Vintage Lighting Switching from Source 4 to Altman 360

[BobHealey]

As I find myself branching out into the world of theater, I find myself moving down the tech tree. I learned lighting with Source 4s, Shakes, PAR Cans, Expresses, Road Hogs, Martin scanners, etc. My first venture into community theater was all Altman 360Qs which were close enough I didn't have much issue transitioning to them. There are two new venues that I plan/expect to spend more time doing lighting at due to them being much closer to home/work. However, these theaters have yet to upgrade past radian fixtures. When I did Godspell a month back at one of them, I found the 4.5x6 and 6x9's not giving me the coverage I thought they would. Not sure if that was still getting used to the building layout (thought the 8" fresnels and PAR cans behaved as expected), or if radial units are sufficiently different in behavior that I need to shift how I design. I do wonder if the correct lamps are in the fixtures, as I've found incandescent lamps meant for 360's in the 6" fresnels (barely fit).

So, any advice for a 30 year old going back in time 45-50 years in terms of lighting equipment? The oldest console I'll encounter will be a MicrovisionFX which is close enough to Express that I'm not worried.

Thanks

 

[derekleffew]

... Not sure if that was still getting used to the building layout (thought the 8" fresnels and PAR cans behaved as expected), ...

Perhaps the inherent soft-edge beam of the Fresnels and PARs made the issue less noticeable. Did you do your proper BeamWright/photometric calculations?

...or if radial units are sufficiently different in behavior that I need to shift how I design. ...

The performance differences between say an Altman 360Q-6x9 (axial) and 360-6x9 (radial) are intensity and evenness/sharpness of beam, due to the large gaping hole in the reflector for the, originally incandescent, 1.5" D. lamp to fit through, as well as the hole's location. Prone to a dark spot in the field angle. By the time the smaller T-6 tungsten-halogen lamp became available, the industry had moved on to axial. The T/H lamp also had the advantage of being able to burn in any position, unlike the BBU or BBD incandescent lamps--the reason for the radial design in the first place.

Lest we forget, a good many shows were nicely lit from 1933-1974 (and beyond, continuing today) using radial ERS units. Other than the lamp and reflector, optics are the same. Lens tubes and barrel s are interchangeable.

You should be using 500W EGE or 750W EGG in your 360, not Q, units. You found a Fresnel lamp in an ERS. Didn't work so good. If the converse, a BTL, BTN, or new BTH in the ERS, won't be good either. The LCL is wrong, thus the filament not in the reflector's focus. Oddly, performing a bench focus on a radial is no more difficult than on an axial, provided one has appropriate expectations.

Remember, the fixtures are merely the artist's brushes.

 

[BobHealey]

It was actually the other way around. BBU lamp in a 65 (pre-Q). I was inventorying the 65 collection and seeing if any still had good sockets (only the one with the BBU lamp). I'm going to check the ERSes and make sure there are no BTx lurking in them. I was really unhappy with the light from them (worse than I was expecting, some were actually projecting the mirror surfaces), so a bench will possibly be happening.

It sounds like I should just put some TLC into these and they'll behave closer to expectations in terms of beam size/shape. I'm also going to make sure that no one's done a silly like shove a x16 lens where a x6 lens should be. These are mainly Hub units (though they look identical to actual 360s until you look at the sticker), and some I was told century units (they look like giant heat sinks), that are 6" but don't take a standard frame that fits a 360(Q)/65(Q).

 

[Les]

If you are getting reflector projections, make sure all your lensing is correct as well. Bench focusing should help, but I've found that when I'm getting a reflector image in the beam, it is usually the wrong lens tube, or one of the lenses is missing. YMMV.

 

[BobHealey]

+1 auditorium I need to clean/field inspect/bench focus this summer then. I've got no problems with using old gear, my favorite fresnels at SLOC are some '60s vintage Kliegels that I prefer over the 10 yr old Altman 175Qs. I'll probably be posting for more advice once I start working on the theoretical century ERS units.

 

[BillESC]

I'll bet it's the wrong lamps in the 360's.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

I've had a few 360Q's that were missing one of their lenses and exhibited the exact "image of the reflector" problem that you mentioned. Also, the wrong lenses in a lens train, the wrong lens train in a light, or any mixture of those, can be detrimental to the intended beam, and sometimes even cause double shutter images. Lenses should also face belly to belly.

I have a soft spot for the 360(Q), not just because its a workhorse, but because of how many ways it can go wrong!

And yes, I too love to make use of whatever old school Fresnels a theatre may have in the inventory.

 

[BobHealey]

Today on Antiques Roadshow....

So, I've been asked to try to identify the make/model of this radial fixture. The facility thinks its a Century, but it doesn't look like any of the Centuries I've seen pictures of here. It looks like a standard 6" unit, but the 360 frames are 1/4" to 1/2" too big. I've got 5 of these, 2 360's, 2 65's, and 5 steel Altman PAR 64s (the only post 1970 fixtures in inventory, hand me downs from elsewhere) to play with for lighting. 12 channels of Leprecon MX dimmers, controlled by a Leprecon 1524 speaking DMX to the MX pack, and 10V to the LD-2400 running the house lights. There are an additional 6 360's and 3 65's, along with a newish 3.5Q but those are reserved for religious services and are not available for theatrical uses. And yes, the lack of Q after the model number was deliberate.
The mystery leko:


The patch panel:

It uses pre-NEMA twist for its input from the dimmers (out of sight to the right).

 

[gafftapegreenia]

If I remember correctly it was made by Major.

 

[derekleffew]

Re: Today on Antiques Roadshow....

The mystery leko:

See the thread http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/4820-id-old-fixtures-major-leco.html , starting at post#17. BTW, you weren't planning on energizing the fixture with that whip, were you?

The Patch Panel looks like many from Hub Electric Company. Quite fun reading some of the Hub literature in the wki. Much of their advice about lighting and layout is still valid fifty years later.

 

[BobHealey]

Re: Today on Antiques Roadshow....

The patch panel is by Hub. Supports 24 dimmer inputs, only 13-24 are in use (they were the 12 closest to the dimmers). Has 6 50A outlets (not in use) to power dimmer units. It was installed in '68 and is original to the facility.

Those definitely look the same. Any idea what size frame they take? As for the fixture whip, that's how all the fixtures look - whomever de-asbestos'd them didn't bother with fiberglass sleeves. The only fixtures with the fiberglass sleeves are the 6 or so instruments that were acquired after 1980.

 

[derekleffew]

Re: Today on Antiques Roadshow....

...Any idea what size frame they take? ...

Whatever will fit? You answered your own question:

... It looks like a standard 6" unit, but the 360 frames are 1/4" to 1/2" too big.

I'm not sure who standardized the 7.5"x7.5" colorframe for 6" units; it was probably Century Lighting, and most other manufacturers followed suit. Kliegl Bros. being a noteworthy exception--their 6" ERS and 6" FS used different (from each other, as well as from everyone else) sized frames. You have the fixtures, just measure one.

Even if it is the proper high temperature wire (which I suspect it's not), it should not be used unless in a fiberglass jacket.