any recommendations?

[NHStech]

My church sits about 300. We have a Behringer mixing console. Super cheap, and very limited. I am looking for something with a minimum of 24 inputs.
The boards that have piqued my interest are as follows:
Yamaha 01V96VCM Digital Mixer
Presonus StudioLive 24.4.2 Digital Mixer
Yamaha MG3214FX 14 Bus Mixer

Can anyone give my info on these? The Presonus is the high end of what could be spent. The Yamaha analog mixer is the cheapest. I am a bit confused , though, about the Yamaha digital. The info says it handles up to 40 inputs, but I see only 16 faders and only 12 xlr inputs. I know nothing about digital mixers. Could anyone please help me on this?

 

[themuzicman]

The reason the digital console only has 12 XLR inputs is because there are digital ADAT inputs. You can switch between fader level to have full access to all of your inputs.

I'd say, knowing only your basic needs, that you should invest in the MG32 and spend the extra money on EQ's and Comps to get a good sound from your system.

 

[cprted]

I have no idea what the price point on the Presonus is but have you looked at the Allen & Heath GL2400?

 

[avkid]

With the 01V96VCM you would need external preamps and be dealing with layers.
Unless you have experienced digital operators this is going to lead to a great deal of frustration.

If you want an analog console don't waste your time with the MG series.
Crest Audio HP 832 channel mixer -Brand New in Box - eBay (item 360086388318 end time Nov-25-10 08:07:41 PST)

 

[ssss2art]

The o1v96 has 40 inputs

• 12 analog xlr inputs
• 4 channels via 1/4 balanced inputs(line level),
• 8 inputs via adat lightpipe
• 16 more inputs that are available via an expansion card.

So the stock 01v96 has 16 analog inputs available
If you need more inputs you can buy an 8 channel adat mic preamps(ad/da) module and plug it in to add another 8 input channels. The mic pre's start around $200 for a behringer ada8000 (8 in/ 8 out) unit on the low end and sky's the limit for boutique preamps. most of the units also have 8 additional outputs on them so you get the added bonus of more xlr or 1/4in outputs to use on your mixer for things like monitor mixes.

In order to max out at to the 40 possible channels you need to purchase an expansion card which plugs in the back of the unit. There are many to choose from including the my16-at( 16in/out adat expansion card) which has been very popular. To use the my16-at you also need to purchase 2 additional ad/da units.

There are other cards like the Audinate Dante my-16aud card that make it easy to send and recieve upto 16 channels(in each direction) over ethernet. This is great for recording to a computer with only the ethernet cable as a connection. There are a number of "dante" enabled devices including amplifiers, signal processors and stageboxes that can be connected to/from the mixer.

There are a cards for AVIOM, ethersound, and cobranet also available.
You can also purchase cards that expand the amount and types of effects that are available.

I have read that the presonus mixer mutes all outputs momentarily when you change scenes. could be a problem if you want to use scenes to walk through a show.(i have not ever used this mixer). the presonus also does not have flying faders.

You can buy the 01v96 for less than $1900 add another $200 for a behringer ada8000 and you have a 24 input 16 output mixer with compressors gates, 4 band eq on each input and output + built in effects.

On the down side the o1v96 is not the easiest mixer to use. hope this helps

stewart

 

[museav]

What are your goals and criteria? Do you need to have or want (the difference between need and want can be critical) the ability to save and recall presets or scenes? Do you need/want onboard processing such as limiters, compressors, delays and so on? Do you have any specific needs as far as a certain quantity of groups or aux sends, LCR panning, mute groups, etc.? Do you need to support inputs or outputs other than analog mic and line signals? Is there any physical size constraints? Do you record either two track or multitrack? Do you want/need the ability to grow or expand the inputs and/or outputs? What is the experience and skills of the operators? You may not have answers to all of these but they are the type of issues that can make the difference in whether any particular mixer is a good fit or not.

Digital consoles can be a bit difficult to grasp as it is a different concept. Perhaps the most significant aspect is when you realize that unlike an analog console, all the faders, knobs, etc. do not actually directly alter the signal, they are simply telling the console how the digital signal should be manipulated. So all the faders, knobs etc. are control signals rather than actually being in the audio signal path. That means one can assign a control, say a fader, to one audio channel, use it to control that channel and remember that control setting for that channel, then assign that same control to another channel, recall where it was last set for that channel and then control that new channel.

This allows a digital console to not need to have a direct control to audio path relationship. You could have 32 physical inputs and 32 controllers for them. Or you could have the same 32 physical inputs but 16, 8, 4 or even just 1 controller that you then assign to the audio signals that you want to control.

The other aspect that may affect the numbers you noted is that many digital consoles have not just traditional mic and line inputs and outputs but also various digital inputs and/or outputs such as ADAT, SPDIF, AES, Cobranet, Dante, EtherSound, MADI and so on. Some mixers also provide the ability to expand the number of physical inputs and outputs via optional cards or modules. So it would not be that unusual for a digital console to have the ability to handle a larger number of physical inputs that are on it without any options installed.

 

[museav]

I have read that the presonus mixer mutes all outputs momentarily when you change scenes. could be a problem if you want to use scenes to walk through a show.(i have not ever used this mixer). the presonus also does not have flying faders.

This can be a major issue in many theatrical applications, but may or may not be a problem in worship applications. If you plan to use scenes during a single service, say a praise band scene, a sermon scene and a choir scene, then you may need to recall those quickly and seamlessly, so the PreSonus with the muting and 'semi-manual' fader recall may not work well. But if any use of scenes would be mostly for presetting a service, say to select whether that service is a typical service or an Easter service or if it is a service with Praise Band A versus Praise band B, then that can be done in advance and might be just fine.

 

[avkid]

Wait, it still mutes when changing scenes?
I thought they were going to fix that with firmware updates..

 

[museav]

They were apparently considering it but my understanding that it was more a change than a fix as it was intentional. Apparently, for a number of reasons the recall process first returned all settings to a nominal default status and then applied the new parameters, so everything was muted while that process occurred. Thus eliminating the muting would require modifying the recall process and increase the processing potentially required.

Just to clarify the fader issue with scenes on the StudioLive, if you store fader levels as part of a scene then when you recall that scene the fader levels are set to the levels stored, however because the faders are not motorized they do not physically move to the stored level. This creates a dilemma that if the faders are active then the levels would immediately change from the levels recalled to the physical setting of the faders, which may be quite different. The method chosen to address this is that when you recall a scene that includes fader levels the faders themselves are made inactive. You then manually move the faders to the positions the board indicates, which represent the stored levels. When that is done you reactivate the faders and now you're running normally. However, during the time between the scene being recalled and the faders being reactivated the physical faders themselves are not controlling anything. That is usually not a problem is you have time between when you need to recall a scene and when you actually need to make any fader changes. However, it can be a major consideration if you are mixing live and can't afford to have the faders inactive for the time it takes you to get them set to the physical positions that were part of the recalled scene and reactivate them.

NHStech, that is why I am curious about your three options. One is a more traditional analog mixer with some internal effects processing. One is a compact digital console that because of its original design intent has limited standard analog I/O but that also because of the original design intent has motorized faders and some I/O expansion capability. And one is a digital console with mostly analog I/O and no motorized faders. Overall, three fairly differing options. Which one might be best for you is likely highly dependent upon how you envision using it.

 

[FMEng]

For me, whether I would go digital or analog console would depend a lot on who you expect to have operating it. If people using it are all fairly technical and are limited in number so they will get hands on time fairly often, then digital might be OK.

But, in many churches the sound volunteers and church staff are a fairly diverse group that would find digital difficult to learn and intimidating. With analog, its is one function to one control knob and it is much easier to understand and use proficiently. Few churches need the horsepower of digital.

I would cast the net for analog wider than just Yamaha. Look at Soundcraft, Allen & Heath, and Mackie.

 

[mstaylor]

For me, whether I would go digital or analog console would depend a lot on who you expect to have operating it. If people using it are all fairly technical and are limited in number so they will get hands on time fairly often, then digital might be OK.

But, in many churches the sound volunteers and church staff are a fairly diverse group that would find digital difficult to learn and intimidating. With analog, its is one function to one control knob and it is much easier to understand and use proficiently. Few churches need the horsepower of digital.

I would cast the net for analog wider than just Yamaha. Look at Soundcraft, Allen & Heath, and Mackie.

Agreed, I just changed my Mackie out for an A&H.

 

[NHStech]

Thanks for all the input. As much as I would like to learn digital mixers, it sounds as if they represent a sea-change in mixing. Therefore, probably better to go analog, even though I would like the presets.
So, any recommendations on a 32-channel analog mixer? I am looking - at the behest of some here - at an Aleen and Heath GL2400, and the Peavey Sanctuary series S-32, as it seems to "assist" some of the less knowledgeable volunteers (and we have a few).
Has anyone used the Peavey, and what do you think about the AH? Any other suggestions of a 32-channel mixer that won't break the bank (under 4k)?

 

[avkid]

As I suggested above, if used is an option consider a Crest HP8.

 

[bishopthomas]

The GL2400 is a good utility mixer. If it does what you want it to and is the right price you will certainly be happy with it. Just be sure you can live with the limited aux sends.

 

[TimmyP1955]

Forget the Yamaha analog consoles. I just don't like 'em. The Allen & Heath consoles are my favorite affordable analogs (GL or MW) . The Mackie Onyx is OK.

However for theater, our lives became much easier when we went digital (LS9).


The Rolands seem to be well liked, but the digital snake adds a lot of cost to the system.

There's a new Soundcraft coming out that looks good.


The Presonus is a nice board, but is not well suited for theater.

1) Scence changes have a mute in between.

2) If your changes involve fader changes (as opposed to channel mutes), in order to tweak a level during that scene you have to line the fader up before it becomes active.


If an LS9 is not within the budget, I'd look into an O1V96. However, I've not confirmed that the scene changes are "clean". Also, you are limited to 99 scenes, which we've exceeded on every show with our LS9.

 

[Chris15]

I'd look into an O1V96. However, I've not confirmed that the scene changes are "clean". Also, you are limited to 99 scenes, which we've exceeded on every show with our LS9.

Remember that the 01V was originally designed (like the DM series and the rest of the 0x series) for broadcast and recording usages, not as live consoles. But because they are essentially broadcast consoles, any scene change muting etc. would be unacceptable. I have seen 01Vs used in broadcast and given who was using them, I know that if there was any issue, the console would have been out of the truck so fast...

 

[jowens]

+1 for the A/H GL2400!

 

[mstaylor]

+1 to the A&H.

 

[museav]

Thanks for all the input. As much as I would like to learn digital mixers, it sounds as if they represent a sea-change in mixing. Therefore, probably better to go analog, even though I would like the presets.
So, any recommendations on a 32-channel analog mixer? I am looking - at the behest of some here - at an Aleen and Heath GL2400, and the Peavey Sanctuary series S-32, as it seems to "assist" some of the less knowledgeable volunteers (and we have a few).

Just wanted to point out that with both these mixing consoles you do not get any of the internal dynamics or effects processing that were provided in all of the models initially noted. I don't know if this is a factor for you or not, but just wanted to be sure you were aware of it.

This is a pretty good example of the kinds of tradeoffs and decisions that must often be made. For some people having internal processing may be a major factor, for others it might be no factor at all. The same for scene save and recall. Some people may find certain EQ capabilities critical while others don't. Some may require certain quantities of pre and/or post fade aux sends, for others that is not an issue. Some people prefer having a large number of Groups when mixing, others may never use Groups. Some people may really like the ability to connect direct to a computer via USB or FireWire, others may not use this or have other methods already in place. It's all about defining what is and is not important to you and making sure the equipment fits your goals.

 

[DiscoBoxer]

+1 for Allen and Heath GL series. IMHO, the signal to noise ratio alone sets it as one of the best options for a featured "budget-friendly" console. In an environment where simplicity can make or break your volunteers, they are great. I personally would not encourage a Peavy, but I am biased since I have had poor luck with them. I also am not a Mackie fan but have heard that the Onyx line is pretty decent. Take a look at Soundcraft as well.

Your application is key with what you are doing now, need to do now, and want to grow into the future. If your church does dramas\theater, than I would suggest that you reconsider the digital option. You will have issues with some volunteers grasping it but there are some very user friendly options out there like the Yamaha LS9 or the Roland. If you do go Roland, get the newer black version. The standard silver-beige version has a reflective surface that makes it difficult to work with when you have overhead lighting.

I would also suggest that you hook up with a reutable dealer who can see your venue in person and help you asses your needs. The vendor may also be able to provide you with a demo of various consoles so that you can get a feel for what you are buying. When you spend money on a console, it is nice to know that what you are buying will actually be acceptable and work in your venue. When you are new to digital and decide to go that route, the dealer can help you weed through all the many options that are offered for the console and help you decide on what you actually need.

Good luck!