Installs Church re-organisation

[techietim]

Hi All,

We are about to take out our pews at church (and having chairs - that can be moved - put in) and that means that we will have to do something with the tech corner.

There are 3 main options which I have come up with so far and I'd like your opinion and any other ideas you may have:

1. Leave it
   Leave the area as it is, in a mess and not really great...
2. Ceneteralised area
   This is my personal preference (You also get a much better idea of the FoH mix from there).
   Have a desk of some description put in at the very back of the church in a centeral area which the PC and Sound operators can sit at and operate. Then we can just extend/bring over the existing cables from the corner (which would be on the left of the centeral location).
3. Cabinets
   I've seen churches before that have to clear away the floor afterwards have all of their stuff (mixers, PCs etc) in big equipment cabinets on wheels that just plug into a wall port and then work from there.
   Does anyone know what these are called and where I could get a price?
   We currently have 2 analogue snakes running from the front to the back which would mean we'd need to have some kind of multicore plug? Do these exist?

Any comments or other ideas would be much appreciated as I'm aware there is a few on here who regularly do AV installs (of various descripts).

Many thanks!

 

[JohnD]

While waiting for responses here, might I suggest you also take a look at the Prosoundweb.com forums, especially the HOW forums.
Here is a thread you might find relevant.
I'll show you mine if you show me yours

 

[museav]

I think many of the technical details can be worked out, however there are likely some practical and existing condition issues to consider first. How well does your existing situation work and could it just be cleaned up? Could you relocate the mix position without the equipment, operators or cabling creating a potential trip hazard or it potentially impeding egress or accessibility? How would you address power if you moved the FoH location? Will the church leadership or those involved in such decisions accept a new fixed location? Are there any related security issues?

 

[techietim]

While waiting for responses here, might I suggest you also take a look at the Prosoundweb.com forums, especially the HOW forums.
Here is a thread you might find relevant.
I'll show you mine if you show me yours

Thanks for that! Having good fun scrolling through those getting ideas!

 

[techietim]

I think many of the technical details can be worked out, however there are likely some practical and existing condition issues to consider first. How well does your existing situation work and could it just be cleaned up? Could you relocate the mix position without the equipment, operators or cabling creating a potential trip hazard or it potentially impeding egress or accessibility? How would you address power if you moved the FoH location? Will the church leadership or those involved in such decisions accept a new fixed location? Are there any related security issues?

Yeah, technical/equipment wise due to the money the church are spending on the 're-vamp' we're probably not going to be getting anything/much new stuff. I'd certainly be looking to tidy everything though as years of various operators has created what, I guess you could call, 'a mess'.

Relocating to a centeral FoH position shouldn't be too much of an issue as most of the cables can be brought over under the floor boards and the same with electric. We have 2 fully qualified electricians in our church who would be carrying out that work so it will be perfectly safe.
Currently the area is already FoH just in a corner at the back where hearing the mix you are outputting is extremly difficult and often results in problems with the lesser experience operators.

The plan for me is just to get various ideas and submit them to the team and ultimately they will decide, however I think they are fairly open to ideas at the moment.

Thanks.

 

[techietim]

I should have probably also included some of the details about what we are running for more information (or just general interest! )
Can't remember the models of everything but I'll try.

A lot of it is very old and a mish-mash (slightly disowning it...)!

Sound

• (Band) Mixer - Phonic Impact II 24 Channel
• (Mic) Mixer - Studiomaster Diamond 12 Channel
• Amp - No idea...500w?
• Sony DVD player
• 3 Trantec Wireless Mics
• 3 TOA Wireless Mics
• 2 Lecturn Mics
• Various SM58s for band etc

Projection

• Optoma DLP projector
• Custom built (by one of our techies) PC - not too bad!
• 21" LCD monitor
• Capture card for DVD playback/video etc

Recording

• 2 fixed 'CCTV' cameras (not my choice!)
• DVD recorder
• 3 way video switch (RCA)
• Tascam CD-RW900SL (CD Recorder)
• CRT TV for viewing
• Portable Recorder (records to SD for website)

 

[gafftaper]

You'll probably have a war on your hands if you try to move that all out of the corner. And the truth is the only thing that needs to move is the sound mixing desk. Video and recording don't need to be in a central location and they don't need to be with the sound operator. Invest $2000 in a small clearcom system and they can talk as needed. You could put the sound gear all in a rolling rack or two with a couple of floor pockets and the entire system could be cleared out and locked up. Or you could have a carpenter build you a nice cabinet built with a folding locking lid. Make sound permanent in the back center location.

It's really a question of how bad is the audio situation now vs. how much support you have within the church to disrupt the natural flow of the room.

 

[techietim]

You'll probably have a war on your hands if you try to move that all out of the corner. And the truth is the only thing that needs to move is the sound mixing desk. Video and recording don't need to be in a central location and they don't need to be with the sound operator. Invest $2000 in a small clearcom system and they can talk as needed. You could put the sound gear all in a rolling rack or two with a couple of floor pockets and the entire system could be cleared out and locked up. Or you could have a carpenter build you a nice cabinet built with a folding locking lid. Make sound permanent in the back center location.

It's really a question of how bad is the audio situation now vs. how much support you have within the church to disrupt the natural flow of the room.

Hi, I think I'd have a war on my hands if I tried to seperate them to be honest...
I know it's not necessary to have them together but I think they would prefer to be!

I like the idea of the rolling rack, do you know where I can look at these online, I can't seem to find them...
As per my earlier question, can you easily create one large socket for all the inputs and outputs?

I like the ideas of a permenant cabinet too, its either that or the portable option (obviously! ).

What are people views on having a desk to one side at a say, 45° to the walls, looking out over the congregation? Raised slightly maybe?

 

[venuetech]

can you easily create one large socket for all the inputs and outputs?

what you are looking for is usually called a "mass multi pin connector" if you do a web search on that you should have some hits.
They do save a lot of time, but if some sort of problem comes up it could be a real pain to trouble shoot.


a rolling roll-top desk for your desk.
https://d1rztaqenlornr.cloudfront.net/Flyers-Brochures/FLY_Rack_ERT.pdf

other things that may be of intrest.
http://www.radialeng.com/rcs/snakes_dogsled.htm

http://www.thomann.de/gb/prod_cbundle_506.html?gk=kasb&cbcid=3465&art=135692

 

[TimmyP1955]

Make sure that the seating is arranged so that the speakers can properly cover everyone. Many do not.

Get a console that can be controlled via iPad. You won't have to move anything, and the mixperson can choose any seat in the house.

 

[techietim]

what you are looking for is usually called a "mass multi pin connector" if you do a web search on that you should have some hits.
They do save a lot of time, but if some sort of problem comes up it could be a real pain to trouble shoot.


a rolling roll-top desk for your desk.
https://d1rztaqenlornr.cloudfront.net/Flyers-Brochures/FLY_Rack_ERT.pdf

other things that may be of intrest.
Radial Engineering Custom Shop

Creative Bundle #506 - Thomann UK

Thanks venuetech! The mass multi pin connectors are exciting...
Haven't seen any 'sockets' as such for these yet? Do they exist?

 

[techietim]

Make sure that the seating is arranged so that the speakers can properly cover everyone. Many do not.

Get a console that can be controlled via iPad. You won't have to move anything, and the mixperson can choose any seat in the house.

Tell me about it! There are a few people at the church with theatrical backgrounds so elements of the sound aren't too bad.
Almost all of the 'house' is covered with the speakers, a few deadspots are inevitable though..

I'd love to have an iPad controlled desk like the Behringer X32, but I really don't think the budget will stretch that far... (or to a cheaper variation)
We'd need around 36 channels (plus), any ideas on the cheapest?

 

[techietim]

I thought it might also be helpful if I showed you around the existing space/solution, might be helpful!
Apologies for the bad pictures...

(Sub) 'Microphone' desk - Music Group desk and Microphones come into this desk then to the amp


Music Group desk - where the band is mixed (you can also see the sockets!)


Sound 'rack' - DVD, Loop amp and feedback destroyer (I don't see the point...) plus remotes


PC Operator


Recording rack (DVD, CD, MP3)


Speakers and camera - looks worse than it is...fairly new install and works well. You can also see the projection screen (front projection), music group and also the camera above the rear speaker for the video recording. There is also a pencil condenser microphone to pick up the congregation for the recordings.


(From church website)

Foyer (entrance)


Sanctuary (back)


Sanctuary (front)


When we eventually get around the re-organising all this I'll post the photos on here (could be a while though!)

 

[gafftaper]

Spend some time looking at websites for custom made road cases. It would be pricey (probably a couple grand), but someone like Georgia Case would be happy to custom make you a rolling case that handles everything in your rack all in one awesome case designed the way you want for your gear. Have everything all quickly unlatch, pop in the mass multipin connector and you are good to go.

 

[techietim]

Spend some time looking at websites for custom made road cases. It would be pricey (probably a couple grand), but someone like Georgia Case would be happy to custom make you a rolling case that handles everything in your rack all in one awesome case designed the way you want for your gear. Have everything all quickly unlatch, pop in the mass multipin connector and you are good to go.

Yeah, I guess I could find an equivalent UK based company...could always put it to the church as an idea
The idea of a mass multi pin connector is very tempting, however have still not been able to find a socket

 

[Chris15]

The Whirlwind MASS connectors are hermaphroditic, ergo they are half male, half female and so mate with the same connector type.

In the UK, I'd be much more tempted to use LK from Link Italy or one of the other intermateable equivalents.
But give me a choice and I'll use them over a MASS any day of the week...

 

[JohnD]

Thanks for posting the photos. Looking at them, I think option 1 seems to be the logical one. You don't really have another great location. In a perfect world if the entry doors could be split and moved to the other side of the buttresses (photo9), then you would have the perfect location for a raised tech world. As far as going digital, that would be great and you should also consider the Soundcraft Expression series especially with a stage box. No mass connectors required, just a single Cat5 or 6 from mix position to band area. I do hope you are looking for a market for the pews, they are very nice and selling them to someone else will help in your budget. EDIT: More eye candy for tech people, here is another company that makes roll top desks (which can be on wheels). http://www.hsarolltops.com/

 

[techietim]

The Whirlwind MASS connectors are hermaphroditic, ergo they are half male, half female and so mate with the same connector type.

In the UK, I'd be much more tempted to use LK from Link Italy or one of the other intermateable equivalents.
But give me a choice and I'll use them over a MASS any day of the week...

Thanks Chris15, I'll look into LK connectors..

 

[techietim]

Thanks for posting the photos. Looking at them, I think option 1 seems to be the logical one. You don't really have another great location. In a perfect world if the entry doors could be split and moved to the other side of the buttresses (photo9), then you would have the perfect location for a raised tech world. As far as going digital, that would be great and you should also consider the Soundcraft Expression series especially with a stage box. No mass connectors required, just a single Cat5 or 6 from mix position to band area. I do hope you are looking for a market for the pews, they are very nice and selling them to someone else will help in your budget. EDIT: More eye candy for tech people, here is another company that makes roll top desks (which can be on wheels). HSA - Rolltop Desks, Racks & Podiums

No problem JohnD! Option 1 is not the one I want! Haha!

It is a real shame that we don't have any other great places for techies

It would be really awesome if we could move the doors to the sides and have a raised techie area but like you say, by the time you've had structural engineers, then builders etc. it really isn't worth it and probably wouldn't get permission..
The other problem with going with option one, as I found out today, well two problems:
1) Room is really tight! If the sound operator wants to go in or out (which they often do), then the PC operator has to wheel their chair out into the isle trying to avoid knocking over the congregation. Not ideal..
2) Mixing locations (and the desks in general - retro or what?!) when mixing at the music group desk, all you can see is the wall and really it's not great having mixing desks in all different locations so it would be nice to get a new desk, hopefully digital. Wasn't too keen on the look of the Studiomaster but hey, if it works (well), who cares!

Totally agree about the pews, initially they were just trying to find someone who would "come and take them away for free"...but from various research and sources pews are worth a fair bit! Definitely would discourage them doing that...wouldn't say no to some budget for the techies!!

Roll top desks do seem quite popular and I did look at them originally, I think this could be the option to go.

I'm thinking the best option at the moment from the help you guys have provided is to have 2 (or 1 large) desk with a roll top lid to have everything in then a mass connector/Cat5 (or 6).


What do you think about extending the desk when the pews are removed into the 'isle' (which wont be an isle as such as the chairs can be moved..) and setting up a new clearner permenant desk area there?

 

[museav]

A few thoughts:

• Putting everything together in one location with room for people to move may require quite a bit of floor space. Have you tried to layput or mockup what space or dimensions would be desired?
• With movable chairs you can probably somewhat work the aisles, etc. around what you develop for the tech position, however you probably cannot create trip hazards or impede egress with any cables, snakes, etc. They can likely cannot cross where people would normally walk, which unless the main traffic paths are to the center of the room from and/or in front of the tech position could be a challenge since you are at or near the main entrance.
• MASS, Ramlatch, LK, Cannon, etc. multipin connectors may be fine for audio and low voltage control but may not work for all of the signal types involved. Something like the Wireworks AV2000 products (AV2000 - The Wireworks Store) may work for audio and low voltage control as well as analog video and SD/HD-SDI but probably not for network/CAT/8P8C, DVI, HDMI, DisplayPort, USB, etc. And you also have to address power.
• Roll top desks can be great but think about the height required to clear monitors, etc. with the roll top closed and how that may affect sightlines during use. You may have to simply lay down monitors, etc. for storage or you can find some very creative solutions with recessed monitors, portions of desks that can be lowered for storage, etc. but you are probably going to pay a premium for such features, which leads to...
• Custom portable racks or cabinets that are typically aesthetically acceptable in House of Worship applications along with any related cabling and connectors could easily cost more than a digital console with iPad/tablet wireless remote mixing.