Best LED for high school down wash

[techieman33]

Other features to consider are strobe and zoom. Vivid R will not do either.

Even if it doesn't have a strobe mode built in to the profile I see no reason why it couldn't strobe if you needed it to. Zoom isn't that important either for a static down wash. It's just one more part of a light that can fail. With all of the lensing options available you would just need to figure out what lens you need for the best coverage and put it in. Zoom is great for specials, and rental stock, but not needed for a downwash that will probably never get moved.

 

[lwinters630]

Why can't you strobe an LED fixture? Any LED fixture?

You can Strobe LED fixtures and it usually works best when it is a built in function.

 

[chausman]

You can Strobe LED fixtures and it usually works best when it is a built in function.

How is a built in function different from a console turning all of the active channels on and off quickly?

 

[techieman33]

How is a built in function different from a console turning all of the active channels on and off quickly?

Speed, it's faster to just tell the fixture to strobe at x rate then the manually program a chase to get the same effect.

 

[lwinters630]

And some consoles can not chase as fast as a strobe function.

 

[Focus]

I think built-in strobe macros are a waste in most situations. Most LEDs I have used allow you to use a basic 3 channel mode(RGB), but if you want to set it to the profile that has a strobe channel, it's often a 10+ channel mode with a bunch of extra "club modes" on the aditional channels. I will take Virtual dimmers and building effects for strobe most days, over wasting a ton of channels.

Scrollers?! Don't wast your time or money. The disadvantages are many, and the cost of LEDs have come down significantly, while scrollers remain the same.

Do you really want to deal with distributed power supplies, 4pin cable and if you are on an old console, manual MIB cues. Or even on a newer cosole with fancy MIB settings, needing to go to black to hide the transition.

 

[Focus]

That said, if I could have just 1 extra cannel per fixture for strobe,after color, I would absolutely do it over using dimming effects, but most just don't have the option.

 

[gafftaper]

I see five solutions:

1) Most accurate LED solution: Seledor you are going to get the best light which can be fine tuned to match your incandescent colors.

2) Most bang for the buck LED: Call your favorite dealer and see what brand of Chinese LED is their house brand. Blizzard has been mentioned above. There are now dozens of high power and decent quality Chinese brands like Blizzard out there. The white is much better than it used to be. The pastels, while definitely inferior to Seledor, are much closer than they used to be. Since the question is about downlight on stage, you probably aren't all that worried about getting really accurate pastels. The danger with these products is what will you do in 5 years when you need repairs. My feeling is buy them from a dealer you have a long standing relationship with and who is going to be the person you turn to for repairs. This dealer will have a vested interest in helping you when that problem arises. Hopefully they will be able to fix them as it was their house brand. If they are still going to want to keep you as a customer and they will do their best to help you. What you don't want to do is go buy the cheapest LED's you can find on Ebay.

3) LED's from Apollo, Elation, Chauvet, Altman, and others major manufacturers: Not as expensive as Seledor but better quality than Chinese house brands. What do you get for your extra couple hundred per fixture? A name standing behind the product. In terms of color accuracy and intensity, they tend to be a little better but not Seledor better. They can be made better, but some of these products come off the same production line as the Chinese knock off brands. So you need to do your research.

4) Scrollers: Not a bad idea. Yeah it's older technology but it works and there's a lot to be said for sticking with something that works. It keeps everything the same just adds more options.

5) Seachangers: Seachangers are awesome and should always be considered in any color changing discussion. Not sure that they are the best solution for your situation, but at least think about them.

Before you do anything, consider your lighting console's capabilities. If it isn't from the recent generation of consoles you may find it's impossible to add all these DMX addresses and you will definitely find it difficult to work with them. Also consider how you are going to get DMX to the fixtures. Does your theater have good DMX distribution? That can get expensive if the answer is no. Heck just DMX cable is crazy expensive.

 

[VCTMike]

Why can't you strobe an LED fixture? Any LED fixture?

I think he means an internal strobe channel.

 

[Focus]

Gafftaper makes some good points, yes you need to consider the cost of DMX cable, In the case of scrollers you need to buy 4-pin for around the same price, and it can only be used for scrollers. At least dmx cable will be useful if/when you expand your inventory and or reconfigure for different applications.

If you can buy used, you may find killer deals on scrollers. If you get scrollers, don't forget NC in you color string.

As for DMX distribution, (you will need DMX in any case.) if you don't have dmx on the stage somewhere, instal grade wire is pretty cheap, there may be someone on IT or maintenance staff that can run a line or two easily. This is also probably the cheapest. Also grab a Swisson opto-splitter.

Is there a dedicated network in the theater? If so, an artnet node isrelatively cheap. Or a simple line of cat5/6 can be pulled from the desk(if it has dmx over ethernet)

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Please don't overlook long term costs entirely. Lamps, labor cost of relamping, gell, electrical energy, cooling load energy. I really do understand the sometimes futility in making that case, but it's a real cost none the less. Retrofits to existing are tough to rationalize on a purely economic basis but we feel we have reached the point where the choice of quartz and central dimming roughly the same as primarily solid state in combination with some quartz with distributed dimming, and long term costs make it even more appealing.

 

[Focus]

Please don't overlook long term costs entirely. Lamps, labor cost of relamping, gell, electrical energy, cooling load energy. I really do understand the sometimes futility in making that case, but it's a real cost none the less. Retrofits to existing are tough to rationalize on a purely economic basis but we feel we have reached the point where the choice of quartz and central dimming roughly the same as primarily solid state in combination with some quartz with distributed dimming, and long term costs make it even more appealing.

Bill, This is an interesting point. I have seen many installs of 90-100% Conventional fixtures with only distributed dimming, and they were terrible. Not enough dimming, very little expansion due to installing minimal power for said distributed dimming, so more dimmers could not be used without the building wire being upgraded, etc. But now with LEDs and other intelligent lighting becoming more prominent, I can see installed central dimming becoming less necessary, and smart data distribution more important.

 

[StradivariusBone]

So rather than start a whole new thread beating the same horse to death I elected to continue this one, since I have the same problem and almost two years later there are new products out there that would merit a polishing of this thread. Sorry if this is necro in advance.

We are looking to add LED downlighting over our stage. We've got a 40' wide proscenium and are about 30' back to the sky drop. Lighting battens are about 20' up.

I have been looking at the Chauvet ColorDash Par-Quad 18 and the Par-Hex 12 as options. The Par-Quad 18 seems to be brighter, but with the tradeoff of having less color options, most notably the absence of a white LED where the 12 has the white (and UV which is not a deal maker/breaker).

Another product I was looking at was the Blizzard Rok Box line, the exa and the 5.

From my math on these (which feel free to correct if wrong) I'm looking at having at least 6 fixtures per batten to get adequate coverage across the stage. I'm also looking to buy in stages so probably 6 lights now and 6 next summer. My biggest fear is what I don't know and that I don't know what I don't know, hence getting insight into this decision.

Beam angles are another point of confusion to some degree as I understand that LED's are not as straightforward as conventionals in this arena. The Par-Quad has optics of 20, but a beam angle of 18 while the Par-Hex has just a beam angle of 20. The Rok Box has 25 degree optics with a 26 degree beam angle. I know I want the "cones" to overlap to give proper coverage, but is there a magic number for how much? At what height should the fields converge?

We are a HS PAC that functions as a mini-roadhouse. Lots of dance recitals, lots of school shows, an annual musical, etc. I'd like something that would spend 90% of its time downlighting, but could also double as a backlight truss for a flash and trash rock concert when called for. Our front wash is 5 wide x 3 zones deep and 575w S4s. Sidelighting at the moment are 6 8" fresnels. One thing I didn't mention earlier is we do have a sizeable apron, about 13' downstage of the plaster line.

To summarize, are these fixtures a good place to start looking? Are there other fixtures that are comparable that I should be aware of? I'm not local to many dealers, so I haven't explored the demo option much yet. Budget at the moment is about $3-4,000 for one batten of downlight.

 

[mikeydoesstuff]

As a wash unit I'm really liking the Martin Rush MH2 - not quite the same deal as pars/par equivalents, but Theyre quick, theyre bright, and they're moving heads to they'd make a really nice flash and trash option.

 

[StradivariusBone]

Those are very cool and would be useful, but are a bit north of my budget. I'm not really looking for moving heads, but more for a static wash that can be reconfigured on occasion/as needed.

 

[soundlight]

I've heard a lot of good stuff about the Blizzard Rokboxes you mentioned - and the HotBoxes as well. I'd suggest the RokBox 5 RGBAW over the EXA, I haven't seen a 6-color LED with a good UV or good lensing system yet. Also, the LEDs for each are 15 watt, so in the RGBAW Hotbox 5 there will be more power per LED color.

I can recommend directly against any of the Chauvet Hex gear or the Elation SixPARs - the lensing is not there yet. You get significant color splotching. Not a huge fan. Yes, I've seen them both in person. Elation said it was a "beta unit" and they were going to "improve the lenses" - they didn't. Saw the production model. Still not a great field. Yeah, for dark flash n trash club backlighting, they'd be fine, but for downlight in a non-haze situation I can't recommend them.

Now as a disclaimer I haven't seen the Blizzard stuff. But I've heard good things.

 

[JChenault]

From my math on these (which feel free to correct if wrong) I'm looking at having at least 6 fixtures per batten to get adequate coverage across the stage. I'm also looking to buy in stages so probably 6 lights now and 6 next summer. My biggest fear is what I don't know and that I don't know what I don't know, hence getting insight into this decision.

Beam angles are another point of confusion to some degree as I understand that LED's are not as straightforward as conventionals in this arena. The Par-Quad has optics of 20, but a beam angle of 18 while the Par-Hex has just a beam angle of 20. The Rok Box has 25 degree optics with a 26 degree beam angle. I know I want the "cones" to overlap to give proper coverage, but is there a magic number for how much? At what height should the fields converge?

I think your math is off. Assuming a batten 20 feet above the deck, and 'normal height actors, you have about 13. Feet of throw from the fixture Ito the top of a 6 foot actors head. A 19 degree angle spreads .31 feet for every foot of throw giving a circle of about 4.5 feet per fixture. For a 40 foot proscenium this means about 9 fixtures. To get the 20 foot depth, you need about 4 to 5 battens.

I would also advise against spreading your purchases out over multiple years. The technology is changing so fast that a year from now there will likely not be an identical fixture available.

 

[StradivariusBone]

I was having trouble visualizing the coverage with actors, but it never occurred to me to simply reduce the distance to the height needed in the beam calculation. That makes a lot of sense.

I guess then my questions go back to getting the best light bang for light buck. The limiting factor with LED's seem to be the lack of flexibility in the beam angle, which I guess I'm just used to our current downlight which are pairs of warm/cool fresnels set to flood. I'm not opposed to raising the trim of our electrics, but realize that the increased distance will equally a proportional decrease in brightness.

I'm also trying to find a way to buy the whole rig within a year's time, I realize that the market surges forward in this area. Is there a better time of year to buy? Do the big brands release fixtures on a predictable schedule (a la Apple) like at certain trade shows?

 

[np18358]

I know you said that you are not looking for moving instruments, but I just wanted to point out that you could get Chauvet Rogue R1 Washes for approx 700 - 800$, and while it is more than the ~500$ price of the other instruments you were looking at, they have a 11°-48° zoom, are quite a bit brighter, and with the combination of the moving head functionality/wider spread you may be able to get less. May not work for you, but certainly not a crazy idea.

 

[StradivariusBone]

That's a good point. With a moving head we'd get a bit more flexibility in lighting the zones, albeit not always 90 degree down, but at least some angle of top-down color wash. The zoom would definitely make for an interesting combo of spot/flood too.