Console selection

[BillConnerFASTC]

I know that this issue is discussed in many threads but I hope that the perspective here is different enough that you will indulge me. As some or most of you know I'm a consultant but I do believe that the building Owner and their users know what is really right for them so do a lot of leg work and research and education to reach design choices. Not surprisingly, we often are specifying "equals" and lighting gear - especially consoles - often comes down to ETC or Strand. So, on just such a project and one unique enough that the vendor will provide either a ETC or Strand console and control accessories, and keeping in mind the system is a distributed one with just power and data and no fixed dimmers (well a 6 pack for some misc architectural loads), and currently no movers, presented the options and the owner responded with this from a "friend" of the school:

"If it was between the two, I'd vote ETC. They make good consoles, have great support, and as someone mentioned previously, students that are interested in performing arts will run into them in the future. Strand is a good company as well, but I'm just not as familiar with their console line.
However, I think that BOTH of these consoles and they way they operate are "dated" (even though they are current). They are typical theatrical lighting desks that do the same thing, the same way it's been done for years…just modern versions with updated software.
I feel that the consoles geared towards the entertainment / touring world are far better, and easier to understand for students. They do everything the ETC & Strand boards do, far more efficiently, PLUS have a ton of easy to use features… and make programming moving lights, LEDs, etc. mindless. They operate like computer programs that your students are already familiar with, rather than old school theatre mentality. (well, they are computer programs basically with touch screens) AND, many of them are the same price point, if not cheaper, and have far more features for the $$$.
Martin M1/M2 series, High End Systems Road Hogs, MA Lite/Ultra Lite are all great. These are all entry-level for their series, and come with at least 4 universes of DMX, Artnet, RDM technology AND have iPad/iPhone remote features built in.
The desk I always bring in is the Martin M1. The MA series is more common, but pricier. However, most theater installation reps / designers frown on these desks and I've never understood why. No one has ever been able to give me a reason why an ETC is better for an educational environment.
All of my formal training was on Strand and ETC consoles. And, for the past 13 years of professional experience, I have NEVER used a Strand or ETC desk unless it's been installed in an educational environment. That's their place. There are much better, modern, and easier for today's students to understand and comprehend boards for same/less.
Probably not what you wanted to hear from me "

Comments?

 

[Footer]

There are some actual legit points being made there. We just had the first Ion come through our space this last weekend since I have been there (4 years)... and it was for a dance company. There are really valid points that much of the real world uses programmer based consoles such as the GrandMA and Hog stuff. To a lesser degree Avo, Martin, and Chamsys. I have heard phrase that "only people with MFA's buy theatre boards" thrown around before. You do see a lot of the theatre consoles in regional theatre... but that is usually tied to some type of academia. Of my freinds who are touring with broadway shows at the moment, all are on GrandMA.

If you look through the archives here and on lightnetwork you will regularly see people popping up who learned to program on a GrandMA and can not figure out how to get an express to work. You do get yourself wired differently coming from those consoles. The idea that you will never see the programmer based consoles in the real world is long gone... and academia does need to catch up to this. When I taught I made students work on Hog2, Chamsys, and ETC. I was amazed how quickly students who had never programmed anything picked up chamsys and hog. I was also amazed how frustrated they got on the expression after coming off of the Chamsys.

This kind of goes back to the big selling point of the express 72/144 and 48/96. It was a standard console that also had the capability of running 2 scene preset. It was sold to academia to "bridge the gap". In reality I know of no one who ever used it in two-scene mode for an actual show. We are in the same situation now. People are clinging to the old models because it is what they know. Kids today are growing up in a touch world. The idea of a command line console is pretty much over in that kind of world.

Your client's friend does have some good points. However, we still live in a world were both need to be taught. The problem comes in that most places can not afford both consoles. Personally, in a high school environment I would still go with a theatre console. It is what the people with the BFAs and MFAs that come in and teach will know. If you are working in a road house then you should probably think differently.

 

[StNic54]

That is tricky and can definitely lead anyone to feeling undercut when reading a letter like that from an outside source. I believe that the realities of every house and environment will be different, and several questions should be asked in response to this "friend" and their points / assumptions. Will this new installation have the ability to purchase moving lights in the future? If not, there shouldn't be a need for a Cadillac where a tried and true sedan will do the job. If the group has aspirations (and cash) to buy movers down the road, then they would need more than a standard theatrical console to save money in the future. Also, how easy is it to train on this board? In high schools and small churches, it may be difficult/impossible to have to regularly train new faculty/volunteers on a moving light console, whereas a standard theatrical board has fewer layers to take in and are somewhat universal in nature. Also, is this installation meant to train people for the future, or simply satisfy a requirement? As far as coming down to ETC or Strand, I believe any console you spec should be reliable and somewhat road-worthy (even if it doesn't move) and ETC and Strand are very reliable, hands down. Also, any console should be up-to-date enough to allow for some form of networked remote control, not just an RFU with an umbilical anymore. That part of the discussion is quite valid - any of the technology needs to be current, whether the approach is dated or not, the technology needs to be capable. I would agree with the part about multiple worlds of DMX, too. We're only looking at DMX-hogs as equipment continues to progress (like the VLX Wash Mode 2 taking 72 channels).

I go back to an example with a school drama teacher who's installation was overspec'd for her new facility, and she showed me four Etc Revolution fixtures in a locked closet collecting dust because they were too expensive to let the students handle, and no one knew what to do with them. The ends didn't justify the means, and it was a bust in terms of money usage - and the rep should have known better. It's a tricky business with many variables to be considered.

 

[techieman33]

This kind of goes back to the big selling point of the express 72/144 and 48/96. It was a standard console that also had the capability of running 2 scene preset. It was sold to academia to "bridge the gap". In reality I know of no one who ever used it in two-scene mode for an actual show. We are in the same situation now. People are clinging to the old models because it is what they know. Kids today are growing up in a touch world. The idea of a command line console is pretty much over in that kind of world.

I did unfortunately. We got a 48/96 my junior year of high school and our teacher made us run it as a 2 scene board. His reasoning was that recording cues, or even submasters was "unreliable." He was afraid the board would crash and we would lose the whole show. Not even showing him that we could back the show up on to floppy disc would sway him. He also told us that no professional would ever use cues or submasters for that reason. The only time I got to program cues during high school was during the student run talent shows where had no oversight other than for safety issues.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Should have noted system as designed is network and nodes and the ETC console is an ION, not an Express, 1500 with 2X20 fader wing or Strand Classic Palette II 1500. Dual 21" monitors, RFUs, and access points for apps. No movers in initial inventory but I'm sure they will rent as they have in the past and would not surprise me if they purchase some someday. Typical high school with a lot of emphasis on the annual musical and show choir and several dramas each year, and hosting regional show choir festivals.

We're I the resident LD/ME, I'd probably lobby for the highest end Grand MA - and that is without ever having run one - just based on playing with it at shows and demos and a thin grasp of it's capabilities. I struggle with high school students where only rarely does one happen to continue in entertainment technology and the emphasis on hosting festivals and all those folks form other high schools showing up with curs on a memory stick.

Thank you all for your comments.

 

[Footer]

We're I the resident LD/ME, I'd probably lobby for the highest end Grand MA - and that is without ever having run one - just based on playing with it at shows and demos and a thin grasp of it's capabilities. I struggle with high school students where only rarely does one happen to continue in entertainment technology and the emphasis on hosting festivals and all those folks form other high schools showing up with curs on a memory stick.

Thank you all for your comments.

.

Kind of my opinion as well. If the heavens open up and we get the new rig our larger room will go to a GrandMA and our smaller room will go to a Eos or Gio. That will at least give us the ability to take the ETC console upstairs so dance companies can carry in a road show. Having the MA will allow us to run most R&R shows. Now, when we actually get either of these projects funded odds are consoles will plug directly to our brains, but until then...

 

[soundlight]

I think it really comes down to what hard keys are available. Can you do most of what you can do on an ION on the M1? Sure. But it's a lot more touchscreen work and clicking little boxes to do a lot of the timing things that I can do in no time flat with the hard keys available on the ION. I love the M1, it's my weapon of choice for small to medium size events, but it's really not a theatre desk. I find it much faster to program for theatre, even with movers & LEDs, on an ION. I like how ETC has all of the hard keys that you need to program a theatre stack right there, and everything else is very close to the surface. I recently programmed a musical on the M1 because all of our IONs were out and it was a last minute gig. I found myself digging deep in to the cuelist window to do stuff that I know the hardkey keystrokes for perfectly on the ION. The one place where I will give the M1 the edge is discrete timing - the M1 is the king of discrete timing. It's all done at the hardkeys and the thru key is implemented fully, so you can do some really intricate fade & delay timing things for theatrical cues.

As far as popularity in the industry, you won't see many IONs on events, but you will see some - I've had IONs go out to all sorts of different production companies, and come back with all sorts of show files on them - from theater to dance to corporate shows. On the other hand, I don't think our rentals manager has ever gotten a call for a Strand desk - he usually lets me know about the odd requests he gets for desks & fixtures. The ION is the one theatre-style console that's made its mark on the event production industry. As far as applications for schools, I think that if you set up the new Magic Sheet view right, it can be the absolute easiest console for a high school student to walk up to and start using as far as cuelist-based consoles are concerned (of course a 2-scene preset is going to be easier, but that's not what we're talking about here).

If the money is there, I'd definitely go with a GIO. We've installed some at schools recently and they are very nice consoles. The dual built in touchscreens really make all the difference, and the whole console just feels like one of the most solid consoles hardware-wise that I've ever used.

 

[derekleffew]

Recent conundrum: "Moving light console" from High End/MA/Martin vs. "Theatre console" from ETC/Strand. Then there's Jands Vista, which novices love but anyone who's ever used any other lighting console abhor. Just buy everyone a V676.

...The original [Strand Century] Light Palette was a huge breakthrough in control using text. The desk was controlled the way designers think. Our modern conventional consoles still use essentially the same approach. Note the EOS looks quite a bit like the original light palette. ...

What's the difference between GrandMA, EOS and Strand Light Palette today?
Palette is a Prius with cool tech inside but it looks like crap and no one really likes to drive it.
The Grandma looks like a high performance race car but you have to be a professional driver. If you make the slightest mistake you crash and burn. EOS is a practical car that your parents buy. It doesn't look amazing but it gets the job done. ...

Many theatre designers, since 1979, have become accustomed to saying things like "Group 7 except channel 43 and 44 at 50%. Record cue 51. Go back to cue 50. Channels 46 thru 52 all down a point from where they are. Re-record. Put Fixture 7 at 70%, DSR focus, color L117, alpha rays gobo, now rotate a little clockwise. Sharpen, no too much, a little softer. There. Record cue 53, q-only." The board operator executes what the designer tells him, as fast as the designer can speak.

In other genres, the lighting designer is much less specific, rarely calls exact keystrokes, providing much more vague instructions. In theatre, it's almost unheard of (and frequently forbidden by uniuon rules) for a designer to operate the console.

Different strokes for different folks. There's MA2 on Broadway, but I don't think an EOS on a touring rock show. Light Palette and Kliegl Performer did use to tour with MOR music acts and even ran early moving lights, pre-Vari*Lite. FWIW.

 

[Judge]

ETC have done a tremendous job with their new consoles. The Gio and EOS are excellent desks. I really disliked their earlier ones, like Congo and Obsession. Now they have nailed it and have become the standard for theatre desks. And this is the position that Strand used to be in. Strand totally lost the plot and did not keep up with the times. Realising that ETC had snuck in and taken all their customers away they tried to gain back lost ground by reinventing the awful ugly and cumbersome Palette series.
Sorry Strand, too little, too late. Anyone that specifies Strand these days has not considered the implications at best, and is deluded and living in the past at worst.
The phrase "on a hiding to nothing" springs to mind. There was a time when students had to learn Strand programming if in a theatre and Avo if doing music and live events. Now students need to know ETC.
It is interesting to note that Avolites made the same mistake and they were king of the rock n roll market. Then along came Hog, ChamSys and eventually MA to take all their market share away. Luckily for them they continued developing their new Titan OS and built new hardware for it and now I believe their kit is innovative and useful again.
However, once you have lost users to GrandMA I don't think they are ever going to come back, unless budget is an issue.

Martin are an interesting case and there is a lot of love for their new range of consoles, and the M6 in particular looks very nice. Its market position is unclear and I do not think many theaters will buy one but it looks to be a useful multimedia control surface.
As for Jands Vista, well it was summed up neatly above. If you have never done lights but are comfortable with computers, then its the go-to choice, but I really don't like them. There is a new kid on the block though and I hope it finds a place for itself in USA and Europe - this is the LSC Clarity LX which takes some of the useful features of Vista - and there are many - and puts them in a better console. I would be keen to play with one, but they are really an Australian only thing at the mo.

MA has cleaned up really. It is a superbly efficient and smart console and does just everything. And does it well. Intimidating to use at first for sure but I do not see anyone coming along to unseat King MA2 any time soon. It is however very much a programmers, rather than an LDs desk, but on the kind of scale show that it operates on, most will have separate desiger, programmer and operator anyway.

 

[derekleffew]

gMA2 full-size also retails at US $80,000. The MSRP of two EOS Ti s.

Of course no one pays retail, and renters pay $750-1000 a week, about the cost of 3 VL3XXX s.
.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

No comments on the dynamics of training and an ever changing student operator group and probably not infrequently changing faculty and staff? Plus I try to design so faculty and staff have as much time as possible to teach, and not have to spend time operating gear and doing donkey work. It's a real pitfall of many educational institutions. I can call in a favor and get an ETC person to stop at a client and do board op training session for a group of students. No confidence I could fine someone from other manufacturers - Strand being an exception - as easily or expeditiously. But I like and very much appreciate the comments and thoughts.

When I asked one professional theatre company why they were wedded to the top end ETC console and not even looking at MAs or anything in that class, it was simple - they couldn't keep a good MA board op - too much demand. That's almost in the same vein as lets limit the size of the loading doors so we can limit the amount and size of scenery we have to have.

 

[TheaterEd]

No comments on the dynamics of training and an ever changing student operator group and probably not infrequently changing faculty and staff?

I have a couple. The last PAC I opened came equipped with the ION you have spec'd, and the current school I am at has the Element (I don't know why(actually I do, it's because they don't hire the manager until after it's built)). I have never used any of the high end boards, however I can speak to the ease of use of the ETC boards. In the high school educational environment you never know who may show up to be your board op, and the fact that I can have someone trained on the basics and by themselves in the booth on a headset in under 15 minutes is key for me. As much as I would love to be able to be the board op for all of the shows, it just isn't possible.

With basic use of a rep plot and sub-masters, I am able to train a talent show's board op within minutes. The fact that I can talk a brand new board op through a show via a headset is key for me. When the middle school came in to do a show, I sat with a 7th grader and showed him how I programmed the show for less than ten minutes. I showed him the GO button and how to read the cues I'd written in the script, and then I was able to go back to building the set while he stepped through the show. In my job I often have to be everywhere at the same time, so when I am able to hand off a task to someone at a moments notice, it is a show-saver. I once had my light and sound board ops out sick at the same time. I took the sound board and move our follow spot operator to the board. When he got sick during intermission I handed the RFU to my stage manager and the show was able to go on with the audience none-the-wiser. The only reason the director noticed something was wrong was when we missed the one follow spot cue, and he just figured the kid wasn't paying attention.

Just my $0.02

 

[SteveB]

In other genres, the lighting designer is much less specific, rarely calls exact keystrokes, providing much more vague instructions. In theatre, it's almost unheard of (and frequently forbidden by uniuon rules) for a designer to operate the console.

I think this is the heart of the issue. Standard "theatrical" desks are seemingly designed around the assumption that there's an LD calling levels and requirements, with a separate operator executing. The "R&R" desks have the programmer as either the LD or pretty much an associate LD, or are designed for that scenario an make that operating method easier.

This is certainly the case with Kyle's wish, which will have the house LD as designer running some flavor of MA, OR playing button pusher on some form of Eos for those dance folks that have an LD, or whomever rolls in with a cue file on a USB drive and then needs someone to push the GO button. That is of course a simplistic example and you get variations of both, if my experience is any example where I, as house LD amd busking an Ion all the time, making it try to function like a Hog.

Which do you teach for ?. Hard to answer.

In my mind, it's marginally easier to teach the basics of cuing, even using ML's and LED's, on a theatrical desk, then on a R&R desk. And you need to teach the basics before you want them getting into the advanced. The theatrical desks seem to assume that more time is available to build up a complicated set of looks and/or effects and then have less need for an intricate level of control over some of those aspects of the "looks", such as timing, positioning, color while it's running. The R&R desks always assume you are busking and give you that better control, but require that your initial level of program understanding be greater to accomplish what on on theatrical desk is on the surface and maybe more obvious (Ch 1 Full, Record Q 1).

For those students that do end up going into theater and find themselves in the lighting end of the business, I would state that they will be running into a lot more theatrical desks - Ion in particular, early in their career. They "might" gravitate towards the live event/corporate end of the business and then find themselves at the next level and be programming on MA's and Hogs. So maybe train for the basics and theatrical.

As note: I thought this comment to be out of touch with the current state of the operating systems, especially the use of touch screens and magic sheets on the Eos series:

"However, I think that BOTH of these consoles and they way they operate are "dated" (even though they are current). They are typical theatrical lighting desks that do the same thing, the same way it's been done for years…just modern versions with updated software."

I can only assume the author is thinking that having to call "channel, 1, at, 75" etc.... to be the heart of the "dated" comment, and is thinking that manipulating touch screens for direct control of devices and attributes, as found on "event" desks to be the future. He/she has yet to spend time controlling ML's and LED's (as well as being able to use "Ch, 1 at 50), using touch screens and magic sheets in the latest Eos series desks.

 

[Esoteric]

Interesting. When I was in school in the late 90's and early 2000's we had an Express, Insight, Expression, Obsession, Whole Hog, Hog 500, and a very strange HES moving light console that I can't remember the name of.

Mike

 

[Judge]

Aah, that would probably be the Status Cue (eh? see what they did there?)
Designed to control Cyberlights and their ilk, it was actually quite a smart device back then considering the competition was, well, really just an Artisan Mk1 if my timeline is correct, and you couldn't buy them anyway. It never caught on though.

 

[Esoteric]

Aah, that would probably be the Status Cue (eh? see what they did there?)
Designed to control Cyberlights and their ilk, it was actually quite a smart device back then considering the competition was, well, really just an Artisan Mk1 if my timeline is correct, and you couldn't buy them anyway. It never caught on though.

Bingo! We did all our moving light shows to CD's so everything was pretimed. Those were fun times. Cybers, Technos, Studio Color (magnetic ballast), Stuio Spot 250 and 575CMYs, Track Spots, and Emulators. My moving light professor loved that console.

 

[Sayen]

I teach high school and, through some creative budgets, we have both an ION and a GrandMA. My experience is that 90% of my students will run only the ION. The training curve coupled with everything else in the tech curriculum means the average user barely grasps the ION before they graduate. A complete novice can sit down and busk a concert using labeled faders. From a practicality standpoint, it's perfect. While the EOS line might not be in every theater, the concept of programming a theatrical style board is similar across brands, so there's some good foundational work there for learners.

The occasional advanced student (and some tours) will run the GrandMA, but it's rare. The consoles are great, but the learning curve is steep for new learners and I just don't have time to focus on only lighting training. I like having the second console for students serious about the industry who want to be ready for the rock industry, but the GrandMA is actually a bit of an impediment for most of our in house productions. The ION is just a stronger choice for our inventory of fixtures, which includes both movers and conventionals.

I would also encourage purchasers to think about customer service. I wish you the best of luck with Strand. I like the Strand consoles, and that's where I started years ago, but from an industry standpoint they've fallen behind the curve, and customer service is almost non-existant. ETC, on the other hand, once answered a post here on a national holiday, and within an hour of me asking CB for help their tech had sent me a custom patch file. The small handful of times I've needed to call ETC they are always knowledgeable and quick. Strand makes quality gear, but their customer service is hit or miss.

 

[soundman]

I teach high school and, through some creative budgets, we have both an ION and a GrandMA. My experience is that 90% of my students will run only the ION. The training curve coupled with everything else in the tech curriculum means the average user barely grasps the ION before they graduate.

Agreed. Spending that extra chunk of change on a desk that only 10% of the students might use could be wasteful. Unless the money tree is in full bloom it might be better to purchase some staples before a desk with more horsepower than necessary.

I graduated college a little over four years ago. Day one I told the lighting professors I wanted to be a moving light programmer. They reminded me that the university only owned two movers and an expression 3. Every time the department rented a desk I was the goto programmer for it, and I learned a little bit. My last semester they were able to purchase a road hog full boar. I spent every free moment infront of the desk creating a blank show show file with all my views just so and all my groups and colors laid out just so. I wanted to be ready to get the call to go work for some big shot LD. After I graduated I am not sure the desk got turned on for almost a year. The facility was way more comfortable with the Expression and there wasn't a student as interested as I was. The 14K spent on the desk that benefited me could have bought a lot of source fours, cable and scrollers that would have been more helpful.

While I am on a tangent it is time to separate learning from specific console syntax. Students need to learn theory and concepts before building muscle memory on a particular desk. In my experience by the time I had the connections to get real programming gigs I was out of the game so long that show disk I worked so hard on was useless. Hogs were dead Grand MAs won and I was starting over. Who know what the next 5 years will bring? When you're starting out better to be a sold programmer on a few desks because you understand the theory than the best on one console.

 

[Sayen]

I want to add that I also have a 2 scene Leprecon, and students are tested on both it and the ION. The GMA is just gravy and was purchased through a bit of luck and chance, not necessity..

Those of us with board experience - you might have been starting over when you left a Hog, but you still understood the basic principles of lighting and programming, and I'll be it was easier for you than someone entirely green to the field. Syntax and terminology changes, but the classes of consoles are pretty similar.

Unless it's a Smartfade. Then you're just out of luck.

 

[techieman33]

I would much rather have an Ion with lots of cool dmx widgets than a MA with a few or no widgets. I could see complaining about an Element, but there is enough of the EOS line out there to be worth learning. Even if it is on the baby of the family most of what is learned will carry over.