Lighting upgrade or yippee federal money!

[Aurorastage]

Howdy,
A week ago it was mention to me that I had about a million dollars, leftover money from a multi-school lighting upgrade, to upgrade its medium sized (for the area) high school theater. Little about the space: it has approximately 450 seating, 3 front of house pipes, 3 on stage electrics, a cyc electric, 42 total line sets. Currently 180 2.4 dimmers in the LAST CD-80 rack in town, running off an expression console.

Today they opted to try to move it up two years to this summer... So I have questions and research and very limited amounts of time so I can kick it off to the designers/engineers, same company that did my 2.6 mil upgrade on my large theater. I kicked out the list following to the School District project manager as a schedule/scope starter place, but need to finish up and edit anything out of the ordinary.

Also I have some. . . "backup units" specced for flushing out parts of my main theater, as well as trying to update my 3rd venue. Confused yet? Also there are no real theater techs (students) in the schools, the district contracts my business and I to oversee in school and outside user groups, so almost all tech work is done by individual techs, with limited knowledge students helping. I'm trying to fix this but the schools aren't helping much.


Questions:
1. Followspots: need to replace my two Ultra Arc 180 Rh/ST (believe correct model). Its around 100-150 foot throw from a elevated booth position, I honestly wouldn't know where to begin.

2. CYC lights: Will measure CYC size tonight and distance of the batten, but any brand suggestions would be wonderful. Guesstimate measurements of 20X40. I personally like my old 3 cell cyc, saturate color top to bottom *drool*

3. Console: Ion versus Element. I've been using an Ion in my main house, but was wondering about the similarities of use with a Element at my smaller venues. They're both command line based i believe, but are they different enough that I'll get that "pause" when my brain switches between buildings.


New unit list
ETC Source Four 5° 6
ETC Source Four 10° 6
ETC Source Four 14° 20
ETC Source Four 19° 40
ETC Source Four 26° 40
ETC Source Four 36° 30
ETC Source Four 50° 16
ETC Source Four 70° 4


ETC Source Four Zoom 15°-30° 30
ETC Source Four Zoom 25°-50° 24

ETC Source Four Fresnel 40
ETC Source Four Parnel 12

cyc lights 6 ????
Follow spots 2 ????

Lamp all Source four units with HPL 750x


Accessories
Net3 Radio focus remote 1
7" Barndoors for ETC Fresnels 12
HPL 750X lamps 100 (extra)


Dimming System and Controls
Ion/Element dependant on budget/controls 1
unison paradigm for works and house lighting control 1-2
sensor+ installation racks 48 module/CEM control mondule 2-3


Any information or advice able to be provided would be greatly appreciated.

 

[DuckJordan]

Howdy,
A week ago it was mention to me that I had about a million dollars, leftover money from a multi-school lighting upgrade, to upgrade its medium sized (for the area) high school theater. Little about the space: it has approximately 450 seating, 3 front of house pipes, 3 on stage electrics, a cyc electric, 42 total line sets. Currently 180 2.4 dimmers in the LAST CD-80 rack in town, running off an expression console.

Today they opted to try to move it up two years to this summer... So I have questions and research and very limited amounts of time so I can kick it off to the designers/engineers, same company that did my 2.6 mil upgrade on my large theater. I kicked out the list following to the School District project manager as a schedule/scope starter place, but need to finish up and edit anything out of the ordinary.

Also I have some. . . "backup units" specced for flushing out parts of my main theater, as well as trying to update my 3rd venue. Confused yet? Also there are no real theater techs (students) in the schools, the district contracts my business and I to oversee in school and outside user groups, so almost all tech work is done by individual techs, with limited knowledge students helping. I'm trying to fix this but the schools aren't helping much.


Questions:
1. Followspots: need to replace my two Ultra Arc 180 Rh/ST (believe correct model). Its around 100-150 foot throw from a elevated booth position, I honestly wouldn't know where to begin.

2. CYC lights: Will measure CYC size tonight and distance of the batten, but any brand suggestions would be wonderful. Guesstimate measurements of 20X40. I personally like my old 3 cell cyc, saturate color top to bottom *drool*

3. Console: Ion versus Element. I've been using an Ion in my main house, but was wondering about the similarities of use with a Element at my smaller venues. They're both command line based i believe, but are they different enough that I'll get that "pause" when my brain switches between buildings.


New unit list
ETC Source Four 5° 6
ETC Source Four 10° 6
ETC Source Four 14° 20
ETC Source Four 19° 40
ETC Source Four 26° 40
ETC Source Four 36° 30
ETC Source Four 50° 16
ETC Source Four 70° 4


ETC Source Four Zoom 15°-30° 30
ETC Source Four Zoom 25°-50° 24

ETC Source Four Fresnel 40
ETC Source Four Parnel 12

cyc lights 6 ????
Follow spots 2 ????

Lamp all Source four units with HPL 750x


Accessories
Net3 Radio focus remote 1
7" Barndoors for ETC Fresnels 12
HPL 750X lamps 100 (extra)


Dimming System and Controls
Ion/Element dependant on budget/controls 1
unison paradigm for works and house lighting control 1-2
sensor+ installation racks 48 module/CEM control mondule 2-3


Any information or advice able to be provided would be greatly appreciated.

Are they starting from scratch as to what to place in there or are their restrictions as Lighting positions and other architextural things are staying the same. Is there a reason why you want to remove the CD-80 system? They are quite strong things and last much longer than I would expect them to. We can't really help you with fixture specs without knowing throw distances and other such but it looks like you are on the right track.

 

[Aurorastage]

Architectural is staying the same, so my battens and front of house positions are not moving. I actually have very annoyingly placed sound baffles that I have to cheat around in places. . . I wish I could move them. The varying size's of units are more than adequate for the space.

Replacing the CD-80 and its works system is a fairly high priority, nearly 30-35 years of service (I'm trying to track down all the systems original install specs and timelines) and is starting to have major issues, as well as parts are starting to be difficult for the schools to locate or fix. Frankly I can afford the 350k-400k to install new racks and controls, as this money can ONLY be used for lighting, may as well update a bit.

 

[Footer]

Before you go dumping the CD80's, retrofit kits can be installed for a 20th of a new rack and will essentially give you new dimmers. Do you need any new infrastructure? Do you have circuits where they need to be? Do you have a company switch onstage? Whats your DMX/ACN distribution look like? Do you have switched 120v and 208v circuits? What is the facility's cable situation? Are you running a rep plot where scrollers/seachanges would be good to have? Have you looked at some of the newer LED products out there... some are ready for prime time. A million dollars sounds like a lot, but it can get burnt fast, especially in a dimmer room. I would take a step back before you go pulling those CD80s and decide if that really is the way to go. Its hard to kill one of those units.

 

[JWilsonLX]

The 12 PARnels seem a bit out of place. I'd replace those with some Selador Desires, if the money is there, or just plain old PARs(w/ lens sets) if it's not. Can the money be spent on intelligent fixtures, or do you have some in stock already? If the answer to either is "yes," I'd go with the Ion. It won't cost more than $4k-5k, depending on system specs, and it'll be much more friendly with movers.

 

[SteveB]

Ditto Kyles suggestion. Unless you are having issues with the dimmers, there's not a whole lot to be gained upgrading to Sensor. Possibly the ability to swap a module pair to relays, but at the lamp end, the fixture won't know if it's a 30 year old CD80 in good shape, or a new Sensor. In general there's not much different inside a CD80 then a Sensor, the solid state switching technology is mostly the same and there's a lot to be gained by simply upgrading. Johnson systems makes very nice upgrades: Johnson Systems Inc.

As to relay's, I'd be putting in a lot of dedicated power that's DMX controllable, either SmartSwitch or Sensor with relays. One advantage to Sensor relays is that they can convert to dimmers when needed, but in general think to the future with more ML"'s and LED's that will need dedicated power. The SmartSwitch advantage is they're cheaper as well as available in 208v versions. Note that all this DMX controlled power is readily controlled as normalled thru the Paradigm, then when needed thru the console. Very versatile in use (hazers, fans, etc...)

Also lay in a backbone of Ethernet. Really, really get this done. There are so many reasons why and it's so cheap as part of the overall. It pays off in a week.

Get a lot of City Theatrical 3" color frame extenders for the S4 25/50 zooms as well as the ParNels. In fact, skip the ParNels and just get more S4 fresnels. The 25/50 zoom at 750 fries color at certain zoom settings. I have 64 such zooms, all with extenders.

As to follow spots ?. You kind of have to demo to see what works. I have heard good things about Robert Juliat, but I have a 120ft throw and use Lycian 3kw xenons and would not go any lower in wattage. With all the new gear you will see a subsequent increase in intensity that the spots will have to cut through, and it's always easy to make a too bright follow spot dimmer while impossible to make a too dim spot brighter.

Console ?. Ion all the way. If you already have an Ion then you have zero learning curve for another, so trained operators exist, as well as having built in backup if needed. Note that there's a lot of difference between the Ion and the Element, enough dumb down to make it a different console is many ways. I'd also maybe get touch screens and put them in the larger space if you don't have them already. 2 Touchscreens makes an Ion into a console that has 80% of the capabilities of an Eos, which costs 2-3 times more, ESPECIALLY if you have ML's or LED's.

 

[Les]

I would double your amount of barndoors. Have one for each area in a 15-area plot, if need be.

 

[Footer]

As to relay's, I'd be putting in a lot of dedicated power that's DMX controllable, either SmartSwitch or Sensor with relays. One advantage to Sensor relays is that they can convert to dimmers when needed, but in general think to the future with more ML"'s and LED's that will need dedicated power. The SmartSwitch advantage is they're cheaper as well as available in 208v versions. Note that all this DMX controlled power is readily controlled as normalled thru the Paradigm, then when needed thru the console. Very versatile in use (hazers, fans, etc...)

CD80 relay packs to exist as well as constant power units. Might have to do some digging to find them, but they are out there.

 

[shiben]

I would double your amount of barndoors. Have one for each area in a 15-area plot, if need be.

I would have a barndoor for every fresnel in your inventory. Same with tophats and color extenders. They take up a bunch of space, but when you need one and cant get one, its all the difference. Also, I would Get enough cyc lights to do a groundrow and a top row, maybe use some strip lights of some sort? I like lycian spots, 3k sounds about good... Also, what kind of lighting gear is in there now in terms of instruments? If you have enough instruments that still work, maybe go less in your new purchases and get some seachangers or something... I personally would think buying 200+ new units is probably a lot, especially if you have working lights already. Now if you dont, I like your proportions, but maybe less zooms, more fixt tubes. Personal preference. Cut the parnels, get more than 12 PAR EAs with lens kits. Like 50 of them. If you ever want to do a rock show, you will be happy. They work nice in theatre too.

 

[DaveySimps]

I echo the thoughts about updating your CD80 rack. I just did this in an old space we renovated and it helped to stretch the budget significantly. If I had that type of budget in a multi use space, I would be looking into Right Arms / Icues and seachangers. I also suggest installing a dedicated lighting network. It is cheap in the scheme of things and will pay off.

~Dave

 

[Aurorastage]

tail end of a 14 hour day, will be more after I get a chance to read through everything, i greatly appreciate your help everyone

1. ignore the parnels, they are going elsewhere to flush out that horrible little system. long story. About 1/4 of the source four units are being labeled as "backups" for the purposes of the project and will later be relocated to additional theaters.

2. currently NO dmx/ethernet run (working on getting it) hadn't included in my post, but I am pushing for it

3. Honestly, there is very limited technical capability in this town. I'm 1 of two non education techs (the other guy runs a local sound production company, solo) within 300 miles who work "fulltime." I'll be the first to admit I'm well behind the lower 48 curve knowledge wise. This is a very strange place. A large number of the problems I have are just due to lack of maintenance and carelessness and ignorance of users. Anyone who was a clue leaves town. Google/wikipedia Fairbanks/North Pole, Alaska

4. Hesitant on moving intelligent fixtures in this particular venue, as it is rarely used outside of a failing drama program, and sparse concerts. although i could use them at my larger space thats booked almost every day. . . tehe

5. dimmer racks . . . I'll touch on this after a bit of reading on all the posts, I'll catchup and answer in the morning when I get back to a place with internet.

6. I can make suggestions but the final say is of course up to the school district and the will of the designers. 90% of the time they listen to me though

I will definitely look at any and all suggestions/comments and try not to let me own lack of knowledge scare me from getting new shinnies. . . i learn quick

 

[derekleffew]

... 1. Followspots: need to replace my two Ultra Arc 180 Rh/ST (believe correct model). Its around 100-150 foot throw from a elevated booth position, I honestly wouldn't know where to begin. ...

First, measure the throw distance from spot booth to DSC. There's a big difference between 100' and 150'. You want a unit that provides at least 100 F.C. at your throw distance. I wouldn't recommend a xenon source for a non-professional application, so that limits you to HMI or metal-halide sources. Strong and Lycian make the best followspots.

 

[Sony]

First, measure the throw distance from spot booth to DSC. There's a big difference between 100' and 150'. You want a unit that provides at least 100 F.C. at your throw distance. I wouldn't recommend a xenon source for a non-professional application, so that limits you to HMI or metal-halide sources. Strong and Lycian make the best followspots.

Don't forget about Robert Juliat! the 2500w Cyrano or Aramis would probably work great in your application! I have two Topaze units in my inventory and I love them! Perfect for my 90-100ft throw.

 

[Kelite]

I will definitely look at any and all suggestions/comments and try not to let me own lack of knowledge scare me from getting new shinnies. . . i learn quick

As DaveySimps noted, a Right Arm can offer an advantage. Tight spaces, such as working around the sound baffles, are exactly where the Right Arm shines. I sent an email to you with a link explaining the Apollo Right Arm. Please let us know if you have any questions regarding its use!

Congrats with your budget, I'm sure you'll investigate the gear and make good choices-

 

[PeteEngel]

Considering LED fixtures, both Profiles and Fresnels, in the mix of fixtures would allow you to effectively continue to use the CD-80 pack, with plenty of spares for the future, and still lower power needs without having to replace an expensive component of your new system (unless you want new dimmers). If LED's are considered, make sure they are simple and upgradeable. The more complex, operation and maintenance, the more you will have to send them out for repairs as opposed to affecting repairs on site, especially with variable crews. 100'-150' is good range for RJ medium throw fixtures, Topaze/Super Korrigan (1200w) or Victor (1800w), though i would suggest the 1200w fixtures. Anything larger (3k Xenon???) is a waste.

 

[Aurorastage]

Going to make the suggestion to for the School District and the engineers to take a look at the retrofit for the CD80 racks. Most of my problems where all due to the control base, and I actually have a large number of the bits and pieces from when the 4 CD80's in my large theater were swapped over the sensor racks, I kept everything I could store somewhere as I had no idea when money would be available to upgrade/change.

question:

1. Would there be any foreseeable problems with a retrofit on the theatrical racks if i replaced the works/house light side (Strand environ II) with a Paradigm rack and control setup? This theater does need a lot of work light and controlling those work lights loving. Locations of things are. . . rather annoying and useless. I also know the School District absolutely loves the two LED control stations, as well the push buttons and wall panel sliders that were recently installed in my larger venue.

2. Any other possible questions that might be asked people who know very little about theater, but have a deep love for power and controls of which I might need to answer on short notice.

Thanks
-Tom

P.S. looking into swapping in some intelligent fixtures for transfer to my larger venue with the excess money.

 

[Footer]

Going to make the suggestion to for the School District and the engineers to take a look at the retrofit for the CD80 racks. Most of my problems where all due to the control base, and I actually have a large number of the bits and pieces from when the 4 CD80's in my large theater were swapped over the sensor racks, I kept everything I could store somewhere as I had no idea when money would be available to upgrade/change.

question:

1. Would there be any foreseeable problems with a retrofit on the theatrical racks if i replaced the works/house light side (Strand environ II) with a Paradigm rack and control setup? This theater does need a lot of work light and controlling those work lights loving. Locations of things are. . . rather annoying and useless. I also know the School District absolutely loves the two LED control stations, as well the push buttons and wall panel sliders that were recently installed in my larger venue.

2. Any other possible questions that might be asked people who know very little about theater, but have a deep love for power and controls of which I might need to answer on short notice.

Thanks
-Tom

P.S. looking into swapping in some intelligent fixtures for transfer to my larger venue with the excess money.

It really just depends on which way you go. Do your theatrical racks control your house lighting? Any of the Unison systems will output DMX so they will work with any type of control you want. You could also throw in a C21 retrofit kit into the CD80 rack. It works rather well and is a bit "smarter" then the Johnson Systems kit. That will give you ACN into the rack along with a web control interface. It also give you the ability to use Strands off the shelf architectural controls.

 

[Goph704]

Here's my two cents. We just got a group of Altman econ cyc lights in that work great. If you speck the Desires out as down light and use the Econo cycs for the cyc I think you'll have a lot of color options to play around with. I'm with the Retro fit for the strands and it sounds more like you need updates as opposed to full out replacements for your house lights. I recommend Strong for a spot light. Good luck!

 

[JWilsonLX]

Not that a CD-80 retrofit is inherently a bad idea(certainly a money saver), but I think there's something to be said for a new dimming system when you have "the LAST CD-80 rack in town." If a CD-80 module craps out, you may be SOL, but, depending on what others have, it could be a drive across town to borrow a module.

 

[DuckJordan]

The op has stated that he did save parts for it. I would say just get an upgrade for it and as footer said unison spits out dmx and you'll still need the cd80 receiving dmx for the ion to control it. As far as AUTOMATED fixtures it may be a good idea to get a few but remember they do require maintenance and from the sounds of it this space doesn't get much.

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