Stage Monitor Volume Problems

[mwalkertx320]

My actors are always complaining that they can't hear their music on stage. We use mostly canned music. We got 4 monitors flown - 2 L/R in front of the apron and 2 L/R immeadately behind the proscenium. I can walk the stage and coverage Front to back, and Left to Right seems even.

It get's to the point that to get them loud enough, I can almost shut the FOH off. With FOH off, I can hear the monitors (albet the back side) back in the booth at back of the house and they still complain. My biggest concern is that my front few rows are hearing nothing but monitor. I've even toyed with the idea of running everything though the monitors - currently I leave the vocals out to avoid any feedback issues with the 14-24 E6s I have on stage, and using the FOH system to fill in what's lost since the house in on the backside of the monitors. Short of this, I've dreamed of a IEM system, but cost (I'd have to have dozens of packs) and I don't think the look would fly with the director.

Anyone have any ideas what else I could do? Could flown monitors be the cause? Could the actors be hearing the backside of the FOH system be the issue? I've thought about replacing the 4 speakers with 2 120deg 12" placed center down stage and mid stage - but I'm not sure what this would accomplish. I've got some kind of 8" SLS Audio speaker now. I've even thought of EQ/delay the monitors so that they align better with the FOH system, but this might cause more problems than it's worth.

 

[terminalpharmacy]

What are the monitor boxes? Are they horn loaded? If so are they rigged horns down? Is this a fixed grid theatre or do you have a flyrail? Depending on what the show is the actors should just be able to listen to the FOH and not need monitors. Have you phase checked those outputs / eqs / amps?

I have never had anything like the sounds of your problem except for a flamenco troupe wanting crown plates through the ds/ms/us monitors loudly and I ended up putting me66's understage just for monitors so the band didn't have to deal with the PD dancers.

 

[lakota651]

Hello,

From what you are describing it sounds to me to more or less and issue of "clarity". And yes, I would suggest that you consider delaying/EQing the monitors as if they were delay speakers, but first I would do two things. The first would be to walk the stage with the full systems on (including FOH) at the volume you would like it at, and at the volume the actors like it to be. Listen for the differences. I know this will be different with an empty house but it should give you an idea. Second, I would perhaps talk with actors, or ask the SM too, to figure out what it is that they are trying to here in the music/tracks. If its is CD quality, how they listen to it at home, them you do the best with what you have to work with. But if it is rhythm, beats, etc., then you can try and bring out those specific elements with EQ.

At the end of the day though it is about the audience's experience, so if you and the power that be can agree on that, the you do what you can to make the talent happy without sacrificing "the house: too much.

One last thing. If your setup gives you high pass control over you monitor sends, then you might consider raising it up some. Given that the lower you go in frequency the more omnidirectional the sound (generally speaking), you can probably afford to sacrifice some out of your stage mix, given that it will probably be filled in by spill from the house mix anyway. This should also help with the spill from the stage mix into the house.

Best of luck,

 

[DuckJordan]

As a side note, If for what ever reason the actors still believe that they can't hear squat, I am sorry but we have a 700+ seat house with a very large proscenium stage with a thrust (proscenium opening is 50' W x 20' H) and we have never used stage monitors (mostly because we don't have any). So if your actors think that they absolutely need to hear the music they really don't unless what they are doing solely resides on the music part of the act.

So if it sacrifices house then don't do it for the actors. Its best to start in high school so that they learn that even though they should be able to hear whats going on most often times they wont get direct feeds for monitors.

 

[museav]

It depends upon the amount of delay but delaying the monitors could sort of defeat the purpose of monitors as they would then hear everything with a delay, imagine everyone always appearing slightly off beat.

I think that you may have hit on the real issue in that they may be expecting an audience experience. Ironically, musicians often want a much more limited monitor mix, they typically don't want to hear the house mix or all the sources as much as just what it takes for their personal timing and performance. In your case the actors may also be expecting to hear the level and impact of the combined music and vocals but from only the music.

You might want to look at the monitor pattern. I'm guessing from your description that what you have might be something like this, http://www.nczon.com/8190v2 Data Sheet Rev 805.pdf. If you look at the polars for that speaker you see that both the horizontal and vertical pattern vary quite a bit, the 1,800Hz crossover frequency is pretty clearly reflected in the broad horizontal pattern and vertical lobing in the 2,000Hz polars. One effect of this is that with a higher crossover frequency and compact horn you have limited directionality up until well above 2,000Hz, at which point you start to get a very narrow vertical pattern. So you could have 'spill' from the monitors up to over 2,000Hz while having rather limited vertical coverage above that. If that is the case, then you might want to verify the monitor aiming and the coverage at high frequencies to try to get all the actors covered by the narrower high frequency pattern.

With flown monitors it is common to get much of the low frequency information from the house system, so taking some of the low frequencies out of the monitors may indeed help. Combine that with optimizing the high frequency coverage above might make it possible to more effectively provide the desired levels on stage without impacting the house as much.

 

[wolf825]

Perhaps a dumb question....or not.......but in addition to some of the questions about the directionality and type of stage monitors etc I have to ask--how high up are they flown / how far from the actors/stage..and how are the monitors aimed?

What I mean to look at is this--are the monitors (horns) at 'ear level' or are they much higher over their heads or aimed down at the floor or back wall and reflecting everywhere making things muddy?? Is there simply too much mid to low end and not enough clarity? Are they properly wired in polarity & phase? Reason I ask is there was a group I dealt with who called me in on a clarity problem they could not resolve for their stage...and the space had 4 nice KF300 EAW speakers flown overhead of the stage....pointing directly down at the stage floor from a batten from about 20' up--2 DS and 2 US--they were pissy cause they spent a lot of $$ on speakers for the stage monitoring and they sounded like butt ('dads' had hung them...poorly...but thats another issue<sigh>)...

Anyway--unless you stood right under the batten and speaker and tilted your head upwards and to the side, the sound was overall awful for monitoring purposes as it was shooting straight down at the floor and reflecting up and all over (and had a weird wiring/polarity issue as well that didn't help) which created a muddy boomy indirect reflection/cancellation/phasing type of sound....which just resonated in the 400-500hz range as you stood on stage..blah! So changing the position/location & angle of the speakers to be mounted closer in proximity to the actors, and at a more reasonable height & location etc (and also fixing the wiring error & mounting) so the sound hit the actors instead, and not was bounced off the floor, made a world of difference for the actors and made the stage volume drop over half from what it used to be...You may be able to HEAR the speakers while on stage to adjust for volume levels--but always ask yourself what are you hearing--clarity or crap--and if its crap then ask WHY....is what you are hearing what the actors want or need to hear or is it muddy or resonating--and also check with the actors on what they feel they are missing for tempo and clarity. Sadly most actors and people I have noticed are going deaf early today...usually from sticking their IPOD earbuds so far deep into their ears and cranking the levels up...so much so that its amazing anyone can hear anything anymore...but that is a rant for another time....

Anyway....in addition to what has been suggested--you may wish to also look at your speaker positioning & orientation related to the stage to ensure that is not the key contributing factor....



-w

 

[hsaunier]

If you have time to experiment.....and this is not a huge project.....try bringing the boxes down to the floor and place them in the wings as side fills. Again try to remove the mud in the 400-500 hz range by Eq. You may get a different audience experience as well because you are not reflecting as much sound off the back wall of the stage, and then sending it out to the audience.

 

[blalew]

One question that might change this whole discussion - are they singing to the music? or is it transitional/ambient/SFX (are they listening for cues)?

If they're singing it will be much harder to convince actors that they don't need so much monitor. But there are other ways to skin the proverbial cat without creating issues for the audience.

 

[CSCTech]

Well, I am starting to think it is the actors. We have a 350 seat house with two cabs midway of the house (dont ask...) and nothing else, our dance recital dancers can hear the music fine and they really need to hear it. And as for drama performances, same. Although I have started to have monitors beckstage.

Try placing monitors in the wings. Worked fine for us, and great for cues.

 

[TimmyP1955]

You may have the same problem we do: They may be hearing a lot of the main system coming back at them from the rear of the house, and so they need a lot of monitor level to overcome this.

 

[museav]

You may have the same problem we do: They may be hearing a lot of the main system coming back at them from the rear of the house, and so they need a lot of monitor level to overcome this.

That can be a fairly common problem but the comment "With FOH off, I can hear the monitors (albet the back side) back in the booth at back of the house and they still complain." seems to indicate that this problem exists even if the house system is off.

 

[pmolsonmus]

When I do FOH for musical revues, I first start by putting monitors behind the actors and in the wings as side fills only if necessary. The singer feels supported and will sing out (as a vocal coach as well, this is important!) An increased level in monitor usually results in pushing the singer's sound out to the house as well.

If its a weaker singer, I may try to put a little bit of the singer back into the monitor for confidence provided I can do so without feedback.

Phil