Wire House Lights directly into dimmer rack

[covenantseth]

Hello everyone, This is my first post and I am super excited about this forum; I have just discovered it.

I didn't see another forum that specifically answered this question but I need some help.

I am putting together a lighting/video and sound system for a church's new sanctuary. They want their lights to be dimmable. I am picking out the fixtures and equipment for this project and have a few questions. I have never put together a system that included the house lights. We are looking at putting in 25 recessed lights that will dim. Now as far as wiring is concerned. Can you wire a lighting fixture into a 3 prong Edison plug?

So essentially the house lights would go like this (light)---(light)---(light)---(light)---(light)----(edison plug)--->(dimmer rack)

I have looked into the higher end Lephrchan dimmers but am wanting to go cheaper. Is it alright to do this? Is that up to electrical code? Does that make sense?

Also, what is a typical common company that manufactures a 200-300w bare bones recessed incandescant fixture? Thanks your patience with my lack of experience!

 

[Footer]

Yes, you can do this with one big caveat. The second you introduce any type pigtail with a plug, you now have a "transfer switch/road disconnect panel". In order to be up to code, in between the load and the plug you need to have a breaker that is rated for the wiring that is in the walls. This is to protect the building wiring. Now, if you had a dimmer pack that had a terminal strip and you hard wire to it without any type of disconnect, you can forgo the breaker as long as the wiring is rated to the breaker on the dimmer pack. The same is also true if you are going to hard wire "circuits" into conduit and then put in a group of pigtails connecting to the dimmer rack.

 

[Les]

I personally would not go cheaper than Leprecon, NSI/Leviton, etc. Especially for houselights -- that system needs to be very reliable (life safety) and will be used on a constant/continuous basis.

As far as lighting manufacturers go, take a look at Cooper, Prescolite, Lithonia, etc. You mention wanting to do recessed lighting - keep in mind that you can also buy hanging pendant downlights if ceiling height allows it.

Cooper H2320 Incandescent Pendant Mount Downlight:

 

[covenantseth]

Thanks for the replies!

A few things:

1. Do you have some examples that show these dimmers with terminal strips?

2. If I went with a Leprechan for example, does the final wire from the light get terminated into each channel module?

3. What am I looking at price wise for an incandescent recessed light that is about 200-300w?

I am totally new to wiring house lights into a architectural dimmer and not a normal stage dimmer. . . Here is a picture of the sanctuary. I'm just a little unsure of how to setup the dimming and need help.

 

[Les]

Yeah, based on the drawing, it appears that recessed lighting is a better fit. I know things may not be to scale, but the ceiling height appears to be relatively low. Are you sure you need 200-300w? Those lamps are getting somewhat difficult to find, and it won't get any easier moving forward. I believe the 300w R40 is still available as a Stage & Studio lamp - for the time being, at least. Make sure and spec commercial grade lighting, and not residential.

As far as prices go, you'd probably have to contact a local electrical parts house. I imagine all of them will be Cooper dealers, but compare the prices among the others like Prescolite, Lithonia, etc (all of which are popular brands for architectural/commercial lighting). It's difficult to find accurate "street" prices online when it comes to commercial lighting. Avoid quoting through big box stores - they will have to special order commercial lighting, and they mark-up quite a bit for that.

Keep in mind that all permanent wiring must be encased in metallic conduit, and that it will need to be installed by an electrician who is licensed for commercial work.

 

[covenantseth]

The ceiling is 14ft high. The room is 52x52. What would you suggest for a recessed fixture if I am putting in 25 of them? Do you think I need more power or less?

 

[Les]

The ceiling is 14ft high. The room is 52x52. What would you suggest for a recessed fixture if I am putting in 25 of them? Do you think I need more power or less?

I feel like you could get away with less (wattage), but it depends on the spacing of the fixtures, their coverage/beam angle, the footcandles needed (usually measured 3' above floor level), etc.

It might not hurt to contact a commercial lighting designer. Generally, the lighting for these spaces is approached in a manner of determining lighting levels needed --> then determining the fixture (based on photometrics) and how they should be spaced, what wattage they should be lamped at, etc. I know that Lithonia and Cooper have provided interactive templates for this on their website, but I'm not sure if they still do.

 

[covenantseth]

Fixtures are 8' 8" apart from eachother.

The lighting designer wanted about $2k for the lighting design

 

[covenantseth]

What is a good range for lighting levels for a church sanctuary? How many footcandles?

 

[derekleffew]

...The lighting designer wanted about $2k for the lighting design

What is a good range for lighting levels for a church sanctuary? How many footcandles?

These are the kind of questions the $2k lighting designer already knows the answers to. Building codes state different levels of illumination for different purposes. Aesthetically, 2700K light may be more desirable than 5600, but not if a low CRI. You may not be allowed to install 300W incandescent lamps, as a greater efficacy may be required in your jurisdiction. Additionally, in a commercial building, particularly a place of public assembly, you'll need a licensed electrical contractor to perform the work, a permit application for the work to be performed, and an inspection by the AHJ. Emergency / egress lighting must be considered, as well as possibly an architectural lighting control system. You probably don't want the custodian to have to know how to turn on the lightboard in order to turn on the houselight s to vacuum the auditorium. Likewise, wall switch es / entry station s inside each door might be desirable/required, but you don't want an audience member turning on the houselights in the middle of a performance. The houselights might want/need to be fed from a different electrical service than the stage dimmers.

Sorry for more questions than answers. Look at the listed above manufacturers' websites for information on their architectural systems. Keep asking questions; we'll keep providing non-answers.
.

 

[covenantseth]

As of now I believe we will be running the house production lights on a separate system from the functional house lights (i.e. janitor vacuuming). Initially we were thinking of running a master/slave setup with the dimmers and a wall mount button plate.

The electrician on the job will be wiring and installing all of the lights as well as taking care of any emergency lighting installation, permits ect.

From the Cooper template system they have on their site, the fixtures that I had looked at had a rating of 28 footcandles in the whole room.

Thanks for your time and expertize

 

[derekleffew]

...Thanks for your time and expertize

You're (more than) welcome.

However, as much as we like to offer assistance and opinions, we also have a saying around here:
Especially concerning rigging, electrical, and life-safety issues,

When in doubt, always consult a qualified professional, in person. ​

Teh Internet is NO place to learn how to fly people, wire up a panel, or do your own pyro (among many other things).
Perhaps chausman can offer his years of experience and knowledge. He's local to you, and would probably come over and advise if you buy him lunch or a sixpack.
.

 

[Chris15]

Perhaps chausman can offer his years of experience and knowledge. He's local to you, and would probably come over and advise if you buy him lunch or a sixpack.

Controlbooth of course does not condone the supply of alcohol to persons not of legal age in the relevant jurisdiction...

 

[derekleffew]

Who said anything about alcohol? I meant Chase might get six free dimmers.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Scattered thoughts and probably too much but take these comment for what they are worth.

With a 14' ceiling and lights on a basic 10 X 10 ft grid, you will have a lot of glare (or a lot of dark spots band not very even lighting) no matter what fixture you use. I use 60 degrees as a cut off and I think you'll see quickly that 10' apart, there will be dark areas between 60 degree down lights.

You might be able to purchase an architectural dimmer, that would accept a signal (DMX for instance) from your control system, for less than you would spend wiring them to a portable dimmer.

As has been pointed out you may have energy codes that are very tough to meet with good quartz lighting.

You asked about levels and there is a lot of opinion and judgement involved. I use to aim for 25 fc, based on IES, but I find no one complains in a theatre with 10-15 fc, and once came into an existing in use space and found less than 1 fc under the balcony, and no one knew it was too little. I'm sure some folks could not read their program, but they didn't care I guess. Will the room only for worship or also spaghetti suppers and meetings and such, which require much higher levels?

And last, we have moved to almost all LED house lights, but you don't have a high cost to re-lamp quartz (i.e.: a 30-40 ft high unit over fixed seats on tiered flooring is hard to get to; a flat floor and 14' is not so hard) but you do reduce the amount of wiring significantly and omit the dimmers, just running a data line to each unit (and there are even wireless fixtures - but pricier). Also electricity and cooling costs are reduced but that seldom goes far - it’s unfortunately about initial cost, and churches have cash flow and can upgrade/change later.

I'm concerned by egress and emergency. We generally use the regular house lights for emergency with a branch circuit transfer panel (ELTS) but that would not be allowed with "cord and plug connected" fixtures (or shouldn't be - never know what a local official will allow).

You have a number of challenges and your approach of solving one challenge at a time and not doing it in a big picture does not always lead to the best value design.

Good luck!

 

[JD]

You sure you want to go with incandescent lighting? There is a lot of pressure to make incandescent a thing of the past. To do a new install, I would opt for some of the LED solutions out there. We just got done converting about 30k of incandescent house lighting over to LED in my church. 2700 is a must as far as color in a church. The results are impressive, and our wattage draw is down over 85%. Dimming curve is also impressive. Yes, they cut out at about 5% or less, but smooth above that number. Stick with major brands and try before you buy. Not all LEDs are created equal.

 

[covenantseth]

You sure you want to go with incandescent lighting? There is a lot of pressure to make incandescent a thing of the past. To do a new install, I would opt for some of the LED solutions out there. We just got done converting about 30k of incandescent house lighting over to LED in my church. 2700 is a must as far as color in a church. The results are impressive, and our wattage draw is down over 85%. Dimming curve is also impressive. Yes, they cut out at about 5% or less, but smooth above that number. Stick with major brands and try before you buy. Not all LEDs are created equal.

I was originally going to go with the variable white LED fixtures for the whole sanctuary but the fixtures are just to stinking expensive. That way we could have avoided the house lights dimmer and just wire all of the boxes and DMX to all the fixtures.

Other than Incandescent what would you go with? Compact flash doesn't dim as well from what I hear, can be more expensive and LED is really expensive as well. I have about a $13,000 budget for house lights and very basic stage lights. The electricians will be doing the install of permanant fixtures as well as the running of conduit and wiring and such.

I have to wait till monday until this other lighting design place opens, but I would hate to have to pay $2000 for a consulting fee for a general 52x52 foot room house lighting design. . . is that cheap of me?

Here is what I had for breakdown of the basics for the stage and house lights. This would possibly be with the functional house lights separate (ie,big florescent fixtures for vacuuming and such)

style="width: 557px"
|-
| style="height: 17px; width: 321px" | IH-S8C/IH-S8W (Cylinder Light)
| align="right" style="width: 71px" | $218.75
| align="right" style="width: 67px" | 25
| align="right" style="width: 99px" | $5,468.75
|-
| style="height: 23px" | Leprecon Litescape LWD-2400
| align="right" | $3,800
| align="right" | 1
| align="right" | $3,800
|-
| style="height: 20px" | American DJ Opti Par P ETL 575W
| align="right" | $119.99
| align="right" | 6
| align="right" | $719.94
|-
| style="height: 20px" | Elation Opti Tri Par Tri-Color
| align="right" | 399.99
| align="right" | 6
| align="right" | 2399.94
|-
| style="height: 20px" | American DJ DP-DMX20L 4-Channel Dimmer
| align="right" | $199.99
| align="right" | 2
| align="right" | $399.98
|-

 

[chausman]

RickR may be a better local person to contact.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

With your budget of $13,000 for a lighting system don't spend 15% on design fees. But in the end your budget is just too small and unrealistic. (Well, if the consultant can convince your management to spend 2 to 3 or more times what is budgeted, then they're worth it.)

 

[JD]

I was originally going to go with the variable white LED fixtures for the whole sanctuary but the fixtures are just to stinking expensive. That way we could have avoided the house lights dimmer and just wire all of the boxes and DMX to all the fixtures.

Other than Incandescent what would you go with? Compact flash doesn't dim as well from what I hear, can be more expensive and LED is really expensive as well. I have about a $13,000 budget for house lights and very basic stage lights. The electricians will be doing the install of permanant fixtures as well as the running of conduit and wiring and such.

Actually, we went with direct replacement (screw in) LED lamps in the old incandescent fixtures. All of our 95 watt PAR38s were changed to 17 watt LED (~$38), all the 75 watt A style lamps were changed to 12.5w LED (~$23), all the 75 watt R30's got changed to 13w LED (~$29). Over 100 lamps were changed out in phase 1 resulting in a massive reduction in house light energy. As the PAR38s were at 40 foot height, the savings in labor over the expected 50,000 hour life should also be massive. (To say nothing of not having to look at burned out bulbs for years until you can justify another re-lamping.)

Another advantage is I could now free up about ten 3.6kw dimmers and use them for something else, although I haven't gotten around to it yet.