Using 208V on NEMA 5-15

[lightingguybychoice]

Hey Guys, at my company we use a lot of Leds and we send our Leds to a lot of different people. These LEDs are Auto Sensing 120/208 units. We are currently sending them with either power-con female to male edison or upc to male edison. Here is my questions. I would say that 90% of the guys we use will run 208v on multi to a 6- Nema 5-15 125v rated edison plugs and not having any issues. I know this should be bad but I cant come up with a good reason on what will/could happen to make my company spend thousands of dollars on the cable and ends needed to make these L6-20. I had a conversation with our safety and risk guy and he said here was more concern with amps that volts and isn't worried...I know the danger of plugging in 120v fixtures on 208v...Pop! I need to collect as much info as I can so I can tell my company why they should spend the dough...or am I worrying about nothing? Can you guys give my any good advice?

 

[TimMiller]

It's in violation with the nec. If a fire marshall or some other inspector sees this he will freak out. Besides the danger say someone plugged in a device that was improperly wired and fries themselves? There are lots of people who see a plug and think they can just plug into it. It's typically one of those things that everyone thinks is ok until someone gets hurt.

 

[n1ist]

I agree with Tim.

From a purely electrical standpoint, it will work (there's no mechanical difference between a 5-15 and a 6-15, or even the 20A varietes other than the orientation of the pins for most manufacturers).

From a legal, safety, and common sense standpoint, don't do it. Even more so if you are leasing them to people outside your company.

If you can live with the 10A current limit, you could use IEC C14 connectors on the fixture (like the ones on a PC power supply) and send them out with whatever power cord you need. Those connectors are rated 125v/250v, and if someone ever loses a power cord, it's easy to find a spare lying around.

/mike

 

[STEVETERRY]

Hey Guys, at my company we use a lot of Leds and we send our Leds to a lot of different people. These LEDs are Auto Sensing 120/208 units. We are currently sending them with either power-con female to male edison or upc to male edison. Here is my questions. I would say that 90% of the guys we use will run 208v on multi to a 6- Nema 5-15 125v rated edison plugs and not having any issues. I know this should be bad but I cant come up with a good reason on what will/could happen to make my company spend thousands of dollars on the cable and ends needed to make these L6-20. I had a conversation with our safety and risk guy and he said here was more concern with amps that volts and isn't worried...I know the danger of plugging in 120v fixtures on 208v...Pop! I need to collect as much info as I can so I can tell my company why they should spend the dough...or am I worrying about nothing? Can you guys give my any good advice?

From NEC section 406.4(F):

F) Noninterchangeable Types. Receptacles connected to circuits that have different voltages, frequencies, or types of current (ac or dc) on the same premises shall be of such design that the attachment plugs used on these circuits are not interchangeable.

That means you cannot do what you propose.

ST

 

[Footer]

From NEC section 406.4(F):

F) Noninterchangeable Types. Receptacles connected to circuits that have different voltages, frequencies, or types of current (ac or dc) on the same premises shall be of such design that the attachment plugs used on these circuits are not interchangeable.

That means you cannot do what you propose.

ST

Steve, are socapex exempt or do we just look the other way?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

 

[lightingguybychoice]

Hey Guys, Thanks for the replies.Here is another point I like to make. We don't deal with the fire marshall a lot. We do conventions and exhibits that typically the Fire Marshall is more concern with the seating arrangement rather then what voltage a plug is running. I know the FM should be but it rarely happens. My company stance is that we send these fixtures out to be ran at 110v only and its the ME's job to make sure this is so, my point is the we know people are not doing that and should I(or the company) have adapters that can run 208v sent with the fixtures. I think you can step down in voltage but never up. My solution would be to send these fixture out with a 208v rated plug and if they need to run 110v on them we send adapters to do so. I know other companies send similar fixture out with a 240v StagePin, this is even a bigger mistake in my eyes than edison because I have seen people plug LEKO's(ers) and other conventional fixtures into a stage pin fan out thinking it was 110v more than someone plugging into a marked or taped off edison. I really want some thing I can take to my bosses and say we have a problem and it would be wise to spend the money on these because...

 

[derekleffew]

... These LEDs are Auto Sensing 120/208 units. We are currently sending them with either power-con female to male edison or upc to male edison. ...

So the fixtures come with either panel mount male PowerCON or panel mount male UPC [IEC 60320-1 (C14)] power inlet s, and you/your shop supply an adapter to get to male 5-15 P? Supplying an L6-20 P adapter will enable the client to use the industry-standard (for 200-250V) L6-20 break-out.

Almost all auto-ranging equipment that I've seen comes as above (PowerCON or UPC), OR, if it has a cord, comes with bare end to put the onus of the correct mains connector onto the consumer/end user.
The first "5" in NEMA 5-15 designates it as a maximum 125V connector. End of story.

Another point for debate: Some feel that a 5-15 to L6-20 adapter is acceptable, but an L6-20 to 5-15 is not acceptable. Why might that be?

...My company stance is that we send these fixtures out to be ran at 110v only and its the ME's job to make sure this is so, ...

And from an equipment owner's standpoint, that's perfectly valid reasoning. It's unlikely you'll come up with a persuasive argument to spend money based on "but some in the field, over whom we have no control, are breaking the rules."

I suppose if you receive a shop order for LED fixtures, a 208V ML PD, and Edison break-outs, you might question or caution the user, but how far should a rental shop go to ensure
1) The equipment will not be damaged,
2) All life-safety codes are being followed ?

 

[lightingguybychoice]

I was taught it was better to step down from a NEMA 6 to a NEMA 5 if they are using the correct voltage. Kinda like the Rigging principle of "weakest link" but the more I read and study the more unsure I become...

 

[porkchop]

Since you're sending out fixtures that will work perfectly well at a voltage appropriate for the supplied cabling I doubt that you will find a convincing reason for the company to switch over to 208V cabling. Likely they'll say it's the renters responsibility to use them properly. What you can do is show that a lot of your equipment is being used at 208V so any future purchases should be specified for 208V. It's a long term solution and doesn't really help the legal/safety issues going on currently, but it is something to make you feel a little better.

 

[JD]

Kind of like feeding boiling hot water to a drinking fountain. You make certain assumptions when you see a 5-15.

Soco at 208 is common, so are 5-15 breakouts for Soco, so it's easy to see why it happens. Still, the liability factor alone should stop you from using the practice.

If something does go wrong, and the equipment is configured in violation of NEC, the court decision is all but predetermined.

 

[STEVETERRY]

Steve, are socapex exempt or do we just look the other way?

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They are not exempt. Other than that, Senator, I have no knowledge of this issue.

ST

 

[lightingguybychoice]

Thanks For Advice Guys, This is going to be a work in progress but we will get there...I hope

 

[mstaylor]

Would the way to limit liability be to ask when writing the order, "Are you running 110v or 208v? Do you need the heavier cables?" Then if they do something different then it's on them.

 

[JD]

Would the way to limit liability be to ask when writing the order, "Are you running 110v or 208v? Do you need the heavier cables?" Then if they do something different then it's on them.

More of an issue with the breakout connectors then the cable. Maybe a hold harmless rider that indicates that the 5-15 connectors are rated for 125 volt usage, and that you are not liable for misuse, operation outside of specifications, or outside NEC compliance by the customer.

They are not exempt. Other than that, Senator, I have no knowledge of this issue.

ST

Very interesting point. Soco is often used to distribute 208 to movers, and at the same time in the same location, 120 to conventionals. No one would want to double their inventory with a second "set" of Soco that has some variation in the connector. Yet, I am sure more then one costly goof-up has occurred over the years. I often wondered if a pin 19 plug would be the answer. (Ex- Soco used for 208 would have a plastic cap in that location and the pin missing on the male.) A "208" male would still be able to be plugged into 120, but a 120 male could not be plugged into 208. Remove the plastic pin 19 plug and you have your 120 back again.

 

[derekleffew]

... Yet, I am sure more then one costly goof-up has occurred over the years. ...

Raise your hand if you have seen/done it. Once, a Par-Bar of HPLs, no biggie. Another time, six 2K Fresnels, expensive and rare(r) CYX lamps. "I told you to label the cable." "No, I told you to label the cable." Guess the cable didn't get labeled.
See also the thread http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/25700-i-messed-up.html .
Oh, and there was one show where we kept repeatedly blowing Mac2K line fuses, because we unknowingly were running them at 120V, not noticing the distinction between "120/208V" and "120/208Y" on the distro's faceplate.


1. The proprietary to PRG, S400 cabling system is well beyond what JD proposes. Although it doesn't use Socapex (the cable carries Ethernet as well as power), a special circuit senses the type of break-out box and will not pass power if connected to the wrong source.

2. Some have proposed an alternate pin-out for 208V, but it has not been adopted by many.

Thanks Randy. I notice the [Strand] datasheet says:

LightRack modules feature dual socapex
outputs to connect quickly to your rig.
208 volt modules feature a special pin ar-
rangement to prevent damage if you ac-
cidentally plug in 120 volt loads.

Could you list this pin-out and does this mean a user must use non-standard L6-20 break-outs?

1 1-LOAD L1 A
2 2-LOAD L1 A
3 1-LOAD L2 B
4 2-LOAD L2 B
5 3-LOAD L1 B
6 4-LOAD L1 B
7 3-LOAD L2 C
8 4-LOAD L2 C
9 5-LOAD L1 C
10 6-LOAD L1 C
11 5-LOAD L2 A
12 6-LOAD L2 A
13-18 GROUND
19 N/C

That is what I have for the pin out for 208v.

An "industry-standard" 208V break-out is wired identically to the 120V version; the only thing that changes is the six line connectors, i.e.:

Pin# Ckt# Use: Phase:
1 1-LOAD L1 A
2 1-LOAD L2 B
3 2-LOAD L1 C
4 2-LOAD L2 A
5 3-LOAD L1 B
6 3-LOAD L2 C
7 4-LOAD L1 A
8 4-LOAD L2 B
9 5-LOAD L1 C
10 5-LOAD L2 A
11 6-LOAD L1 B
12 6-LOAD L2 C
13-18 GROUND
19 N/C
(Phasing may not be accurate for all distros. Some go AB,CA,BC,AB,CA,BC... Others go AB,BC,CA,AB,BC,CA...)

Not saying this is a bad thing, and the efforts to prevent sending 208V to 120V lamps should be applauded, but it's something to be aware of, should one ever need to rent or obtain additional break-outs.

I believe Christie Lights follows a similar if not identical practice, as they also have a system for mixing 120 and 208 supplies within the same rack.

From the LightRack manual referenced above:

In order to meet Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory requirements for safety, LightRack™ uses two different 19-Pin Socapex Connector pin-out configurations for 120V and 208V cable breakout assemblies. If the incorrect breakout assembly is used, power will not circuit to the lighting grid.

 

[derekleffew]

They are not exempt. Other than that, Senator, I have no knowledge of this issue.

Permission to treat the witness as hostile, your honor?

 

[jstandfast]

In my immediate AO, at two different venues, one can find the lowly 19 pin connector used by two different departments at three different voltages.

 

[ship]

Best to be sure of the problems of what you are asking about an electical problem on before having that problem. Not an overall problem but details in why it could be fine.

"We are currently sending them with either power-con female to male edison or upc to male edison. Here is my questions. I would say that 90% of the guys we use will run 208v on multi to a 6- Nema 5-15 125v rated edison plugs and not having any issues."

Of which you state... there is very many problems in understanding problems on many levels. Assuming electrically fixture switching - fixture don't care what UPC or Edison power feed it has in voltage - what ever UPC is in I have no idea, but in having a problem a say 6-NEMA 515 125v Rated Edison plug... that's a mis-statement in a very much type way.

Sorry if harsh seeming, but the best way to make a defense about the misuse of your gear is out of an educated position on it. I'm confused about your weighing pints. Sorry but if of help, just have no idea of what your problems are.

Later posts seem to assume a lot.

So if a Stage pin is dual rated in voltage, is it not the perfect go-between for a power switching thingie in doing 120 or 208v than doing say Edison on it? Power supply is power switching, think I read a problem with this stage pin as a plug the adaptors a problem with.... Plug in what you want to them in voltage. What's the problem in everything rated they plug into as adaptor?

Still not cocepting this problem - sorry, perhaps explain further to help my simple stated self.

"And from an equipment owner's standpoint, that's perfectly valid reasoning. It's unlikely you'll come up with a persuasive argument to spend money based on "but some in the field, over whom we have no control, are breaking the rules." "

Are we really talking breaking the rules on LED fixtures for amperage in type of plug used I think L6-15 verses L6-20? Is a company breaking the "rules" in using a L6-15 plug for a far less than 1800w load at 208v load for LED gear? This I believe is the discussion in not spending money.

At some point, I'll credit companies that went 208v 20A sockets for their outlets. Very useful given the last ten years worth of lighting gear in load on them. Too cheap and standing in the way?

Sorry, some choices between 1975 and 1999 when I joined with them, were other than I might have as a Master Carpenter in changing one's fields over the next few years of making my own mistakes and good ideas in the next ten years of my own reign for blame in all intensive purposes. Breaking the rules.. yep at times, and setting them also for many too.

Way before I started working where I did, they went L6-15 as their outlet, that with L5-15 and Veam CIR of many pin configurations and VSC, Pyle National 16 and 37 pin in addition to other types like Soco #337 and Creep 19 pin as another style... want to really know how many styles of plug has been in use since like 1975 when companies “too cheap” to change say their entire inventory to something and given LED probably now isn’t worth changing at this point....?

That’s a different topic. Making gear safe is different than a concept of gee, we should be L6-20r instead of L6-15R for receptacle in assuming all gear currently is going better and higher in wattage, but all up until now is less than like 1800w in loading mostly.

Suspect this is a topic I would support a few years ago in why didn’t management switch to 20A outlets on like a few very much $$$ K verses gear, cable an outlets.

Now it would seem mostly a moot point in very high wattage gear mostly suited for L6-30 outlets or otherwise much LED gear that’s low in wattage thus the L6-15R is really useful for a duplex outlelt.

Sorry but I’m just not seeing any realistic thing as a problem here. Again sorry in thinking by mistake, the L6-15 set of plugs is perhaps the best or at least for now not the worst choice.

On a question of what one sees... sorry overall but didn’t see problems over dogma in lack of what one wants to see over what is fine to use. Sorry if this causes a problem to you and above, expand knowledge, and or better way to fight the various battles that often I’m all for.

L6-15 verses L6-20.... believe as more and more LED gear comes to the market, the L6-15 will be best for it in the end. Yea... you had some 2,500w moving lights populalr for a summer... where are they now? In the mean time, you get crappy 1.5Kw movers popular over the 1.2Kw ones. 1.2Kw ones and the 700w versions were and are a good selling pint for the 20 amp outlets.

Problem is most 15A industry outlets are 20 A breakered so they cover the same gear, and less and less gear going out on shows isn't LED.

Moot point mostly overall.

 

[jroman7]

So, I understand all the legal reasons, but I have a place where I only have 5-15 plugs on all the lights, they are not accessible to anybody besides me. Would it be bad to run 208V through a 5-15 wired system? I ask because we have a combination of Mac 250 Wash fixtures and Chauvet Colorado's but because of the cable run and the amount of fixtures, I am getting 103V and 20A draw currently. I want to lower the amperage and run everything at 208V, but I don't want to spend the money and time to swap out connectors. We would only be running this way for 2-3 weeks until we change the setup and then I can go back to 120V. Thoughts?

 

[Footer]

So, I understand all the legal reasons, but I have a place where I only have 5-15 plugs on all the lights, they are not accessible to anybody besides me. Would it be bad to run 208V through a 5-15 wired system? I ask because we have a combination of Mac 250 Wash fixtures and Chauvet Colorado's but because of the cable run and the amount of fixtures, I am getting 103V and 20A draw currently. I want to lower the amperage and run everything at 208V, but I don't want to spend the money and time to swap out connectors. We would only be running this way for 2-3 weeks until we change the setup and then I can go back to 120V. Thoughts?

Nope. Never.

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