridiculously huge it is and how much power it eats. I'll keep VL3000s which are about 50% smaller area wise, 35% lighter, and 50% less power as well as Mac 2ks which are about 40% smaller area wise, 40% lighter and 40% less power. Cost ratio is also like 3:1 as well rental wise, not sure about to buy. /rant
True SteveB, but I am talking about if you only had a few bucks to spend, I would go for the spot with frost, more versatile. Of course, it always depends on what you are using it for. I wouldn't recommend spots with frost filters to do a cyc wash for instance. And if you had more money, get both, because each is better then the other at what it was made for. Wash lights for washes, and spots for gobos and spots.
JD
Well-Known Member
Hee hee! Don't think it would make it into too many "smaller venues" with that instruction of not pointing it at anything closer than 12 feet away! (Love the warning sticker! http://www.highend.com/support/automated_luminaires/showgun/showgunwarning.asp ) Of course it does feed into my evil streak... "You wanted to be stars! Now feel the heat!!"
I must respectfully disagree with the statements above. I have editted for clarity, NOT to take JDs comments out of context.
The MAC2000 Profile/Performance, MAC2000 Wash, VL3000 (3500) Spot, and VL3000 (3500) Wash all use the exact same lamp.
The same HPL lamp is used in the Source4 ERS, PAR, and PARnel.
For the reverse, recently, I started a thread about an ERS fixture that used a PAR64 NSP lamp.
It's not the light source, but the rest of the optical train. One of the benefits of a "wash" light is that it will always be >50% brighter than its "spot" counterpart. I also agree with SteveB's point about "wash" lights having a wider zoom range. In the end, it comes down to using whatever tools will achieve the effect you desire. What the fixture is called/categorized by the manufacturer or others matters not.
Oh, and people, don't get too excited about the Showgun. It was designed as a competitor to the Synchrolite, and has a micro-Fresnel lens. HES' R&D team realized with minor tweaking they could put a few gobos in it, but one can't really call it a "profile" light. I've used them--they have their purpose, and yes they are incredibly intense, but often (usually?) a Synchrolite is the better choice. And I can't see them being of much use in legit theatre, except in very rare situations.
YMMV.
I have to go with Derek on this one, it is less about the lamp and much more about the lenses and reflectors. You could stick an HPL lamp in front of a spheric reflector and behind a fresnel lens and you would get the same effect as a normal fresnel, hey, some of those medium prefocus base lamps that are still in fresnels have been used in ERS fixtures. Of course, as Derek mentioned, we do have "PARs" that use lamps that were originally designed for ERS fixtures.
Back to the thread, I own the Elation PowerSpot 700 fixtures. If you look back a ways in the lighting forum you will find my review of them. The Design Spots are also good fixtures. It is true though, if you want to have both spot and wash it is better to have dedicated fixtures. But if you can only afford 1 fixture, these "hybrid" fixtures work pretty well. It is just a piece of frost that gets slipped in front of the optical train, and because of that you loose a good bit of output. But you do get a fairly even wash and you can throw the CYM or color wheel behind it. So, it can be effective, but not always ideal.
Back to the thread, I own the Elation PowerSpot 700 fixtures. If you look back a ways in the lighting forum you will find my review of them. The Design Spots are also good fixtures. It is true though, if you want to have both spot and wash it is better to have dedicated fixtures. But if you can only afford 1 fixture, these "hybrid" fixtures work pretty well. It is just a piece of frost that gets slipped in front of the optical train, and because of that you loose a good bit of output. But you do get a fairly even wash and you can throw the CYM or color wheel behind it. So, it can be effective, but not always ideal.
Based on my actual comparison (a new DS to a 1+/- year old Entour with a relatively new lamp) of a DesignSpot250 and an Entour, the Entour is a little brighter. It's also a little faster. Personally, I don't like the gobos or colors as much as I like the stock Entour choices, either. Yes, both can be replaced.
Having said all that, I can rent a DS for $65, but an Entour is $100. Purchase price is also higher. So I usually choose the DS because my clientele wouldn't know the difference unless they were side by side. Even then, I doubt they would care. I think it comes down to what features are most important to you, and whether you believe Martin has a more reliable product or not (which I do).
As for the frost effect, I use it very rarely, but that has more to do with the types of events I'm doing than the usefulness of the effect.
Having said all that, I can rent a DS for $65, but an Entour is $100. Purchase price is also higher. So I usually choose the DS because my clientele wouldn't know the difference unless they were side by side. Even then, I doubt they would care. I think it comes down to what features are most important to you, and whether you believe Martin has a more reliable product or not (which I do).
As for the frost effect, I use it very rarely, but that has more to do with the types of events I'm doing than the usefulness of the effect.
JD
Well-Known Member
Sorry to hear you disagree, but I stand by my point. When you are talking spots, it's all about point source. If you turn your unit off and open the shutter/douser and look right in the lens, you will see one electrode. That is because only one will end up at the optical center of the reflector. Standardizing lamps and fixtures are one thing, but designing the best spot always requires a tight point source. The closer the electrodes (short arc) the more effective the light source is. In DC xenon spots, the output is primarily on one electrode (thus the different shapes), sadly, ac HMI's produce two equal point sources, one on each electrode. The closer they are, the better, but there can only be one mathematical center to a parabolic, one gate cross point, and one beam convergence.
Lol. You know JD, they should put those warning stickers on the big 5k and up fresnels. I can remember doing Oz Feast '05 at the Tweeter Center and they were having problems with some of the 5ks not striking on the out door stage. They lowered in the batten with the 5ks in question, leaving the others on. Well, after a minute or so, the stage started to smoke under the ones that were on and they quickly turned them off. Talk about a sun tan. 
Anyway, haven't done a side by side of the Design Spot 250 and Mac 250s yet, so thanks for the info len about the side by side. As far as the washes go, I would take the Design Wash 250 over the Mac Wash 250 because on paper at least, its brighter and it has more options like a zoom and beam shaper for less money. This is despite the fact that a Mac Wash 250 can get a much larger spread thanks to lens options and frost which just makes it dimmer ultimately. I can get 2 Design Washes for every one Mac Wash to fix that. There again, you might need that big of a beam in some situations.
Anyway, haven't done a side by side of the Design Spot 250 and Mac 250s yet, so thanks for the info len about the side by side. As far as the washes go, I would take the Design Wash 250 over the Mac Wash 250 because on paper at least, its brighter and it has more options like a zoom and beam shaper for less money. This is despite the fact that a Mac Wash 250 can get a much larger spread thanks to lens options and frost which just makes it dimmer ultimately. I can get 2 Design Washes for every one Mac Wash to fix that. There again, you might need that big of a beam in some situations.
Agreed, I'm not one to argue with geometry, I always lose; same with gravity--Not just a good idea, it's the Law. I think however you meant ellipsiodal, not parabolic, as ellipsoidal reflectors have "one gate cross point, and one beam convergence." Parabolas have, by definition, one "focal point" but neither of the other two things.
I stand by my point that your statement "In a spot, you are looking for the tightest arc gap in the lamp for point focusing, (Remember the original varilites used a marc 350 lamp, and did pretty well! very very short gap) and for all of that light to fall on a focused gate. (gobo or iris) In a wash, you are looking for a slightly more diffused source lamp as the biggest design challenge is getting a smooth output field without loosing much light in the diffusion process." is not entirely accurate. I think I proved myself by citing examples whereby a wash and spot fixture use the exact same lamp.
As for looking at the cathodes, anodes, and electrodes, well, it's difficult to see the arc-gap by looking through the lens of a MAC2000 Wash, but I promise to try next time I have one in "tech world." I think I'll put in all three CMYs AND wear sunglasses, would that be acceptable?
I apologize for my tone. As stated in a different post, I'm feeling feisty today, not sure why. We can agree to disagree, I'm okay with that. Friends? <handshake.>
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JustinPBrunei
Member
Thank you all for the comment
I see there is a few to consider for.
but one thing for sure that it is morely likely to be a spot.
And it can never use as a wash. Which is just a spot with frost.
Well. it depend what do you use it for,
looks like it can't replace a wash, since wash is a moving fresnel.
I see there is a few to consider for.
but one thing for sure that it is morely likely to be a spot.
And it can never use as a wash. Which is just a spot with frost.
Well. it depend what do you use it for,
looks like it can't replace a wash, since wash is a moving fresnel.
JD and Derek, all of our lighting fixtures except for cyc's, PARs, and scoops ultimately are designed around the principle of a point source. If a fresnel had a point source, which in theory is impossible in a T/H fixture you could, in theory, get a nice hard edge beam out of it. We all know that in ERS fixtures the closer you get to a point source the better it looks. A wash fixture isn't made or broken by the lamp, it is made or broken by the optics. If you had a true point source you could stick it behind a WFL PAR lens and you would get a wash. Chances are you could stick it in a fresnel and still get the same soft edge that you are used to.
Also, the light from an arc discharge lamp is given off from the arc, same as welding, same as getting a shock, same as lightning. The only effect that the electrodes have on the lamp is that as they start to burn away and the arc gets longer, the color temperature gets warmer. So, yes, a shorter gap gets you closer to a point source, but the light is not given off by the electrodes. If the light were given off by the electrodes we would be back to the black boy radiator model like T/H lamps, and the arc gap wouldn't matter.JD said:
JD
Well-Known Member
You are correct. A parabolic reflector would produce parallel beam output, we are looking for the beam to collapse and thus use that "modified" ellipsoidal reflector! My bad!
Of course what I was referring to was a spot. Your comment brings me back to my original post, in which I stated that "Two different optical trains are used for the different concepts." In most wash fixtures, the front objective lens is the "theatrical" version of a fresnel lens. I say "theatrical" as fresnels do not use a clean step lens, but one that has a pebble-glass finish designed to introduce many refractive errors to produce a more "even" light. It is a far more efficient system than using a frost which contains opaque particles, or a spun fiber diffuser.
Yes, in an HMI lamp, I stand corrected, the metal vapor in the gas arc does produce most of the light. In xenon lamps, the light output is off of the positive electrode, or anode. (see alignment diagram. Picture credit, PTI Photon Technology International) The exception to this would be the common flash tube.
