Batteries...
- Thread starterphotoatdv
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I've thought for a long time that the only major difference between the standard and "industrial" versions of most batteries is bulk packaging. I do not know if they have a higher amp/hour.
I would consider any alkaline battery that is supplying 1.25v or less as dead, especially in mics or any wireless gear. Put it in a clock, or anything else and it may be fine. The biggest thing to remember about alkaline batteries is they have a very steep end of life power curve. They are designed to put out as much voltage as possible for a given time then they die extremely quickly.
I would consider any alkaline battery that is supplying 1.25v or less as dead, especially in mics or any wireless gear. Put it in a clock, or anything else and it may be fine. The biggest thing to remember about alkaline batteries is they have a very steep end of life power curve. They are designed to put out as much voltage as possible for a given time then they die extremely quickly.
Not to hijack the thread but because this is in general advice I would recommend that everyone use rechargeable batteries. It saved my school a ton of money. If you are unsure if a battery is dead throw it on the charger. They are a bit costly to purchase chargers and batteries but the batteries last a long time.
I have a friend who used to be an engineer, designing batteries for one of the major battery manufacturers. I'll ask her and let you know what she says.
I do know that there is absolutely NO difference between Duracell and Energizer standard alkaline batteries and the cheap store brand alkaline batteries you get at places like Costco and Walmart. They are all made in the same factory and just get a different label on them. I would suspect that the same is true of the industrial model but I'll check.
I do know that there is absolutely NO difference between Duracell and Energizer standard alkaline batteries and the cheap store brand alkaline batteries you get at places like Costco and Walmart. They are all made in the same factory and just get a different label on them. I would suspect that the same is true of the industrial model but I'll check.
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as a lighting tech, I don't claim to know anything about sound, but the sound tech in my theatre will NEVER use rechargable batteries for wireless mics, apparently they cause problems. I don't exactly know what the problems were, but I would be cautious in using them, make sure you rehearse with them enough that you know they are trustworthy.
Industrial batteries such as the Duracell ProCell or Energizer Industrial are the only batteries the industry use from what I can tell even after a few years of industrial grade re-chargables tried. No doubt that modern rechargables for a budget are a better option and more dependable where it won't really piss off production if a few batteries start going bad and the talent has to get a quick change.
Bigger productions can afford to use batteries once or twice in relying on them aways working and if they don't it is a huge problem. Used to be after a show or two, you now had Walkman batteries.. not so useful at this point as a concept in not being either cost effective or good for the environment but dependable still.
What ever the case, don't forget to recycle such batteries when bad.
Bigger productions can afford to use batteries once or twice in relying on them aways working and if they don't it is a huge problem. Used to be after a show or two, you now had Walkman batteries.. not so useful at this point as a concept in not being either cost effective or good for the environment but dependable still.
What ever the case, don't forget to recycle such batteries when bad.
JChenault
Well-Known Member
My understanding is that there are differences in rechargeable in terms of output voltage, discharge rate, and reliability.
A nicad battery does not put out the same voltage as an alkaline. The alkaline puts out 1.5 volts. The nicad about 1.35.
The alkaline battery slowly drops it's voltage as it is used. The nicad stays closer to full voltage then quickly goes to nothing.
After a while nicad batteries stop taking a good charge. There is no way ( as far as I know) to pre-test the battery to see if it will hold a charge. Alkaline batteries are more reliable in this regard.
A nicad battery does not put out the same voltage as an alkaline. The alkaline puts out 1.5 volts. The nicad about 1.35.
The alkaline battery slowly drops it's voltage as it is used. The nicad stays closer to full voltage then quickly goes to nothing.
After a while nicad batteries stop taking a good charge. There is no way ( as far as I know) to pre-test the battery to see if it will hold a charge. Alkaline batteries are more reliable in this regard.
kiwitechgirl
Well-Known Member
Really? Most of the noise boys here have no problems with them, and we've been using them for years now. They do stop taking charge eventually, but our sound operator puts a meter across them when they come off the charger if he's at all suspicious. We bought new ones a year ago and they've had reasonable use since then (six shows a week for 3 months, then six shows a week for five weeks mid-year, and they're now onto the second 3-month stint) and they've been absolutely faultless. We did buy decent ones (Sanyo Eneloop) and despite the fact they're actually rated at 1.2v rather than 1.5, our Sennheiser radio mic packs have no issues with them.
shiben
Well-Known Member
Well, around here Duracell pro-Cells are the only batteries trusted, pulled every time the packs drop 2 bars on the battery indicator. Now as to if they last longer, the answer is yes, based on my oh-so scientific testing using an Xbox 360 controller. I can get nearly twice as much play time with the pro cells as opposed to regular ones. I also use pro cells exclusively on all my personal stuff, excepting my Surefire, which takes special Surefire lithium batteries. I really wish they could extend the life on those from 11 hours to maybe 50 or so...
Just checked with my friend who used to be a battery engineer for Duracell. It's been a few years so she can't speak to the current line but she's pretty sure that it's the same formulation as the regular line. Just packaged in bulk. Again she said they made a Lot of store brand batteries and just changed the label.
waynehoskins
Active Member
Several years ago my college theatre and my church got, at about the same time, a super good deal on some off brand batteries. One was labeled "Fred's Super Batteries", and I forget the other, and I don't remember which is which. At college we were about to put up a musical, so we used the Fred's (or whatever the other one was) batteries for a rehearsal. One rehearsal, fresh from the cardboard tray they came on, and every blessed one of them was completely dead by intermission. We had similar luck with the ones at the church.
A couple of years ago I was going with the band to a gig, probably a church gig, and needed a 9V battery for one of the wireless thingies. Picked up a Danelectro-badged battery for too much money at the Guitar Center (they got things like strings and picks). "Vintage formulation" and "better tone" were the selling points on this battery's packaging, which was a huge red flag. Yep, dead in a half hour.
I've heard for some time that the Copper Tops and the Procells are the same inside; same for regular Energizer and Industrials. I trust them all about equally.
I don't use rechargeables for several reasons. Everything I use them in (and it's three radio kits at the church, one battery change a week) uses 9V batteries, and until only recently we weren't able to manufacture a rechargeable battery in that package that had enough terminal voltage. I've heard the bleeding-edge designs can. That's strike one. Two, even for 1.5V cells they're relatively new (10 years) to the market. The last one is trust.
I don't trust the technology yet, even for the 1.5V cells, not enough to rely on it. Other guys do trust it and have several years of cost savings and reliable service to back it up. More than the technology, I don't trust me, because you have to put the batteries on the charger and keep up with hot and dead batteries. I trust a Procell. It comes directly out of the box, only then does the cap come off (and the cap goes straight into the trashcan), and directly into the device the battery goes. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I have a hot fresh battery in there that I can trust for X hours of continued service.
I did have an interesting encounter with Energizer Industrials the other month. I pulled some, with the caps on them, from a box in our workbox at the shop. Just for grins (I never do this) I put a voltmeter on one just before I was going to put it in a transmitter. Less than 7 volts. Two others, caps still on, terminal voltages way less than 8; I think one was 5 point something. Uber dead. That's either attributable to shelf life (no idea how old these were) or to prior use (and the last user, many months ago, put the caps back on heavily-used batteries). While I don't blame that on Energizer, since they probably were just used and recapped, I can say I haven't had such a failure with a Procell.
Batteries are cheap insurance. At the end of the day, it all comes down to which battery you trust.
A couple of years ago I was going with the band to a gig, probably a church gig, and needed a 9V battery for one of the wireless thingies. Picked up a Danelectro-badged battery for too much money at the Guitar Center (they got things like strings and picks). "Vintage formulation" and "better tone" were the selling points on this battery's packaging, which was a huge red flag. Yep, dead in a half hour.
I've heard for some time that the Copper Tops and the Procells are the same inside; same for regular Energizer and Industrials. I trust them all about equally.
I don't use rechargeables for several reasons. Everything I use them in (and it's three radio kits at the church, one battery change a week) uses 9V batteries, and until only recently we weren't able to manufacture a rechargeable battery in that package that had enough terminal voltage. I've heard the bleeding-edge designs can. That's strike one. Two, even for 1.5V cells they're relatively new (10 years) to the market. The last one is trust.
I don't trust the technology yet, even for the 1.5V cells, not enough to rely on it. Other guys do trust it and have several years of cost savings and reliable service to back it up. More than the technology, I don't trust me, because you have to put the batteries on the charger and keep up with hot and dead batteries. I trust a Procell. It comes directly out of the box, only then does the cap come off (and the cap goes straight into the trashcan), and directly into the device the battery goes. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I have a hot fresh battery in there that I can trust for X hours of continued service.
I did have an interesting encounter with Energizer Industrials the other month. I pulled some, with the caps on them, from a box in our workbox at the shop. Just for grins (I never do this) I put a voltmeter on one just before I was going to put it in a transmitter. Less than 7 volts. Two others, caps still on, terminal voltages way less than 8; I think one was 5 point something. Uber dead. That's either attributable to shelf life (no idea how old these were) or to prior use (and the last user, many months ago, put the caps back on heavily-used batteries). While I don't blame that on Energizer, since they probably were just used and recapped, I can say I haven't had such a failure with a Procell.
Batteries are cheap insurance. At the end of the day, it all comes down to which battery you trust.
Just want to clarify a couple of things that have come up before in this discussion. My Friend worked for Duracell and said that most of the ALKALINE, major store brand batteries are exactly the same as the standard Duracell/Energizers. No, you shouldn't buy the dollarstore batteries, "Fred's Batteries, or any "heavy duty" batteries. However major store brand's are often okay. For example: Costco, Wallmart, Sam's Club, my friend specifically mentioned CSV being made exactly the same as Duracell alkalines. These major store brands are all mass produced by either Duracell or Energizer on the same assembly line using the same internal materials. Yes you should test them first of course. Personally I've been using the Costco AA's for years... about 11 or 12 cents each and they have a great life. I've also bought a lot of Rayvac and Wallmart brand 9 volts. I've never noticed a difference in life vs. the Durcell/Energizers.
In recent years there is a whole new class of super batteries. These definitely pack more charge in them than the standard alkalines. But they cost a lot more too. I'm not saying a Costco AA is the same as one of the new super lithium batteries.
As for wireless mics and rechargables: Modern wireless mics are quite a bit more efficient than the old ones were. Many of them get more than 8 hours of life. These new mics are also great with GOOD rechargeable batteries. Do your homework and find good NiMH batteries with the highest mAh capacity. There is a great variety of mAh so be careful. Not researching the mAh on a rechargeable battery is like buying lamps without knowing the lumen output. Buy two sets of batteries, keep one in the charger. You are set.
In recent years there is a whole new class of super batteries. These definitely pack more charge in them than the standard alkalines. But they cost a lot more too. I'm not saying a Costco AA is the same as one of the new super lithium batteries.
As for wireless mics and rechargables: Modern wireless mics are quite a bit more efficient than the old ones were. Many of them get more than 8 hours of life. These new mics are also great with GOOD rechargeable batteries. Do your homework and find good NiMH batteries with the highest mAh capacity. There is a great variety of mAh so be careful. Not researching the mAh on a rechargeable battery is like buying lamps without knowing the lumen output. Buy two sets of batteries, keep one in the charger. You are set.
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Ok, let's correct a couple of things that have been said that aren't quite right and then we'll move to my opinions...
NiCd batteries have a cell voltage of 1.2v vs 1.5v of an alkaline.
NiCd also suffer memory effect if not treated in the correct way
A "heavy duty" battery is a Carbon Zinc battery, a completely different chemistry to an alkaline battery and thus with different discharge characteristics.
Metering a battery just using a meter and the test leads is for the most part a waste of time. Yes it will pick up some dead batteries but it is also liable to produce many a false positive. See what happens is as the battery dies it's internal resistance increases. When you meter with a DMM and no load there is minimal current and thus minimal voltage drop across said internal resistance. But when you apply a load, that internal resistance comes into play and you have a voltage divider established. Thus the correct way to test a battery involves using a dummy load and a meter. A 12v light globe or the like from an electronics retailer is a suitable sort of test load.
The question of rechargeables and reuse of batteries comes down to the level of production. Can you afford to lose the mic mid show? If not, then a fresh alkaline every show is the order of the day, sometimes with a battery change during interval as well. If it's less critical then rechargables or second use batteries are fine.
A TV show filming 12 hours a day can easily go through 200 batteries in a day... You don't want to know how many batteries will be consumed during the Vancouver Olympics...
NiCd batteries have a cell voltage of 1.2v vs 1.5v of an alkaline.
NiCd also suffer memory effect if not treated in the correct way
A "heavy duty" battery is a Carbon Zinc battery, a completely different chemistry to an alkaline battery and thus with different discharge characteristics.
Metering a battery just using a meter and the test leads is for the most part a waste of time. Yes it will pick up some dead batteries but it is also liable to produce many a false positive. See what happens is as the battery dies it's internal resistance increases. When you meter with a DMM and no load there is minimal current and thus minimal voltage drop across said internal resistance. But when you apply a load, that internal resistance comes into play and you have a voltage divider established. Thus the correct way to test a battery involves using a dummy load and a meter. A 12v light globe or the like from an electronics retailer is a suitable sort of test load.
The question of rechargeables and reuse of batteries comes down to the level of production. Can you afford to lose the mic mid show? If not, then a fresh alkaline every show is the order of the day, sometimes with a battery change during interval as well. If it's less critical then rechargables or second use batteries are fine.
A TV show filming 12 hours a day can easily go through 200 batteries in a day... You don't want to know how many batteries will be consumed during the Vancouver Olympics...
shiben
Well-Known Member
Are we going to include the mass monitoring FM receivers? The Beijing ceremonies had some 12 THOUSAND of them and so the battery numbers are going to add up very quickly. Good thing most batteries are made in China then ey?
Cashwalker
Member
And then find out what they do with all the waste batteries. (Toss or recycle?) Might be a good idea for one of the investigative news segments.
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