So i am working on a show called Stardust. In the is show the crazy director climbs to the top of a 10ft ladder to take down decorations. My crazy director wants the ladder to fall ought from under him and have the poor actor swing on a rope holding for dear life while his students scramble to put the ladder back under him. As the assistant stage manager its my job to make this work. The only problem is that i have never rigged an actor before and my theater dose not have a fly system. If anyone knows how i can do this and do it safely i would love to hear.
Flying actors with no fly system
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kiwitechgirl
Well-Known Member
There is one way, and one way only: you hire a professional flying company. Flying by Foy, ZFX, Hall Stage (there are others but I can't remember them off the top of my head). There is no way you can do this safely except by hiring in someone who knows what they're doing to make the effect work. And, it won't be cheap - but as a high school student you cannot take responsibility for this effect and your director needs to be made aware that it's going to cost money to make this work safely. The risk of it all going wrong if you do it in-house is just too high.
sarahsliefie
Active Member
You must say no! Unless they are willing to throw the money at it to hire a professional that will insure it you can not take the responsibility for someone's life. If the director throws a stink go to the business office and let the insurance people know about it. They will shut it down for you. If that does not work, walk away.
You are going to find help here but not what your teacher is looking for. Here you are going to find an endless march of professionals telling you that this is far too dangerous and that you must not do this stunt. We will help you... help you save the life of the actor your teacher is endangering with this idea. We will be happy to work with you to come up with alternatives of how to do this without endangering anyone.
If you teacher doesn't think it's a bad idea have your teacher call your district's Risk Management or Occupational Safety people for an opinion.
I'm sure one of our resident professional riggers will be along in a bit. CB members Mpowers and WhatRigger? fly people every day at work. They know what they are talking about. If you listen to any advice here listen to them.
I suggest you print this thread out and give it to your teacher.
If you teacher doesn't think it's a bad idea have your teacher call your district's Risk Management or Occupational Safety people for an opinion.
I'm sure one of our resident professional riggers will be along in a bit. CB members Mpowers and WhatRigger? fly people every day at work. They know what they are talking about. If you listen to any advice here listen to them.
I suggest you print this thread out and give it to your teacher.
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I am a rigger, hanging huge arena rigs, I do not fly people unless Foy or other company in involved. Foy is who I have worked with most often. Google theatre flying accidents and look at the long list of untrained people hurting people.
I suggest you give your director alternate ideas to make the same look to happen without the danger. Maybe something along the lines of being behind a set piece with a safety platform when he swings.
I suggest you give your director alternate ideas to make the same look to happen without the danger. Maybe something along the lines of being behind a set piece with a safety platform when he swings.
Also good reading:
http://www.controlbooth.com/wiki/Collaborative+Articles:Why+Not+to+Fly+DIY
http://www.controlbooth.com/wiki/Flying+Effects
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/special-effects/3673-about-thread-flying-without-all-rigging.html
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http://www.controlbooth.com/wiki/Collaborative+Articles:Why+Not+to+Fly+DIY
http://www.controlbooth.com/wiki/Flying+Effects
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/special-effects/3673-about-thread-flying-without-all-rigging.html
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Ok, I don't think I explained myself well enough. First I am not an incompetent airhead teenager that you all think I am. My director and I have absolutely no intention of doing any of this in-house. We were just thinking "blue sky" - what would be great to do if we had money and resources. I was excited and thought I'd take the initiative to do some research and learn about what it takes to make these things happen. Instead of reprimanding me you could have offered help or inquired to find out more before you attacked me and my teacher. I think some of you may have more experience than me, but you missed your chance to mentor - to help me - someone that will be working in your field. Nice job. I usually come to this site when we start a new show or new project to learn more. Thanks. I'll find another site, and hopefully some people who are willing to help.
JChenault
Well-Known Member
I want to put on my Devils Advocate hat here for a moment.
I completely agree with the need to get an expert in house if you are going to fly someone. I am not sure that this qualifies as 'Flying'.
As I understand the gag, the actor is going to climb up a ladder. He is going to firmly grasp a rope and kick the ladder away. ( I am assuming the rope will have some kind of knot to hold onto ) He will then hold the rope for a short period of time until the ladder is replaced - transfer his weight to the ladder and get down.
If we had a scene in a play in an old time Gym, and we had someone climbing a rope, ( Putnam County Spelling Bee comes to mind ) would that necessitate getting a flying expert? Or would it simply mean that we needed a rigger to make sure the climbing rope was anchored safely? To my mind this trick seems more like a rope climb than flying.
Now - at some point if the ladder gets very tall, or the actor will be hanging for a long time - we probably need a flying company around to help us figure out how to clip the actor in safely. If the rope wants to move up, down or sideways we need a flying company. but if the actor is hanging from a rope with his feet six to eight feet off the floor, do we need the flying experts? I'm not sure we do.
Now before folks start yelling, the real question I am trying to explore is what is that threshold you cross that says 'It is time to get a flying professional involved'
If the actor moves up / down or sideways - YES.
If the actor hangs for any appreciable amount of time - YES
If you what the actor to be wearing a harness to support his weight - YES
If the actor is 'too' high up ( and what do we mean by too high?) YES
I'm interested in others opinions.
I completely agree with the need to get an expert in house if you are going to fly someone. I am not sure that this qualifies as 'Flying'.
As I understand the gag, the actor is going to climb up a ladder. He is going to firmly grasp a rope and kick the ladder away. ( I am assuming the rope will have some kind of knot to hold onto ) He will then hold the rope for a short period of time until the ladder is replaced - transfer his weight to the ladder and get down.
If we had a scene in a play in an old time Gym, and we had someone climbing a rope, ( Putnam County Spelling Bee comes to mind ) would that necessitate getting a flying expert? Or would it simply mean that we needed a rigger to make sure the climbing rope was anchored safely? To my mind this trick seems more like a rope climb than flying.
Now - at some point if the ladder gets very tall, or the actor will be hanging for a long time - we probably need a flying company around to help us figure out how to clip the actor in safely. If the rope wants to move up, down or sideways we need a flying company. but if the actor is hanging from a rope with his feet six to eight feet off the floor, do we need the flying experts? I'm not sure we do.
Now before folks start yelling, the real question I am trying to explore is what is that threshold you cross that says 'It is time to get a flying professional involved'
If the actor moves up / down or sideways - YES.
If the actor hangs for any appreciable amount of time - YES
If you what the actor to be wearing a harness to support his weight - YES
If the actor is 'too' high up ( and what do we mean by too high?) YES
I'm interested in others opinions.
techieman33
Well-Known Member
You honestly got the best advice any responsible individual could give you. No one in their right mind would try to explain to you how this is done over the internet. Maybe you are just curious how it would be done if you brought in the pros to do it, but that doesn't mean the next person to come read this thread won't take the basic how things are done and try to do it without professional help and hurt someone. No one here wants to be responsible for someone getting hurt or killed because someone read about how to do something here without fully grasping all of the intricate details and risks.
OSHA says you need fall arrest above 6 feet, I would think that would be a good starting point. Even if it was 4' instead of 10' like the OP said they would still need to bring in some sort of professional help as I highly doubt as a high school they would have a qualified rigger on staff.
OSHA says you need fall arrest above 6 feet, I would think that would be a good starting point. Even if it was 4' instead of 10' like the OP said they would still need to bring in some sort of professional help as I highly doubt as a high school they would have a qualified rigger on staff.
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You'll probably find the best deal from whichever company is local to you, so in your case, yes, Foy's Nevada office would be your best bet.
ZFX (Kentucky), Hall Associates (Illinois), D2 (Maryland, Tennessee), and iWeiss (New Jersey) wouldn't be able to touch what Foy's pricing would be on the project purely by lack of proximity to you.
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kiwitechgirl
Well-Known Member
Apologies if I jumped down your throat - but as Gafftaper said, there have been too many deaths recently where this kind of effect has been undertaken by people who think they can make it work but don't know what they're doing. Your first post does read like there was a possibility you were going to try and do it in-house, which is why you got the reaction that you did. I wasn't trying to reprimand, just make a point pretty clearly. Also, I didn't assume you were an airhead incompetent teenager - I read the part in your post where you said you'd never flown an actor before and wrote my reply based on that...
I hope you can make it work with Foy - I've worked with their UK branch and they're great people. I learnt so much working on two shows with them - mostly that I should never attempt people-flying myself! - and it was a really good experience. Good luck persuading the school to give you the $$$ to make it work!
FatherMurphy
Active Member
Just out of curiosity, if a thread is started by someone with but a single post outside that thread, no information in their profile, and they list themselves as 'HS student', what sort of conclusions are we supposed to jump to regarding their knowledge and training?
There is indeed a tendency on this forum to err on the conservative side when making assumptions about a poster's knowledge or skill level. It isn't intended personally - as mentioned above, it's intended to prevent people now and in the future from hurting themselves or others. Be a bit more clear in future threads about who you are and what you've done in the past, and you'll get more specific information with fewer general cautions.
There is indeed a tendency on this forum to err on the conservative side when making assumptions about a poster's knowledge or skill level. It isn't intended personally - as mentioned above, it's intended to prevent people now and in the future from hurting themselves or others. Be a bit more clear in future threads about who you are and what you've done in the past, and you'll get more specific information with fewer general cautions.
Also, these threads stay available (for the most part) for anyone to read, and while you may be able to do everything safely, someone else who might not know everything that you do and that hasn't been said here.
I'm sorry if we made you feel bad because we didn't mean to. Please don't think that the reaction you received was questioning your skills as a technician or because of your age. If your post said the exact same thing but identified you as a teacher or a parent you would have gotten the same reaction. One of my friends here on CB has been carrying on lengthy private debates with an adult "professional" who continues to do some very dangerous rigging. There have simply been far too many deaths and injuries in theater over the last few years. We hear over and over stories about people who decide to do something like this and someone ends up dead or paralyzed. Did you know that half of the falls reported to OSHA from over 6' are fatal? It's sickening how many teachers are out there doing stuff like this without realizing the danger. I also have to confess that I was one of them 15 years ago. I rigged up a very dangerous flying effect for the Wizard of Oz hot air balloon. I got lucky and my students didn't get hurt. You might not be so lucky.
All that said, to do this stunt safely is going to cost a LOT of money. My kid's school did Peter Pan in a theater with nothing structurally safe to attach to for flying. I, working with Hall Associates, designed and installed a truss system to support the flying equipment. The rental on the truss alone was well over $1000, because of my experience I was allowed to install the system myself. Your school will probably have to pay the rental company to do the installation as well. Then we paid somewhere around $6000 to fly in their flight director and all his gear and pay for his hotel room... and that was for a simple system not their fancy rig. Don't forget the extra insurance your school will need to purchase. We bought a million dollar policy for our production which cost another hundred bucks or so.
Foy is the grandfather of flying effects. They have one way of doing a show... the Foy way. It'll look great and it'll be very safe and it'll be done right, but they don't like customizing to odd situations. When I started talking about the weird nature of the theater we were in they stopped returning my calls. ZFX and Hall were both willing to talk to me and we eventually went with Hall (I didn't contact D2 back then).
I see you are in California, are you in The L.A. area by chance? I happen to know that Hall Associates has a flight director who occasionally works for them who lives in the L.A. area. If a guy can do your gig and sleep in his own bed at night there is definitely the possibility for some serious savings but it's still going to be expensive.
All that said, to do this stunt safely is going to cost a LOT of money. My kid's school did Peter Pan in a theater with nothing structurally safe to attach to for flying. I, working with Hall Associates, designed and installed a truss system to support the flying equipment. The rental on the truss alone was well over $1000, because of my experience I was allowed to install the system myself. Your school will probably have to pay the rental company to do the installation as well. Then we paid somewhere around $6000 to fly in their flight director and all his gear and pay for his hotel room... and that was for a simple system not their fancy rig. Don't forget the extra insurance your school will need to purchase. We bought a million dollar policy for our production which cost another hundred bucks or so.
Foy is the grandfather of flying effects. They have one way of doing a show... the Foy way. It'll look great and it'll be very safe and it'll be done right, but they don't like customizing to odd situations. When I started talking about the weird nature of the theater we were in they stopped returning my calls. ZFX and Hall were both willing to talk to me and we eventually went with Hall (I didn't contact D2 back then).
I see you are in California, are you in The L.A. area by chance? I happen to know that Hall Associates has a flight director who occasionally works for them who lives in the L.A. area. If a guy can do your gig and sleep in his own bed at night there is definitely the possibility for some serious savings but it's still going to be expensive.
Crazy idea here, but what about using a chair/ short step stool instead of the 10' ladder and going for comical with him clinging for dear life 1-2' off the ground? You'd still need a safe place to rig a rope and some competent adult supervision, but that would be a lot safer (especially as you could even get the track coaches involved and use mats for rehearsals), and wouldn't require a flying rig.
Don't do it.
Good way for someone to crack their head on the stage floor, and depending on how you attach to the person, you could really hurt someone having them swing around recklessly. I say "recklessly", because nobody has any control of the person once the stool is gone. With a proper flying rig, someone always has control of the person in the air.
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