Genie Safety?

[jbeutt]

disc2slick,
You make a good point about not being pressured to do something you don't want to. I'm sure this is something many of us have encountered before. Those of you that haven't probably will at some point. If your friends make fun of you for using a Genie lift properly, well, they weren't your friends to begin with. Remember, just say NO to improper lift operation.

Serrrrriously, though. There's a lot of pressure as an intern or new guy to impress and accomodate, but when it comes to this, it's just super important to trust your gut. I mean if you don't feel uncomfotable being pushed in one of those things, you're just asking for trouble. Honestly, it's hard to feel comfortable on a single man lift when it's still and indoors. I can't imagine how uncomfortable I'd feel if it were being pushed.

In my mind, it's like seeing a ground lift on a plug. Now there's something none of us (maybe sound guys can relate better) would do. Safety chain on a fixture? How many have you seen fall, but we still do it.

 

[sound_nerd]

This a seriously incorrect practice. Although this is common, it it entirely unsafe and unprofessional. Basic physics will tell you this is a terrible idea and should NEVER be attempted by ANYONE. It's the job of an ME, TD or any professional to plan their time in a way that allows for safe working procedures. Not too long ago, a union worker here in SF was being pushed in a genie lift which fell and paralyzed him. Beforehand, I'm certain he thought it was worth the time saved. Probably not afterwards.
The outriggers and Genie lift system is designed for stationary use only. It's foolish and unprofessional to use it otherwise. Again, it's your job to plan a hang giving appropriate consideration to safety.
Do the math and see that given the right accelleration from the bottom, and too much top loading, the lift can easily topple. It might not even be user error, but a bump in the ground or someone on top being snagged on a fixture.
I don't for a second think this will stop anyone from doing this, but it's an important lesson to learn in this industry not to be too proud to be safe. We work with dangerous equipment and we should realize we as well as others are fallable, so we should take every precaution possible. You may trust yourself with equipment like this, but why neccessarily trust the guys on the ground, ESPECIALLY in an educational environment.
Furthermore, this being a public forum, I think it's innappropriate for people to advise improper handling of equipment like this. It's really upsetting to hear about things like this. If you want to go quickly, there ARE Genie scissor lifts and boom lifts that can move in the air. USE THEM!

Work belts, or work postion harness are acctualy no longer legal atleast in canada.
JH

While the belts are not, using a full body harness with a proper work positioning lanyard is completely safe and legal.

 

[jbeutt]

We both regularly get pushed around while ontop of the scaffolding. We don't even set the wheel locks when the scaffold is on the floor...We also don't use any type of safety harness

I should mention that I am known in the theatre for doing things that none of the other students are comfortable doing. Whenever I need to go somewhere I don't feel completely comfortable, I usually use a couple of lighting safety cables and a leather belt as a makeshift harness.

In High school, We had an crank one man lift(easyRizer?) that was prone to slipping and collapsing with people in the Bucket. When I was up in it, I jammed the ladders with a hammer. With this unit, we still moved it with people in the bucket. The outriggers were only used when we went higher than about 15 feet.

Well I guess honesty is the best possibility. I truly admire your ability to be honest about such operating procedures in light of the strong possibility that someone (like me) would get a little miffed about them.

Honestly, my main issue is with people being told or forced or convinced to do dumb and unsafe things. When people do them at their own accord and then seem to BRAG about it, then I completely support the ensuing accidents. In a school environment, though, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and place blame on your instructors for letting this stuff go on.

Seriously, man, I hope you stay safe out there. Maybe I'm the only one reading into your comments in this way, but I don't recommend bragging about these things in real life or when looking for a job. Employers don't usually want to hear how you'll be the only guy on their crew, for whome their company (or their SCHOOL!) is liable, who has no problem doing completely unsafe things.

I'm amazed that an educational institution is allowing these practices. I have a feeling that if they were aware of them and their own liability, they'd put a serious stop to it.

 

[jbeutt]

Ok. Fine. I won't bother trying to convince you that your practices, and moreover, your attitude is completely wrong.

I will however, out of good conscience, talk about the glaring problems in your methods for the sake of younger technicians on this board.

1) Just because you "feel" something is safe, in no way makes it true and is not a rational basis to establish safety. i.e. "I feel the scaffold is safer with the locks off".

2)A history without accidents is not a basis on which to conclude safe procedures. Of course what you're doing seems safe until you fall. The whole point of working safely is to avoid ever having an accident.

3) For someone who believes a couple of fixture safety cables and a leather belt come anywhere close to being a safe harness, I wouldn't be so quick to throw out labels of inexperience.

4)You shouldn't have to worry about hurting ANYONE! I figure you're speaking relatively, but it's hard to pick up on that stuff on the internet.

5)This isn't about individual capabilities and limits. Everyone makes mistakes and the point of safety procedures and equipment is to protect people from their own physical and mental mistakes and incapabilites. It goes without saying that you don't want to make a mistake and fall and even that you strive not to, but there are endless factors that you have no control over. Safety rules and equipment should apply to everyone, regardless of experience. It's incumbent upon the teacher to instill the idea of universal safety precautions (PRE meaning before). Experience does not make you less fallible.

I think this issue is being hacked to death. Mostly by me and my endless use of italics. At this point, the safety harness issue seems the most legitimate and discussable and unless someone has a contrary view on the importance and neccesity of safety in this industry, we ought to stick to discussing that. I expect this sort of thing to go without saying, but unfortunately this sort of thing is far too prevelant.

 

[JSFox]

5. When the teacher first came to the school and for the first few months, he pushed a safety first position. He finally gave up when he realized that he was getting nowhere. "Experienced" tech's like me as slightly less likely to have an accident in a dangerous situation for 2 reasons.
1. The are less nervous because they are used to the risk level
2. They know what they are doing so they will be in a risky position for a shorter time.

I have to agree with J on this one. Both you and your instructor raise serious concerns about the theatre program at Niagra University. You my friend are not experienced. You are seriously immature and need to grow up before you hurt yourself or someone else. Fortunately for future students at Niagra the administration can read what you've posted and take appropriate action.

Some things all of us need to keep in mind. There is NO production worth someone's life or limb. "By golly I got that light fixed, it sure was worth spending the rest of my life as a quadraplegic to see that show go on." is nothing to be proud of. In more than a few incidents over the years the person who's been hurt was not the one taking the risk, but someone else either standing on the deck, or trying to help the stupid risk taker. To extend that one measure further, it's inconsiderate to your friends and family to take stupid risks. You may be dead, in heaven (or hell?), or comatose. Your friends and family then are the ones who suffer in loosing you.

How many people have been hurt taking stupid risks because they saw others doing it and didn't want to feel looked down upon because they wouldn't? Peer pressure is an amazingly strong force, particularly in younger folks like our friend here.

Theatre and the entertainment industry has enough risk when we follow ALL of the rules. When someone is hurt or killed doing something stupid we all bear responsibility for that in the example that we set.

Fortunately the vast majority on here know all of this. If I am out of line I'll stand corrected.

Off my soapbox now...

 

[leistico]

This brings up another possible question...

Sometimes, at a community theatre I work with, I'll be the only one there in the building whenever I'm needing to adjust lights or hang or whathaveyou. We don't have a "genie" per se, but a "hi-jacker"--a sort of Genie-ish old decrepit thing that you position, hinge the cage upward (it folds down to be able to be rolled through a doorway), position the outriggers, hand-crank it to height, then climb up steps to the ladder section, up the ladder and into the cage. Totally manual.

Question is--when working on a high-lift of this sort (hi-jacker, genie) would you feel safe working on your own, or do you usually have someone else there as a "spotter", in case something happens?

 

[jbeutt]

At the risk of becoming the guru of noninformational safety rants, I think the obvious answer is COME ON!!!.

I really think I'm a nice person, but seriously, this is a fairly self explanitory question. Especially given the qualifier "old decrepit". I mean, that's what I call my grandma and I know for a fact she can't lift sh*t.

You engage in an activity that presents a considerable risk of injury in the event of accident or unforseen occurance. Why in the world would you not want someone there to help in the case that something goes awry? Again, all's well until you fall. Last time I'll say this (although I haven't yet said it explicitally, but have in so many words): Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

Personally, I try to have a "spotter" on hand as often as possible. Often, this person is not specifically assigned to watch me, but I count anyone within shouting distance as a spotter. I certainly won't do dangerous climbs or lifts if I'm alone in a facility.

Ask for help. Believe me, you quickly tune out the cruel sting of your coworkers shouting: "Baaaaby! Baaaaby!"

 

[jonhirsh]

A freind of mine working alone in a theatre, his lift ran out of battery at its top height it was an scissor lift. He was stuck up there for 13 hours till some one found him the next day.

JH

 

[Chris15]

I agree with jbeutt here. There is absolutely no reason why anyone should be working at heights alone. I mean, it doesn't really bother me who else is there, so long as if soemthing went wrong, there was someone to call an ambulance. And I think it would be safe to say that should go for other things where you stand an elevated risk, carpentry, almost anything in a theatre, etc. If for some extraordinary reason you MUST do something like that alone, then for goodness sake ring someone and let them know, and then ring them after you have finished. So that if you don't ring back they can seek help on your behalf. I believe that most universities etc. have a policy whereby any person working back late has to inform security or sign a book at reception that security can check or something along those lines.

As was said, no show is worth your life...

I strongly agree that what I have read in some of these posts is downright scary. Not one of us can afford to be lax with safety, I know that down here entertainment is second only to mining in risk as classified by Workcover (our OHSA). The danger is real. Don't think it couldn't happen to you.

Get Serious, it's not worth your life...

 

[avkid]

A freind of mine working alone in a theatre, his lift ran out of battery at its top height it was an scissor lift. He was stuck up there for 13 hours till some one found him the next day.
JH

That's one good argument for an electric lift!

 

[jonhirsh]

It was electric what do you mean?
And basicaly if some one was there they could pull the emergancy lowering valve on the bottom.
JH

 

[Footer]

Well now that we are on the subject of lifts, how do you guys feel about ladders? Most theatres have an A-Frame laying around, and usually that A-Frame is mounted on a caster cart of some sort. For those of you who have never road an A Frame it is an experience to say the least. Do you guys feel that all theatres should take their A-Frames out on the dock and burn them? There are many shows that I have worked on that we have to pull out the A Frame to get to a position that can not be reached by a genie due to haveing a set in the way and not haveing enough/any focus tracks (thats a whole other can of worms).

 

[Chris15]

I think A frames serve a purpose, but I would have thought that by its very nature, a ladder on wheels is a problem. And it should go without saying that if a ladder is a bit worse for wear and thus not completely safe, I think a match or other means of disposal to be appropriate. But make sure that the ladder is unusable before disposing of it. You don't want someone else using your unsafe ladder because they salvaged it...

 

[jbeutt]

A pox on ladders!

You obviously haven't worked enough 250 seat theatres with 20'-25' grids and the idea of getting a genie absolutely hilarious. Of course ladders serve a purpose, are you kidding!? It bothers me to think of an entire generation of younger technical professionals (I should have business cards with that title) who haven't had that gut fear atop a wooden ladder, swaying back and forth, hanging a 360. But alas. Now it's just shove in the outriggers and hit a button. No appreciation at all for what others had to go through before all the fancy contraptions.

A-frames are dandy and personally a lot more fun than genie lifts. But I haaaate the plexi/aluminum kind. way too heavy. I like wooden A-frames with extensions. They're a dying breed though; dead actually. And yeah, a lot of them are totally dangerous.

How exactly are the wheels a problem? Just as long as you don't get pushed on them, you're fine. Well, I suppose if you're on a rake. But hopefully it becomes an issue before you've started climbing it.

-Jack

 

[Footer]

A pox on ladders!
You obviously haven't worked enough 250 seat theatres with 20'-25' grids and the idea of getting a genie absolutely hilarious. Of course ladders serve a purpose, are you kidding!? It bothers me to think of an entire generation of younger technical professionals (I should have business cards with that title) who haven't had that gut fear atop a wooden ladder, swaying back and forth, hanging a 360. But alas. Now it's just shove in the outriggers and hit a button. No appreciation at all for what others had to go through before all the fancy contraptions.
A-frames are dandy and personally a lot more fun than genie lifts. But I haaaate the plexi/aluminum kind. way too heavy. I like wooden A-frames with extensions. They're a dying breed though; dead actually. And yeah, a lot of them are totally dangerous.
How exactly are the wheels a problem? Just as long as you don't get pushed on them, you're fine. Well, I suppose if you're on a rake. But hopefully it becomes an issue before you've started climbing it.
-Jack

I grew up on A-Frames, and for most focuses I prefer them because you dont have to deal with shooting through the bucket. Personaly though, I am not crazy about going up on the extention and wraping my legs around it, but it can be a bit of a thrill. I have rode some rather loose ones and thats not the most fun, and I will agree that the fiberglass ones are nice when they are up, but not so much to get them up. The nice thing about the caster carts is that you don't have to worry about stretching the ladder out by draggin it accross the deck.

 

[Chris15]

The only reason I thought ladders on wheels to be potentially problematic is that enough force would get them moving, which could be unexpected if you're at the top... But I guess so long as you know what you are doing, they would be reasonably safe.

 

[jbeutt]

It's never been a problem for me.
It's probably a combination of the fact that there's a good deal of downward force and that the casters really aren't that great. Also, if you were to try to get it moving from up top, you'd really just be torquing the ladder and no real force would apply. That isn't to say that someone else couldn't get you going pretty easily.

 

[soundlight]

Slightly safer than the A-frame, the "cherry picker." The welded-metal-tube rectangle at the bottom, with wheels, and the 20-foot ladder that flips up. It has legs that flip out from the sides, but they are rather impractical when you're working between seats and the leg lands in a seat...

I used one of those suckers to focus 30-year-old, shutters-rusted-together, focus-knob-is-shot century 10x12's at my high school. My drama teacher would always stare up at me the whole time looking very, very, very scared...probably more scared than me. The best part about this thing is the "bucket" in which you stand. 1/4" thick metal plate that is somehow attached to the ladder bit, and you have to kinda push yourself up under the restraining bars to even get in the bucket. It's a true work of art in itself.

 

[JSFox]

I wish the 2 theatre's I'm currently working in had A's. For whatever reason I feel safer on top of an A (in good condition) with one leg wrapped over the top rung than on a genie. One that I used had a one-step push down thing to get it up on its wheels or down on it's feet. Me up top, someone on the bottom, lots of focusing gett'n done.

Wonder what the osha boys would think about pushing a man'd A vs a man'd genie?

 

[Chris15]

Slightly safer than the A-frame, the "cherry picker." The welded-metal-tube rectangle at the bottom, with wheels, and the 20-foot ladder that flips up. It has legs that flip out from the sides, but they are rather impractical when you're working between seats and the leg lands in a seat...
I used one of those suckers to focus 30-year-old, shutters-rusted-together, focus-knob-is-shot century 10x12's at my high school. My drama teacher would always stare up at me the whole time looking very, very, very scared...probably more scared than me. The best part about this thing is the "bucket" in which you stand. 1/4" thick metal plate that is somehow attached to the ladder bit, and you have to kinda push yourself up under the restraining bars to even get in the bucket. It's a true work of art in itself.

One of the other schools near us has one of them. Their's has an extension ladder, as in the bucket is at teh top of an extendable ladder. Does yours?