Control/Dimming Deep LED trouble!

[AllyG]

Let me get right to the point. I have really only designed conventional lighting before, but I got this idea to buy LEDs. I volunteer at a small community theatre and don't really have a lot of money in my budget for this coming fiscal year. Like less than 2 grand.

I ordered ColorBlast TRs. I stupidly thought I could daisy chain them together and run them right to my ETC Express. Now that I see them, it's clear that's not going to happen.

Not to put too fine a point on it, I have NO idea what to do. I know that i need a LED controller. the colorkinetics website suggests that i get both a power/data supply AND a controller. I flat out do not have the money for both. I think maybe I just need to get a controller. I don't even think the lights will work otherwise.

I'm totally confused and I have no one to talk to about this. If anyone has any ideas, I would really appreciate it.

 

[bishopthomas]

The ColorBlasts require an external power supply (PDS-750 TR). What was your first hint that you couldn't plug them into your console? Did you hold up the 4 pin cable on the ColorBlast, look at the ETC Express and go, "Huh?" No offense, but this is what happens when uneducated people "get some money in the budget." Researching before spending is a wise use of your time and resources. Sorry to be so blunt, but I feel very strongly about this "throwing a pile of money at something in hopes of fixing it" type of mentality.

 

[Sony]

All you need is a Power Supply that can take a DMX input from your Express and send it to the Colorblasts, Doug Fleenor makes one as well as Color Kinetics I'm sure makes one as well.

Doug Fleenor Design - LED 300 Power Supply

Unfortunately the power supply is expensive and is probably going to cost you almost your entire budget, which you already spent. What you could do which would be cheaper is call your local rental house (most likely in Chicago since you are in Illinois) and rent JUST the power supply for the Colorblasts. I'm sure any major rental house in your area would carry a PSU that is compatible with the Colorblasts, most likely a PDS-750 TR which I know is what ALPS carries in my area. It would be a cheaper option until next year when you can afford to buy a power supply.

 

[BillESC]

You'd probably be better off and happier to send the CB's back for a refund and ordering fixtures with built-in power supplies and that accept standard DMX cable. Much easier to deal with.

I'd also suggest a fixture that offers RGBAW color mixing since this is for theatre, it will allow you a wider color pallette and the ability to create pastels.

 

[cdcarter]

Let me get right to the point. I have really only designed conventional lighting before, but I got this idea to buy LEDs. I volunteer at a small community theatre and don't really have a lot of money in my budget for this coming fiscal year. Like less than 2 grand.

I ordered ColorBlast TRs. I stupidly thought I could daisy chain them together and run them right to my ETC Express. Now that I see them, it's clear that's not going to happen.

Not to put too fine a point on it, I have NO idea what to do. I know that i need a LED controller. the colorkinetics website suggests that i get both a power/data supply AND a controller. I flat out do not have the money for both. I think maybe I just need to get a controller. I don't even think the lights will work otherwise.

I'm totally confused and I have no one to talk to about this. If anyone has any ideas, I would really appreciate it.

Your Express will work fine as a controller, but either way you do need a PDS. The PDS will take the DMX line from your console, and will have multiple 4-pin outs, and you run 4-pin from each out to each Blast. They do not daisy chain, but you can daisy chain out of the PDS to other things on your DMX line.

 

[xander]

Don't fret! The CB community is here to help.

Yes, proper research before a purchase is the best approach to take, but we can't go back in time, now can we? If you can return the units for a full refund and purchase self contained units, that is an option. However, while fixtures with built in power supplies are more "plug and play," so to speak, they have their own disadvantages. The units themselves are going to be bigger (having to contain a transformer and all the necessary circuitry for power and data) and may be more expensive. That is not going to be true all the time as there is an extremely wide range of prices for LED fixtures and it of course "depends" on a lot of different factors: brand, number of units, etc.

Let's get some more information before we jump to any grand conclusions--or solutions. What do you intend to use the fixtures for? How many units do you have? What size is the space? Do have an existing inventory or DMX (5-pin or 3-pin) or "scroller" (4-pin) cable? Do you have an existing power supply for that matter (for, say, color scrollers)? It may not be compatible with the CBs, but it is possible.

The CK ColorBlast is a great little unit. It is built extremely well. Great colors for only RGB. Bright. Very compact (excellent truss warmer). Great manufacturer with strong dealer network. These may not be qualities that you are looking for at the community theater level, but hey, maybe they are.

The biggest issue I see you having with them is that they are not daisy-chainable. You need a 4-pin homerun from each unit to the PSU. If you only have 2 units, maybe that's not a big deal. Plus, if you only have 2 units then there is probably a cheaper solution than the PDS-750 TR. But, on the other hand, if you have 12 units then the 4-pin cable can become another big chunk of money.

Food for thought.
-Tim

EDIT: cdcarter responded while I was typing so there is some redundancy

 

[derekleffew]

Note that with the City Theatrical/Color Kinetics PDS-750 or PDS-375, the outputs are labeled 1-12 or 1-6, and one must plug each fixture into the correct output.

With the Fleenor LED 300, all of the outputs are the same, so each fixture must be addressed using a device called a Zapi. Note that there are no thumbwheels, dipswitches, or any other addressing mechanisms on the CB12 fixture itself.

 

[JChenault]

Just to expand on the issue of CK and ColorBlasts.

There are two primary flavors of ColorBlast fixtures.

The ColorBlast Powercore line needs a PowerData Enabler to make it work. This is a box which takes in the DMX ( say from your console) and takes in 120 volt power, and then sends the DMX over 120 volts to each fixture. The power to the fixtures can either home run to the PowerData Enabler, or the fixtures can be wired in parallel. Since we are dealing with 120 volts and (usually) a permanent install, this is usually through conduit.

In the 'standard' ColorBlast, you need a PowerData Supply which puts out low voltage, and DMX feed on three wires. The number of units you can put on the Power Supply is limited, and ( for the colorblast) you must do a home run to the PowerData Supply for each unit. ( Interestingly enough, this is not true of the MR16 type units).

The ColorBlast TR is CK's attempt at a theatrical fixture. But you do need a power supply. The City Theatrical version basically takes the CK unit and makes it a bit more rugged. I have not seen the Flenor version.

Just to make it more interesting, there is one more fixture for CK - the ColorBlaze. This is in the form factor of a striplight and has a built in power supply. IE you run a power line to each fixture, and a separate DMX line ( and the DMX can be daisy chained).


If you are going to keep your ColorBlast TR's you will need to buy a Power Supply for them. If you can return them, then you could look at other options.

Good luck

 

[dcollins]

and then sends the DMX over 120 volts to each fixture

Please tell me that the DMX to the devices is over a separate data pair than power, that the data pair operates well below 120V, and that the power to the devices isn't really a full 120V? Most devices that use a power supply also step the voltage down and rectify it to DC, and with good reason.

 

[epimetheus]

Please tell me that the DMX to the devices is over a separate data pair than power, that the data pair operates well below 120V, and that the power to the devices isn't really a full 120V? Most devices that use a power supply also step the voltage down and rectify it to DC, and with good reason.

I was curious about JChenault's statement as well. While it is possible to send the DMX via the same conductors as the power, even at 120VAC (power line carrier), that can't be the best design. I would think harmonics on the line would cause all kinds of potential interference to the modulated DMX signal.

 

[JChenault]

Please tell me that the DMX to the devices is over a separate data pair than power, that the data pair operates well below 120V, and that the power to the devices isn't really a full 120V? Most devices that use a power supply also step the voltage down and rectify it to DC, and with good reason.

I misspoke slightly in my earlier post. Sorry for the confusion.

Remember that CK is originally, and at it's heart IMHO, an architectural lighting company. They have gone to a lot of trouble to make it easy for electricians to install their gear.

The devices that use a power supply ( Such as those purchased by the OP) use three wires between the fixture and the powersupply . ( +24 volts, Com, and Data).
You are limited by the power output of the power supply as to how many fixtures you can run.

The PowerCore fixtures ( those that use a data enabler ) use four wires from the Data Enabler to the fixture. Hot, Neutral, Ground, and Data. My understanding is that there is line voltage over those cables ( although I have never metered it that is what the documentation implies ). The advantage to the powercore line is that it is easier to install, and you are not limited by a 60 to 100 watt power supply.

Now just to make life interesting - CK also makes an MR16 lamp which is intended to be used in a low voltage fixture. This takes a special power supply that puts the data and low voltage on a single pair of wires. So you can wire up your track light to the power supply just using two wires, run your DMX to the power supply, and you are good to go.


My understanding by the way is that what goes over the wire from the data enabler ( or power supply) to the fixtures is not DMX, but is their proprietary protocol. Again I have never taken the time to look but that is my understanding.

 

[AllyG]

Thank you for being so frank. And I never claimed to be an educated designer. I'm a costume designer who basically taught myself to design lights because I have an artistic eye. But I am fixing this problem without "throwing a bunch of money at it." I did what I always do. Allow myself about two hours to panic, during that time I posted this plea, then I called someone who knows more about it than I do.

 

[banjokeith]

What was your first hint that you couldn't plug them into your console? Did you hold up the 4 pin cable on the ColorBlast, look at the ETC Express and go, "Huh?" No offense, but this is what happens when uneducated people "get some money in the budget."

I'm sorry, but anyone who posts a response like this to an honest question has no purpose contributing to a forum. I don't care if you've posted 359 times, or have been thanked as many times as you have, but the original question was a valid one. Maybe it isn't a mistake that you or I would have made, but it's an honest, simple one and is exactly the type of question that should be asked here. Instead of getting an intelligent response like returning the fixtures for a more appropriate model or buying a power supply (which they eventually got from slightly more balanced members), this person - a volunteer at a community theater - is met with your asinine lecture.

Maybe you feel strongly about people making incorrect purchases, but I feel just as strongly about people on this forum using their "expertise" to rip into people who are just here trying to solve a problem.

 

[bishopthomas]

I'm sorry, but anyone who posts a response like this to an honest question has no purpose contributing to a forum. I don't care if you've posted 359 times, or have been thanked as many times as you have, but the original question was a valid one. Maybe it isn't a mistake that you or I would have made, but it's an honest, simple one and is exactly the type of question that should be asked here. Instead of getting an intelligent response like returning the fixtures for a more appropriate model or buying a power supply (which they eventually got from slightly more balanced members), this person - a volunteer at a community theater - is met with your asinine lecture.

Maybe you feel strongly about people making incorrect purchases, but I feel just as strongly about people on this forum using their "expertise" to rip into people who are just here trying to solve a problem.

I'm sorry that I'm such a big bad meanie head and hurt people's frail feelings. You're right, it's not a mistake that I would have made. Not because I already knew that Colorblasts need a power supply, but because I value the dollar enough to do research on what I spend my money on before I jump face first into it. I'm thinking about buying a surf board. Instead of going to the first surf shop I see and throwing them my credit card I am doing research first. My friend has been surfing all his life and I will take him with me and buy whatever he tells me to get. I don't know why that thought process is so "asinine," and if I had used Ally's method then my surfer friend would have every right to "rip into" me and be upset that I didn't ask him for advice. I'm not saying that I want Ally to ask ME for advice, but surely there was someone around. The Internet is a wonderful place. Manuals for gear are just a Google search away.

By the way, the first sentence I typed was the power supply model number. I thought maybe she could extrapolate from that that she could buy the power supply as one option. I also thought the obvious answer of "return them" was also implied. Your shoes don't fit? See if you can return them for some that do...

I have no problem in a non-tech person (costume designer in this case) wanting to make an improvement in other areas (lighting system here), I think it shows wonderful initiative and we've all been there. But in this case because she decided not to inform herself before making a purchase she has wasted someone else's money. I can't excuse that and think it far more of a crime than my blunt and "abusive" way of pointing it out. I wonder how the people in charge of the theatre feel after they trusted her with what little money they had...

 

[bishopthomas]

... during that time I posted this plea, then I called someone who knows more about it than I do.

So, what's the verdict? Could you return them or have you decided to get a power supply? They really are nice fixtures, if you can keep them you'll be glad you have them.

 

[derekleffew]

From ControlBooth's Mission:

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[banjokeith]

From ControlBooth's Mission:

I let my ticked get the best of me, and didn't mean to start a flame war. My apologies to everyone.