The above Ad will no longer appear after you Sign Up for Free!

Do you Harness when you Genie?

Discussion in 'Safety' started by tdtastic, Jun 18, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. tdtastic

    tdtastic Member

    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    22
    Occupation:
    Technical Director/ Designer
    Location:
    Alabama
    I'm going to get blasted for this, I just know it...

    Anonymous hands-up of how many of you are using harnesses in your genie or vertical 'stick' lift? Not talking boom or scissor lift. Within the 20-25 foot range.

    What ARE the actual regulations on that with OSHA or ANSI? (I haven't had time today to look those up myself today but plan to later)

    For what it's worth, I never have. Perhaps I'm totally wrong but my thinking has always been, "worse case scenario this thing is gonna tip over with my ass in the basket, and I might want to jump out. Or grab onto a batten or something. Why in the hell would I want to tether myself to it?!?" I could see falling off a lift if you're standing on top of or outside the basket, in which case you are a complete idiot and should have your lift privileges revoked. Also, I like to think myself less a dumbass because I ALWAYS use the outriggers as intended.

    You tell me: to harness or not to harness?

    be nice.
     
    RonHebbard likes this.
  2. egilson1

    egilson1 Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    449
    Likes Received:
    303
    Occupation:
    Rigging specialist
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    From genie industries.
    upload_2018-6-18_19-4-58.png
     
  3. RonHebbard

    RonHebbard Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    2,381
    Likes Received:
    999
    Location:
    Burlington, Ontario, Canada
    @tdtastic Here's all I'm willing to NOT type on the subject on the wide open internet.
    A fellow with whom I'm intimately familiar and who just MAY have been myself, used to regularly don either a waist belt, shoulder harness or full "sit harness" (which ever was most convenient at the moment) hop in a single person vertical lift, scissor lift or zoom boom and leave the lanyard's lower attachment hook either tossed over his shoulder or lying next to his feet on the floor of the lift. I KNOW the person I'm referring to is unwilling to type much more on the subject. Let's wrap this up by saying the person of whom I'm speaking is now blind, retired and hasn't been in any manner of lift since sometime in the fall of 2014. (Although he has once climbed to near the top of a 20' aluminum 'A' ladder to pass an XLR through gaps in a 'Q-deck' roof above a proscenium to aid a needy friend who's less than comfortable when his feet aren't on a finished floor.) More than enough NOT said on the subject.
    Stay safe.
    Toodleoo!
    Ron Hebbard
     
    tdtastic likes this.
  4. danTt

    danTt Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    579
    Likes Received:
    201
    Occupation:
    Master Electrician
    Location:
    NY
    I don't believe that there is a rated tie off point for human fall arrest in an AWP. Theres a point to tie off/secure tools, but AFAIK it's not rated for a person.

    It is interesting to me that the page that @egilson1 linked says that harnesses are not required in scissor lifts. There are two fall arrest points in a standard scissor lift, and anywhere more "constructiony" that I've worked has required harnessing into a scissor. Where does that info/page/screenshot come from?

    EDIT: read closer, saw the ansi standards referenced. https://safety.grainger.com/people/aerial-work-fall-protection has some more information.

    I think that the requirements may be different in canada?
     
  5. sk8rsdad

    sk8rsdad Well-Known Member Premium Member Fight Leukemia

    Messages:
    2,268
    Likes Received:
    785
    Location:
    Ottawa
    In Ontario a harness is required for any moving lift above 3 meters. I think the theory is to avoid ejection and to prevent an idiot from standing on the railings to get a little extra reach. In practice, I'm pretty sure the idiot wouldn't have a harness.
     
    Dionysus and RonHebbard like this.
  6. egilson1

    egilson1 Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    449
    Likes Received:
    303
    Occupation:
    Rigging specialist
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Ok. Let’s see how much I type here.

    I’m going to talk about how it is in the US, since that’s where the OP is.

    You are required by OSHA to wear Fall PROTECTION in any boom lift. The reason for this is to prevent you from being thrown from the basket during boom or vehicular movement, not to arrest you from falling over the railings as you climb it (wink wink). You can search the net for videos of people being thrown from lifts while driving. Because this is PROTECTION and not ARREST it can be a waist belt. But keep in mind that if you do wear a full body harness, you still need to comply with your free fall distance limitations, which in a lift can be tricky. The reality is a short 2’ lanyard or a self retractable lifeline is more appropriate that a 6’ lanyard ina lift.

    The reason you do not need to use a belt or harness in a scissor lift is OSHA classifies them as moving scaffold, and the railings act as the fall protection. IF you are transferring from ANY lift onto the building structure, you must have 100% tie off, as you will be serverting the fall protection (railings) and exposing yourself to fall risk. This is why in Scissor and AWP style lifts there is an attachment point.

    That being said, an employer can mandate you wear PFAS in a lift if they so see fit.

    That image I posted is from Genie Industries directly.

    OK....that wasn’t to bad. Could have been a lot longer.
    Ethan
     
  7. EdSavoie

    EdSavoie Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    474
    Likes Received:
    200
    Occupation:
    College Student
    Location:
    Windsor, ON, Canada
    Here in Ontario, it's the law to be harnessed up in any lift.
     
  8. Van

    Van CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

    Messages:
    5,866
    Likes Received:
    1,186
    Occupation:
    Project Manager, Stagecraft Industries, Inc.
    Location:
    Portland, Or.
    Had a good friend die a couple years ago because he wasn't harnessed in a lift. Wear a harness. As far as "jumping out and grabbing a boom" or Jumping away from the lift goes, you ain't a stunt man and this ain't Hollywood. You are tethered to the lift for the same reason you wear a belt in a Lift truck. It keeps you from having the truck fall on you.
    There is only one case I know of where being tethered was a detriment and it was an aberration and got tied up in courts for quite some time. When a some new construction collapsed as the new PDX airport was being built 3-4 men jumped of a falling area of concrete the others were tied off to various safety points all those tied off died. I don't know that this phenomenon has ever been repeated. If your on my crew you won't get a chance to test it.
     
    TimMc and RonHebbard like this.
  9. tdtastic

    tdtastic Member

    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    22
    Occupation:
    Technical Director/ Designer
    Location:
    Alabama
    Thanks for all the insight!
     
    RonHebbard likes this.
  10. spenserh

    spenserh Member

    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Chatham, Ontario
    Always, doesn't matter if you are just going up 10 feet to "make a quick adjustment" or maxing out the mast.
     
    RonHebbard likes this.
  11. StradivariusBone

    StradivariusBone Well-Known Member Fight Leukemia

    Messages:
    1,089
    Likes Received:
    396
    Occupation:
    Facility Manager/TD
    Location:
    Space Coast, FL
    There isn't in any Genie AWP I've ever seen. This came up with our safety to life department a few years back and that was our argument that there is no safe place to tether. I've heard of clipping in to a point outside the lift, but I don't see how that would be any safer in any circumstances operating the lift. It's pretty simple, just don't climb out of the bucket.
     
    RonHebbard likes this.
  12. MNicolai

    MNicolai Well-Known Member Fight Leukemia

    Messages:
    3,073
    Likes Received:
    1,043
    Occupation:
    Consultant
    Location:
    Sarasota, FL
    To add -- job-site restrictions may go above and beyond OSHA regs. It's not uncommon for anyone at a standing height of 6' AFF to be required to have a harness on. Someone hops in a scissor lift just to drive it around, they may be required to have their harness on even if they don't elevate the platform. In any case, if you are leaning out over the railings or standing on the toeboard to get extra reach, you definitely should be harnessed.

    My preference in general is self-retracting lifelines, and more construction sites I've been on in the last few years have required that SRL's be used instead of lanyards. This is because anything on a 8'-16' ladder, a traditional shock-absorbing lanyard is worthless because you'll go splat before you reach the end of the lanyard as it deploys. Whereas an SRL catches your fall and restricts your movement much earlier, reducing the length of shock-absorbed arrest required. In some situations it may even catch you fast enough that it doesn't need to deploy the shock pack and you don't need to be retrieved and hoisted back up by a third party.

    Story I heard from a TD a decade ago that happened at his alma mater somewhere in GA. Guy buckets up to lighting position. Guy clips lanyard to structure. College campus tour comes into theater showing prospective students around. Lift falls over. Guy gets tangled in lift during tip-over and gets his leg snapped like a toothpick. Guy dangles 20' up with his bone sticking out of his leg while other stagehands improvise best way to get him down. Campus tour guide quickly moves tour onward and out of the theater.

    There is a lanyard attachment point in AWP baskets, but I wouldn't trust my life to it. One of those things it's not bad if you use it for a work-positioning restraint, but if you fell out of the basket my expectation is the shock load would pull the lift over right on top of you. Could be a fun experiment to try with a manikin if someone has a junkyard-ready AWP.

    Skip to 25:40 for him to point the lanyard attachment point out.



    To answer the original Q though, I do not generally wear fall protection in a vertical mast lift. In a scissor, I will if I am leaning out over rails. In a boom lift I'm always tied off.
     
    TimMc likes this.
  13. Colin

    Colin Active Member

    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    93
    Occupation:
    Technical Director
    Location:
    Eastern Massachusetts
    1. Mr. Ethan Gilson is an expert who knows what he's talking about. Don't just believe him on the internet forum though - hire someone like him to train you.

    2. A Genie AWP type machine doesn't tip over or drop/launch a human out of it unless someone disobeyed required training, so do the training and devise effective supervision and enforcement of the rules without exception.

    3. I've never used the lanyard point in an AWP, but our EH&S department asked for us to make body belts and lanyards available for optional use to restrain the operator inside the guardrail. It wasn't easy finding a combination of belt and (short enough) adjustable lanyard to actually have this effect, but I managed, and now it adds a piece of training we have to do to show operators how to wear and adjust a belt and lanyard to function correctly so it isn't a false security tempting them to reach a little too far over the guardrail. So far nobody has chosen to use it.

    4. I sure would like if someone would make a video of a 350lb dummy having its fall arrested with any length lanyard attached to a Genie AWP's point atop a 30' fully extended mast with outriggers cranked just until they activate the interlock. I bet I'd poop a little, but it would be worth it.
     
    egilson1 and RonHebbard like this.
  14. MNicolai

    MNicolai Well-Known Member Fight Leukemia

    Messages:
    3,073
    Likes Received:
    1,043
    Occupation:
    Consultant
    Location:
    Sarasota, FL
    Someone out there has got to have an elderly lift they could donate to science.
     
  15. Jay Ashworth

    Jay Ashworth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,868
    Likes Received:
    366
    Location:
    St Pete FL USA
    We have a Genie, AWP-20 or equivalent, in one of my houses, and nobody uses a harness on it.

    We *do* use a harness to climb the 55 or so feet of ladders to our fly loft ceiling.
     
  16. seanandkate

    seanandkate Well-Known Member Fight Leukemia

    Messages:
    711
    Likes Received:
    165
    Occupation:
    Educator
    Location:
    Stouffville, Ontario
    I use a Genie lift as well as a scissor lift at present, and use a harness with both. I just got used to my various employers requiring it, and now I use it for the same reasons I signal turns on deserted roads--force of habit. (Although for quick jobs, I might do what @RonHebbard 's friend does... :shifty: )
     
    Van and RonHebbard like this.
  17. Chase P.

    Chase P. Active Member

    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    45
    Occupation:
    Freelance lighting designer, production manager
    Location:
    San Francisco
    I absolutely use a harness and Y lanyard in a boom lift, and this is why:

    I may use them in a scissor lift, though not required, if my work requires me to be leaning further over the edge than I'd like, or with something heavy that could screw with my balance (chain motors, moving lights).

    I occasionally use a harness with a self retracting safety line when hanging movers in the house of one particular venue. The genie has to be positioned on the stairs in the aisle, on some hefty purpose built platforms, and some leaning out is necessary to reach the box booms because of the outriggers on the lift. Since it's all up and down work there, and the building renovation included hang positions directly above for the life line, it makes it very easy to be very safe.

    When I'm running my own crews, I make harnesses available for both single person lifts and scissor lifts. They may not be required, but if the worker wants to use it, I think it's just fine. I'm less worried about pulling the lift over on oneself. The risk of that still seems like it's less than impacting the ground, which would certainly happen without the harness. Even if the lift did fall over with you, it's not guarantee to crush you, so it still seems like a slim margin of added safety.

    All that being said, I'm the idiot who's known for climbing on things I shouldn't, "just for a second, it's faster", though I'd never let my own crew do it. If it were up to me, I'd harness in and climb ladders vs. using a lift in most theatrical applications, like the box booms. I've had my feet run over by the genie too many times, and in some venues getting the thing to a useful location requires too many unsafe practices (ramps, platforms, appleboxes, dock plates). Sometimes a ladder and a retractable lifeline are the best solution.

    I once worked for a theater where I was told that the previous ME demanded the venue buy a harness (ok, that's a thing at the 12-16' ladder climbs there), but would lanyard off to the top of the ladder. As in to the "not-a-step" at the top. That's a great way to absolutely pull the ladder down on top of yourself if you fall!
     
  18. Dionysus

    Dionysus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,098
    Likes Received:
    179
    Occupation:
    Technical Director
    Location:
    London, Ontario, Canada
    As mentioned...

    You are supposed to tie off when in a lift, no matter the kind. However, it is not intended for the eventuality of the lift going over, which is the reason you hear again and again from people everywhere why they don't do it.
    You are supposed to tie off to prevent you from exiting the lift or from leaning too far out of it (which may cause a tipover).

    Now technically you don't have to use a fall arrest lanyard, you only need a fall PREVENTION lanyard. So no shock absorber. and the length needs to prevent you from doing something stupid.

    And yes, here in Canada it is absolutely required to tie off in ANY lift. This includes when driving one when all the way down.
     
  19. sk8rsdad

    sk8rsdad Well-Known Member Premium Member Fight Leukemia

    Messages:
    2,268
    Likes Received:
    785
    Location:
    Ottawa
    Regulation is at the provincial level, not the federal level. The Ontario regulation has 2 exceptions to the general rule

    Pedantically yours... @sk8rsdad
     
    RonHebbard likes this.
  20. TNasty

    TNasty Active Member

    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    30
    Occupation:
    Technical Adviser. Aux Police Officer.
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Gotta say, this thread has been educational for a certain somebody.

    Let's just say there's now a certain safety item in that certain someone's Amazon purchase history, and that the certain someone considers themselves lucky to have known the power of a wide stance and firm grip.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice