I completely agree. The Ion fills all the needs,except directly filling riders, and as you say most don't carry LDs anyway, so the Hog would be overkill and limiting at the same time.
upgrade of lighting control board - need advice
- Thread startertopshelf1227
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jglodeklights
Well-Known Member
Third opinion here?
Buy an Element. 250 or 500 channels will probably be more than overkill since either way you get 1024 outputs. Remember, EOS family products define a channel as an entire fixture/device or grouping of fixtures/devices with identical outputs, not just one parameter of that fixture/device. Faders for subs/channels are built in.
I also question touch screens with an ION/EOS/Element. With properly laid out palette sheets and magic sheets, accessing palettes and channels from the hard keys can often be quicker than trying to access them via the touchscreen- you don't have to move your hand from where it already is to hit the appropriate palette button and then enter the appropriate number. I've used the ION with touch screens, touch screen, 1 screen and 1 touch screen. I've only touched the touchscreen to play around......
Buy an Element. 250 or 500 channels will probably be more than overkill since either way you get 1024 outputs. Remember, EOS family products define a channel as an entire fixture/device or grouping of fixtures/devices with identical outputs, not just one parameter of that fixture/device. Faders for subs/channels are built in.
I also question touch screens with an ION/EOS/Element. With properly laid out palette sheets and magic sheets, accessing palettes and channels from the hard keys can often be quicker than trying to access them via the touchscreen- you don't have to move your hand from where it already is to hit the appropriate palette button and then enter the appropriate number. I've used the ION with touch screens, touch screen, 1 screen and 1 touch screen. I've only touched the touchscreen to play around......
Ironicly, just last night we had the first Ion come through that I have ever seen on tour... and it was for a R&R show (Tedeschi Trucks Band).
Use the Keypad ?, How quaint, as Mr. Scott would say. Who runs a Hog or Grand MA by typing channel numbers ?. No one. Same with the Eos and Ion touch screens.
Remember this is busking - AKA running live, not cuing a theater show, for which the keypad is faster, although if an LD is smart, then build a LOT of groups and I can then grab them faster on the TS then typing.
I have 6 ML's on 6 different channels. If I have to type "3, 0, 1, thru, 3, 0, 6, Enter" everytime I want to access that group, as opposed to having the left touch screen (as shown in the photo) with "Fix All" as a one button push (Or Fix,1, Fix 2, Fix 5, Fix 6" for the outsides on 4 buttons) which is faster ?. Likewise I am not pressing keys to get these fixtures to a Preset (set up on the right touch screen). "Recall From, Preset" and I'm done, or a "Sneak", Preset" for a timed fade. I pretty much never have to touch the keypad and can layout the Direct Selects on screen in an order that somewhat mirrors the stage. This is immensely faster then any other method I've tried, including using subs.
Best thing I've used in a conventional desk.
shiben
Well-Known Member
I wouldnt say no one runs a hog or Grand MA or EOS by typing channel numbers. Just not during busking. Its just different parts of the industry, I would imagine... In this application, touch screens are going to be the friend of our OP. In a theater cuing sessions, using touch screens may or may not happen depending on what exactly is happening, but using a TS is a lot of work compared to just hitting up thing on the keypad for lots of individual channel notes.
meatpopsicle
Active Member
Touch Screens are a lot of work? Really? You make the same key strokes for a group, and then it shows up graphicly on a touch screen direct select and its one touch to call it up as opposed to 3, 4 or 5 key strokes. I understand that that each style of programming has its own preferences....but really, for movers, I can't stress enough how incredibly usefull the touch screens are. And buying an Element instead of an Ion consigns him to never being able to upgrade. Either software or hardware.
Who here, in this thread, actually runs Ions?
Not true. Element gets the same software updates on the same release cycle as every other console in the Eos family. Of course, some Eos/Ion/Gio-specific features are not available. Hardware limitations are what they are.
2 Ions, both with 2x10 fader wings.
Element wasn't available when we bought the first one, and we picked an Ion over an Element because the limited feature set of Element makes it different enough from it's bigger siblings to almost require retraining. OTOH, I am glad that ETC made the ML control developed for Element available to Ion.
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A better question would be who actually runs an Ion with DUAL touch screens and busks one-off's with movers and LED's ?.
An Ion without touch screens on a straight play, cued show is a joy to run. There isn't a whole lot the touch screens do to help when the LD is asking "Channel, 1 thru 8 at 25 %. Keying that in is the fastest method especially if it's all conventionals.
Unless the LD is a Steve Shelly type and asks for Group 1 (Ch's 1 thru 8) at 25%, then it's a toss up as to whether it's faster to press the Group button on the Direct Select screen or key it in. If the LD asks for Groups, 1, +, 3, +, 5, +, 8, Enter"then the TS is so much faster as there is no "+, Group" to keep pressing. It's 4 buttons on the TS.
One key is to get the screens in range so you are not killing yourself reaching, so layout is critical.
Two weeks ago I cued our Dept. of Theater show that is on our mainstage as an in-the-round setup (while they build them a new theater). I had all 6 Studio Spots in use and used the TS's to grab them for selection as groups. I was not going to keep typing "Channel, 3,0,1, thru, 3, 0, 6, Enter". It's right there on the screen as "All Fix". I had the L screen with Focus/Beam and Color and could readily press (in Group) "Fix All", then Color Palette button "R60" as a 2 button push. That is much faster and accurate then using a keypad to type "Channel, 3, 0, 1, thru 3, 0, 6, Enter, Color, 5, /, 60, Enter".
There is a reason ETC went the Touch Screen route folks, it's just going to take time to experiment and re-learn how we use the features they've given us.
shiben
Well-Known Member
Exactly my point here. I run an Ion, and most of my design work ends up having all conventional lights. I dont busk on one tho, so in that regard Touch Screens are very probably faster. I just have never had an occasion to use them for that as pretty much all of my design work ends up being for theater nowdays. The only reason I chimed in at all was to say that if you are doing theater, having 3 2x20 wings and dual touchscreens is a waste of your money, as you can be doing other things that your theater production will use more with that money. If your busking, its probably a different story and thats a whole different cost analysis. Sounds like the OP wants a busking console and thus TS devices are definitely going to be more of a use for him there. There is no one console and configuration that easily satisfies all 3 major sectors of our rather diverse industry, and each one works a bit differently, and even within them it gets diversified based on what your doing. It seems silly to me to say a Hog 3 or GMA is going to be your "best" console for any application ever. Its just not the case.
And you totally can upgrade an ETC Console. Saying otherwise, Thats just silly talk.
meatpopsicle
Active Member
I didn't say ETC console, I said Element, specifically. My information is that software and features are not being upgraded in the Element. This from a major rental house here in NY that wont stock it because of that.
Your points about a straight theatre show are well put.
EDIT: Going to ETC's site shows that Element's software has followed EOS, ION ect and is currently at 1.9. Perhaps my guy was only talking of features. Anyway my point seems more tenuous the longer I look at it.
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soundlight
Well-Known Member
I did for a year in college and I still use one occasionally. At my college we had two touchscreens and let me tell you, they were very, very, very useful for moving lights stuff. Heck, even for not moving lights stuff. They're just really super useful and that's why I recommended two from the start in this thread.
I can see where Shiben is coming from though, when you're doing channel notes for a one cuestack theatre show, it's much easier just to type on the keypad for some things. Anyone who has been programming for a while on the console can have the keystrokes for groups complete in the time it takes someone to reach up, hit those group buttons, and return to the console to hit their intensity level during notes. The keypad, for some people, is quicker.
But we're talking about busking here, including with moving lights, so touch screens would be very, very useful.
Busking, yes, however the second you start flashing and trashing any of these bands tour managers are going to be up your rear. This is not typical rock or stoner rock. In fact, many of these bands have in their riders they don't even want to see moving lights.
To the OP, in this economy get what you can. If an element fits the budget, then go with it. If an Ion fits, go with that. No point in spending money you don't have in order to get more features you won't really use. Anymore, any purchase decisions we make around here comes with a grain of salt. If I think that saving a grand here or there is going to help keep the doors open a bit longer, thats what I go with. Something to consider at least. I would suggest you get an onsite demo of both. I bet one of the shops will ship you a loaner to run a show off of before you commit.
meatpopsicle
Active Member
to that end you can go on etc's site and find the introduction to the Element that Sara Clausen does here:
Lighting solutions for Theatre, Film & Television Studios and Architectural spaces : ETC
After watching this I would think an Ion an even better choice for someone who A: owns some movers and B: will have acts bringing more in. With the touchscreens. While using movers on an Element will be tons better than on Express/ion, it just can't compare to having your pallettes available on touchscreens. And the lack of encoders seals the deal for me.
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First, what we do in the smaller room is not what we do in the larger room. In the larger room flash and trash happens regularly and road LDs are common.
IF we were to upgrade it would not be to Ion or anything ETC related. The only way we need a new console is if we get a moving light package. In order to get a package that is worthwhile that could actually fill riders, it would be at least 15-20 units. We would either go GrandMA or Chamsys. We see mostly GrandMAs coming through with the occasional spattering of Avo and HogIII. IF the upgrade ever happens, it would be to bring the lighting system up to the same level as our PA which is as rider friendly as it gets. Because our program is quickly moving to a straight music presentation venue, we would lean towards the needs of an R&R show and away from theatre and dance.
Now.... the odds of this happening are slim to none in the coming years. It will be at least a 3 million if not 5 million dollar project. Unless its a "green" projector or done with stimulus money, it is not happening anytime soon.
Would you invest to that level of in-house, knowing you'd have to settle on a fixture choice ?. You can't afford or have 16 VL3500's as well as 16 MAC 2k Perfomance, not to mention countless LED choices as well and the ***** is trying to 2nd guess what the clients wants. The console is almost easy IF most of the acts are R&R, then you do a GrandMA2.
OR, you don't do any, or few ML's and LED's, just enough to make life a little easier, as well as a very good and modern ETC conventional rig, with maybe the ML's being VL1000's as well as a LED cyc set, or something to make the rep plot more flexible. Then an Ion or Eos to make the events with the in-house LD happy and their life easier (and more efficient). My current problem is I now have a dozen ML's, all flash and trash MAC700's and Studio Spots and almost no events to use them on since the GM cracked down on us using them for rentals. We are puzzled as to why he does not simply up the rental fee by $300 or so to cover the maintenance (the fixtures were all grant funded). So think long and hard as to how to best incorporate all the new stuff that nobody wants to pay for.
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