Channel Faders and Submasters

Corbettlight

Active Member
So I've read a lot about people wanting a lot of submasters and channel faders. I recently moved from a two scene preset - on which I constantly used the channel faders, obviously - to an Element; on which I find I never use the channel faders or submasters. So I was wondering: Why would people (who aren't busking concerts, and such), want these seemingly archaic tools on a console?

Thanks!
 
There have been a number of keypad vs fader debates on CB and I think the only real answer is: some people just like faders...:rolleyes:

:)
-Tim
 
Personally, I like submasters because I often have to set up/run basic lighting for special events. Since I'm not the LD, I'm not already familiar with the plot, and hate having to sit there and either try to decipher their purpose shorthand on the LW paperwork (some of our designers are better than others in this respect) or (worse) run through channel numbers to figure out what's what. It's far easier for me to tell the ME or LD to set up a set of basic groups on the submasters at the end of tech, and then when an event comes up I can look at the fader tapes and busk out whatever I need, and maybe record some cues from that if the show is a bit more complex.
 
Personally, I like submasters because I often have to set up/run basic lighting for special events. Since I'm not the LD, I'm not already familiar with the plot, and hate having to sit there and either try to decipher their purpose shorthand on the LW paperwork (some of our designers are better than others in this respect) or (worse) run through channel numbers to figure out what's what. It's far easier for me to tell the ME or LD to set up a set of basic groups on the submasters at the end of tech, and then when an event comes up I can look at the fader tapes and busk out whatever I need, and maybe record some cues from that if the show is a bit more complex.

Quite frankly, thats just letting them get away with poor paperwork practices. I feel like with the advanced labeling options on many consoles, and the extensive fields available to the modern designer on any CADD program, there is no reason to not have a sheet for the house techs that is detailed in what everything does. Personal opinion tho, coming from someone who is rather a stickler about having as much paperwork generated as possible so as to be super clear about everything... I also try and make a cheat sheet with colors and whatnot for the board op that even a monkey could read...
 
I used to love paperwork, but now I don't. I want to know as little as I need to for me to get my job done as a programmer. I don't need to know what the fixture is lamped at, what the exact gel is, or what the name of the gobo is, just where the fixture points, the circuit #, the channel #, and so on.

Too often someone will give me the groups they want to use, but when it comes time to program they don't reference the fixtures by their group numbers, so I kill a lot of time looking on my list of 25 groups for a one-off every time they want "those two lights with the gobos in them."

With my Congo Jr. I love being able to toss groups onto the master playback wing because it labels the faders automatically and with the push of single button, I can select all of the channels in a group. It makes programming go pretty smoothly. However, I'm just as quick at programming without faders, though sometimes someone will be indecisive about where they want certain lights to be, so they ask to have me put a few on faders for them that can be operated independent of the cue stack.

Flash 'n trash is a whole different beast, though. I wouldn't be able to do that without my playback wing.

I always seem to encounter a recurring problem with students, which is that they grow up on individual channel faders, and teaching them to use groups, subs, masters, and presets is painfully difficult because they don't like to type things in; they just want to push each individual channel fader up. That's not terrible when you only have 20 channels of conventional lighting, but when you have 150, good luck. Whenever a student wants to work in our roadhouse, I judge their competence not on simply being capable of programming a show, but on being able to organize their show files in meaningful and deliberate ways that allow them to quickly reference any groups and channels that they need to. Anyone can program a 170-cue show one channel at a time, but to be competent to work in the roadhouse, you need to be able to work lot faster than that.

While two-scene presets used to be good for teaching, now they're more dangerous than they are helpful. For people who plan to move on and program for larger events, they are awful at teaching good programming techniques. Every time I hear someone tell me they are irritated at not being able to use individual channel faders on our shows with 250+ channels of conventionals, I die a little bit more inside.

The best advice I can give to people moving on from two-scene presets to larger boards is to not be afraid of groups and programming in broad strokes, but to embrace this new feature and use it to your benefit. Organizing show files and structuring them in a sensible format is an incredibly valuable and completely necessary skill that two-scene presets just can't prepare you for.

An interesting tidbit of wisdom on this note, is that most of the two-scene presets out there on the market (here's looking at you, Express!'), while capable of being used as two-scene presets, and can be called two-scene presets, are rarely used as such. A lot of people were extremely angry at ETC for dropping the Express line because it marked the end of two-scene presets in the educational lighting markets, but when asked how many of them actually used their consoles as two-scene presets, almost nobody said they did. Programming channel-by-channel is just too inefficient. Groups and submasters on faders are nice, but once you've built your entire cue stack, the lack of motorized faders on most consoles means to ever edit your levels below what they're initially programmed at, you need to type them in.

Typing is the way of the future until motorized faders are standard. Even if/when they are standard, a lot of people will be so used to inputting by keypad that even motorized faders will slow them down. The next worst thing to programming channel-by-channel is using the mouse to program on desks like Congo, Ion, Element, and so on. Anyone who has taken a demo or training session from Spencer Lyons knows that he'll just about slap your hand if you grab the mouse, because it serves purely as a crutch for people who don't want to navigate using the keypad. If you're desperate, it'll get the job done, but there's a dozen better ways to navigate that will speed up your programming ten-fold. (this is what the entire debate on faders is about -- which methods are the most practical and efficient)
 
I think it comes down to one key word - flexibility. On a console that will be used by a lot of different people under a lot of different circumstances, you will most likely at least want some submasters. I don't find channel faders as important, but it is nice to at least have enough to bring up individual instruments on the FOH catwalk. That's purely a luxury though. If I have faders available, I will use them for setting the front light, but not for anything else. --That's what magic sheets, groups and submasters are for.
 
Well, I use a two scene board that also has subs, a memory stack, and thumb wheels to control the parametere/attributes for the intels. I am biased because I learned on a 2 scene board, but the fact is, I rely on the ability to control individual channels on an as needed basis. My venue/application is typically education, primarily at the middle/high school level with a maximum of ~50 dimmers. Why do I need the faders: students do not always stand in exactly the "right" spot--so faces may not be lit adequately. You can take the attitude of "the director should have corrected that...That's what tech rehearsals are for"... But the bottom line is: I'm doing live theater with kids and there are going to be mistakes. If I can cheat in CH 3 at 30 because the 3 kids that are blocked for DSL are too far to DSC, then no one will ever know there was a "mistake". And as for typing it on a command line, that may be quicker, but 1) the board I use doesn't offer command line editing, 2) I can get instant feedback as I raise the fader, and 3) I can cheat it in at a rate that no one will ever notice an extra light or two has come on. Just MHO...
 
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Quite frankly, thats just letting them get away with poor paperwork practices.
Like I said, some of our designers are better than others. We're working on the others ;).

But even if the paperwork is the best in the world, it's still faster for me to hit the subs marked "Front N/C", "Top+Scrolls", and "Side Temp" than it is to look through the paperwork and punch in a bunch of channel numbers. From there I can tweak specific channels, but subs can get something up and running much faster.
 
...try to decipher their purpose shorthand on the LW paperwork (some of our designers are better than others in this respect) or (worse) run through channel numbers to figure out what's what.
I had a dream like that once!:eek:
 
... and 3) I can cheat it in at a rate that no one will ever notice an extra light or two has come on. Just MHO...
And what does one do when a channel is too bright and needs to be lowered? Additive (or pile-on) channel faders/submasters are almost useless for editing a recorded cue. An exception can be made for the Element, with its LTP handles.
 
JohnA said:
3) I can cheat it in at a rate that no one will ever notice an extra light or two has come on. Just MHO...

Ch. 3 @ 30 Sneak Enter if on an ETC console. It all depends on what the console gives you, be it channel faders or not. There is generally a way to do whatever you want to accomplish once one is familiar enough with the board one has been given.
 
In response to previous comments:

FYI-I don't use any ETC boards on a regular basis. The board I do use controls intensity/conventionals via faders on an HTP basis only. If a cue is too bright-I have several choices: 1) pull down the playback master a very small amount (lowering all output), 2) edit the channel that is too bright and re-record the cue, or 3) use the "Grab" function, which literally allows me to take control of any channels (s) to set/hold them at whatever level I want--effectively changing the fader to LTP.

I won't argue that the ETC boards are nice, but out here in the "freelance world", we don't all have access to ETC products, but I make do with what is available; I can do a fair amount of both conventional/intel lighting & FX with this "Hog clone".
 
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I have to hit a series of (2) buttons to activate "grab". Then I adjust the appropriate channel fader (s) one at a time. I move the fader to the current output level-that latches the fader into a "take control" mode. The fader is then adjustable to any level--independent of all cues until I release it from <grab>, at which time it goes to the assigned level in the current cue. The only caveat is if you have a B/O cue coming up, you must be certain to release the "grab" to avoid a solo light situation. I hope that description makes sense.
 
It does, thank you. So basically what it does is turns the faders into LTP. Very useful. I just wonder why they didn't make the faders LTP to begin with. :rolleyes:
 
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On the expression line you can go GROUP SUB # and then you can use the wheel to slowly lower the intensity. Its helpful for when you have your subs labeled but not your groups.

You can use the same process on the RFU, but with the -,+ keys. Handy when your on the stage and forgot about a sub.
 

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