What is wrong with this picture

I'm assuming the white is the ceramic connector that connects to the pin terminals of the lamp proper. The focus isn't quite good enough for me to be sure, but I think that looks like solid, not stranded, wire. Stranded would be better, but either way it should be soldered to the connector terminal. If, on the other hand, the white ceramic is actually part of the lamp, it looks like instead of connectig the wire directly, it should be crimped into the proper size insulated "faston" terminal.

John
 
“not to get off topic, but if i'm correct, the hot and neutral do make a difference, i have been told that if it is wired one way and then rewired opposite it will greatly reduce the life of the lamp.” - techieman33

There are 152 types of lamp base currently in use ranging from B22d to Wire Lead. Given this, a steadfast rule that applies to all will be not be appropriate. There is some basic principles about lamp bases and lamps however.

First, this is alternating current. In other words, the power heads in one direction, than reverses itself and goes in the other direction 50 or 60 times a second. In other words, with AC power, the power does not go in from one end and out another though it’s easiest for wiring principals to consider it as doing this - one end in, one end out. How ever you consider it, a filament lamp working under AC power 99.5% of the time won’t matter which side you attach the hot to because the filament will resist the current flow no matter which side of it gets the power first for 1/60th of a second as opposed to the other side of it getting power for the other 1/60th of a second next. 120v AC current works just like 208v currrent and other types of current except instead of having two hot wires feeding the filament 1/3 out of phase with each other, the 120v lamp only has one hot. Both types of current still have the current going back and fourth in feeding the lamp.
This is not the case with DC power where the flow goes from the negative to the positive. In cases like this while any AC lamp will work under DC power, there can be at times DC lamps specifically designed for a direction of current flow in preventing any filament notching that might happen on the power in side as can happen given the single direction of power. You will probably never see such a lamp used on stage and for general purposes such a consideration is not to be worried about.

So why does it matter at times which wire is hot and which is neutral on a lamp? This goes into the nature of the lamp base design. Your medium screw E-26 or E-27 household lamp has a 1.1/16" dia. (26mm) for American lamps, Screw thread and a contact plate at the base of it. Same with a Fresnel’s Medium Prefocus Single Contact P-28s lamp base which is also about 1.1/16" dia (27.4mm Dia.) In having a wide skirt at the top used to lock the lamp into place. You will also find that center contact plate on this lamp. For the most part, the screw base be it from E-5 Midget Screw to E-40 European Mogul Screw and pre-focus single contact point based lamps from P-14.5s to P-40s are the primary consideration for having a specific hot and neutral. There are other types but these most explain the rule. When you remove one of these lamps from it’s lamp base, there is a chance that you will touch or come into contact with the screw thread. Were this pre-focus fin or screw thread hot, you would probably get shocked. Having a rule that the neutral goes to the shell than makes sense in protecting the user’s of the lamp from shock.

Most other lamp bases other than these two types will not matter which side is hot and which side is neutral. Stick that GX-16d Extended Mogul End Post/EMEP lamp into a base, and both pins are the same side. Stick that Leko lamp with a Medium 2-Pin G9.5 into it’s base, and both pin holes are also the same size. Given both pins are alike, than wiring one side with a specific hot or neutral will not matter because there is no way to ensure the lamp will be inserted in one of the two specific ways. This also covers such lamps as RSC / R-7s / R75 type Recessed Single Contact Double Ended Lamps such as many people would be using in cyc lights or even construction work lights, down to the wire lead lamp bases used on your Christmas Tree.

This said, there is like with the position orientated prefocus Fresnel lamp bases above, bi-pin and other types of lamp base which use a position orientation system to help ensure the lamp goes in in a specific way so as to optimize the filament’s layout in the fixture. Such lamp bases as say a GY 9.5 Skirted Medium Prefocus 2 pin which is similar to your Leko lamp in style has one pin 3.2mm and one 2.4mm in dia. instead of both pins 3.17mm. In this case, besides having the pins of different diameters to help position the lamp in the fixture, you would tend to want the hot wire going to the larger pin because this has the primary amperage on it.

Given the specific pins, such lamps might also be optimized for current fed from a specific direction in there being a possibility to what you were told, but not many of them would need to be. What ever the case of some very specific lamps, all PAR lamps have two pins of an equal size and it will not matter which is hot and which is neutral because one end of the filament is the same as the other end of it.

Hope it helps..
Brian Shipinski

(Festoon terminals would also be the wrong answer also.)
 
What by me posting do I shut down the discussion period by way of intimidation or something? My intent was to educate and answer questions to what's posted but not solve the problem. A problem that as yet is still not figured out. You are tech people, much less most of you are specifically lighting tech people, why is this thing unsafe?

One last day or two to answer before Mayhem tells you why this thing ain't proper. Much of the ain't proper has been hinted at but is judged to be skirting the absolute and most proper answer along with the subsiquent answers as to why what was done in being improper even if wrong is improper. If you already posted, have another look and try again in refining your answer or being more specific in symplicity. If you have not posted but think you have a idea of why you don't want to see this, as you can see, while I might hop on and explain things further, you certainly are asked to help solve the problem in broading everyone's education.

Edit: send photo to dvsDave and he got them up here!

melted_plug.jpg
melted_plug_2.jpg


Here is another one I saw today that I did not get a photo of. A professionally made stage pin threefer male plug was taken apart today in replacing the hot pin which had broken within the plug so as to become much shorter than normal by way of breaking somewhere within the plug. It was noted upon opening up the cover two things. First that the pins were crimped to the wire so there was no chance of a loose pin to the below. Than that the wire was oxidized and the outer insulation on the wire was completely burned off and flaking off the oxidized/burn hot conductor up until it hit the strain relief.

What's the cause of this wire becoming over heated on this threefer to the extent that the insulation on it dry rots than flakes off within the plug, much less the wire oxidizes in over heating? There is two possible causes for it given it was a crimped terminal thus this plug's connection to the pin was not the cause.

Given the hot's insulation as far as could be seen that was stripped from the outer covering on the wire was over heated, what than would determine which of the two possible causes for the melting of the hot pin/wire was the cause of the threefer's failure? In other words, what simple thing can you do which will show the cause if not even if it's safe to cut the wire and just add a new plug to it?
 
we havent heard a reply from Mayhem regarding if anyone was right or not.....i think most poeple are waiting on him.
 
By the way in adding a second topic to the subject of more than one conversation going on at once some hate seeing, there is a third option I had not thought of at the time but did later become another option to cause the melt down of the threefer. In this possibility the fact that the pin gapping on the broken hot pin was also squeezed together would be a hint in it's possibility as a factor once the pin itself broke it's mount and became shorter. Three options now for why the cable went bad, still one good way of confirming at this point one of two reasons for it at this point was not the cause. If it would be of use, I'm sure the plug is still in my trash can and I should be able to post the picture.



On Mahyem's post, don't worry, he will post the anser within a few days. Until than, don't rest on your answers because while some were close in telling the details of to date or finding the answer but not seeing it as the answer, (including those just before this post.) None to date have said what's specifically wrong with his picture. The lamp itself for instance is not something to be grounded.

If of help, I'll post a reward - some swag to that person that either re-defines their answer or answers the question correctly to Mayhem's post or figures out at least two of the three possibilities of my description. And when I send swag out, it's more than a single item worth of it - normally it's a overloaded box of it.
 
things I notice that seem odd to me:

1) unlike most lamp fixtures, this lamp does not have a ceramic plug that connects to the Par lamp. Instead, the wires are connected directly to the lamp terminals. That in itself seems wrong to me.

2) these wires, in the first place, are not soldered on. IF you were going to connect wires directly to the lamp, and go through the whole bother of putting heat shrink on them, then why don't you solder it, so it is atleast a LITTLE more permanant??

3) the other thing I noticed about the wires, which is not necessarily wrong, but it does seem odd, is that both wires are red. Now, I konw the leaads to the ceramic plug are usually the same color, if that is the reason for these both being red, then ok. But, where is the ceramic plug then? didi it break and they connected the leads directly to the lamp? Or, did it never have a cermaic plug, and the light company was saving money by selling lamps already installed in lights, without the ceramic plug? or, ever wrose, could those wiers both be hot? That would either blow up the lmap, or atleast make it not work at all. The wires also seem long to me, beecause there is not a cap thingy in the picture, nor infact any other part of the fixture.

that's really all I notice. And ship, with the threefer, i have no idea :) i don't use stagepins at the places I run lights, so I'm not too familiar with them anyways. but you seemt to know what your problem is anyways ;) man, I hope i'm not missing something EXTREMELY obvious about that lamp...I've been working on a few pars alot recently and I really don't noticec anything odd other than what I've already mentioned.
 
A reward? hmmm cool... I'll have to take a wack at this then, even though I have never seen what one of these is SUPPOSTO look like....

Is it me, or are both of the wires comming out of it red? Shouldnt they be two differnt colors?

The wire twisted arround the terminal is something that is obviously not a very safe idea.

Also, the Terminals (at least the closer one) appears to be pulled out, and probably not as secure as they are supposto be.

I think it is just generally unsafe!
 
haha! dude, no competition! i'm not expecting to be right, I just keep looking at the hints Ship gives, and I've rad that post right before his lst one more times than I can count, and I can think of no way to go deeper into what I've already said. if I haven't found something wrong withit yet, then I might never :) the biggest thing to me is the lack of a ceramic plug! that suprises me ALOT!

anyways man it's all good and Ship or Mayhem, could you tell meif I'm still on the right track? specifically with the ceramic thing...I think ALL of us are wondering abut that one!
 
wwell, I agree with you dan, except that if it was just for a day, and you really needed the light, and you knew that it would not be on for long, it would be ok in my mind. There are just points where something breaks and you have to fix it, but the key to that is you have to GO BACK and REDO it later! :) For example, I rewired a Par the other night, I did not have electrical tape. The lwires were not in a placee where they would be touching and I purposefully made them long (these were the leads from the ceramic to the cable thingy) so they would stick out the back a little so they would not heat up enough to melt the duct tape I put on them. (this was a soldering job done to splice to cables) now, I am going to back, possibly tomorrow, and redo that with electrical tape. My solution works, but only because of the other measures I took to ensure it would be safe. This solution in this lamp sould not have been used for longer than one show, it should have been marked down as still needing repair and been repaired properly before further usage.

So, the one thing we have figured out is something IS wrong! :) now, we have all made guesses (well, they are more educated than a plain guess, more like hypothesis) about what is wrong. Mayhem or Ship, can youo tell us once again how close we are?? :)
 
what was suporting the lamp inside the fixture? Was it supported by the wires alone? Was there any sort of strain relief? I hope it wasnt these wires (which look like nmd14/2 but i could be wrong) that were coming out of the fixture and into the plug. I think the one major problem with this is that without a ceramic base installed.....what was keeping the lamp from falling out? My guess is that it was the wires. Thats a scary thought..
 
Ok – well I may have added some confusion to the post by taking the lamp out of the can. I did this to better show the problem, so I actually just cut the wires off and lifted the lamp out.

The main observation here should have been that there was no lamp base fitted.

This would have then focussed your attentions onto the issue at hand. The white ceramic block was actually the base of the lamp, from which the two terminals project.

The correct answer is of course that the method used to wire up this can was unsafe. Here are the reasons why:

1. The way in which the wires were attached to the lamp terminals: The twisted wire could have easily come lose, which would have caused arcing and blown the lamp. A ceramic lamp base should have been used which provides a fully insulated connection. Imagine having someone place his or her hand into the back of this can to rotate the lamp.
2. The heat shrink is not rated for the temperature and would have eventually cracked and fallen off. This would have then made it easier for the wire to work lose, with possibly devastating effects.
3. The wire was solid core (well spotted) and its insulation is also not rated for the temperature. It is also intended for installations where the cable is fixed into position and is not subjected to twisting.

A couple of other issues to note – whilst crimping on a suitable connector or even soldering the cable to the terminals would provide a better solution to simply twisting them on (and a much better electrical connection), it still isn’t a safe way of doing things in this application.

The two solid core wires were in fact soldered onto the active and neutral wires of the tail of the can. As Dan pointed out, this person knew enough, but not enough. Although, this is the only can out of the four that I “rescued” that did not have a lamp base and was incorrectly done.

A lot of you picked out some of these faults, but I was hoping that you would have said why they were wrong. That aside, well done to those who were heading down the correct track, and thank you everyone that had a go. If you like this sort of visual problem, I am sure that we can find some other probing questions to answer.
 
In reply to ships question was the load above what the cable was rated for? Seems too simple to be right.
 
soundman said:
In reply to ships question was the load above what the cable was rated for? Seems too simple to be right.

That's one of three possibilities - especially on a twofer or in this case threefer no matter what plug style is being used. Any time you have the ability to plug in more than one thing, you have a added possibility to overload it. Now the question would be how you can confirm this assumption?

I will attempt to take a photo of this plug in the morning and post it.
 
check the wire ga verse the breaker. If it was 14 ga wire but a 20 amp breaker that would be on the top of my list. Also estimated draw, if they were being used for some non dim circits like moveing lights or a fogger the amps cann add up, espesily when some knuckel head puts in another split down the line.

I dont know if I am reading your post right but you say the gap on one of the pins was not there could that have created enough of a gap to create an arc and then the heat would be responsible for the damage to the wire. Look for signs of welding on pin to be sure.
 
12ga SO wire on a commercially made molded twofer and all you have is the adaptor after it comes back from a show thus in a post use way.

In the second paragraph you are getting close to the third reason. Re look at the first description.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back