How should I record this?

[MisterTim]

I'm recording piano and organ playing together. Baby grand piano, standard(ish?) hammond organ. I won't know any specifics on the organ until I get there, so this will have to be relatively generic.

My arsenal:
4x Shure Beta58A
2x Shure SM58
4x Shure SM57
4x Crown PCC-160
2x Rode NT-5
2x Peavey PVM-480
1x Shure Beta52
1x AT805

I'll be recording with a Presonus Firestudio Project.

So, my plan was to use a PCC-160 in the lid of the piano, because I know I can get a decent sound with very little work. However, I do not like using the PCC-160s in stereo on a piano, so I figured if I wanted to do stereo, I'd be better off using 2 of the small-diaphragm condensers. Regardless, the piano is easy enough.

1. How do I mic the organ? I won't know ahead of time what specific type of organ it is...and to be honest I don't even know where a hammond organ's sound comes from. Stereo or mono?

2. Stereo or mono mic the piano?

3. Where should the pans be?

I don't think I've ever heard a recording of just piano and organ, so I'm kind of approaching this blind, and would appreciate any input you guys have.

 

[howlingwolf487]

I suggest another veritable encyclopedia of information... PSW. Hopefully that helps some.

 

[MisterTim]

I suggest another veritable encyclopedia of information... PSW. Hopefully that helps some.

That does help, thanks. Guess I'll have to go look up pictures of organs and 'leslies' and find out what this foreign language is that they speak =]

 

[bishopthomas]

I would also check out Gearslutz.com for a huge database of recording folks. If it's a Hammond organ chances are the sound will be coming out of a rotating speaker Leslie cabinet. You'll want several mics on this, at least two. I like to have a pair on top (highs) to give a stereo image, then a single mic on bottom for the lows. As far as piano, a single PCC160 in the lid plus a pair of mics outside the piano would be decent. Is this a live performance or a session tracking? If the previous then you'll have to live with the lid at whatever position works best for the player/live SR (if applicable). If it's a session then you should have some leeway to try different things. Piano at full stick (or lid removed) usually gives a good sound if you're putting two mics outside the piano. Also, if it's a session then get a good blend between the two instruments and put a pair of mics in the room. If it's a good sound, a good room, and decent mics then this could be all you need. Bring in the spots as needed to get fullness.

So, with your mic list I would do this:

1. Leslie High Left - SM57
2. Leslie High Right - SM57
3. Leslie Low - Beta 52
4. Piano Left - SM57 (if using the room mics, else NT5)
5. Piano Right - SM57 (if using the room mics, else NT5)
6. Piano PZM - PCC160
7. Room Left - NT5
8. Room Right - NT5

 

[bishopthomas]

Here's a picture of a Leslie cabinet. The top speakers spin at a variable rate (controlled on the organ).

 

[MisterTim]

Is this a live performance or a session tracking? If it's a good sound, a good room, and decent mics then this could be all you need.

Session tracking, but it's two older ladies in a house, not professionals in a recording studio. Considering it's in a house, the room is probably a crapshoot. Even if the room sounded good, there's going to be traffic noise, other people, etc. so I think I'm going to err away from room mics.

1. Leslie High Left - SM57
2. Leslie High Right - SM57
3. Leslie Low - Beta 52
4. Piano Left - SM57 (if using the room mics, else NT5)
5. Piano Right - SM57 (if using the room mics, else NT5)
6. Piano PZM - PCC160
7. Room Left - NT5
8. Room Right - NT5

Hmm, I never thought to do both stereo mics and boundary mic together on a piano. That would explain how to get the sound I've been looking for... Awesome, thanks.

So, I understand the leslie cabinet and all now from the reading i've been doing...what if it's not a leslie?[-] is there a 'normal' organ and a 'leslie' organ?[/-] that's a stupid question. So basically I need to get at the back of the organ, which is why this all seems so foreign to me, because every organ i've played, the sound just seems to emanate from deep within its bowels.

 

[bishopthomas]

Some organs have the speakers built in. In this case just put a mic or two on it and you're good to go.

 

[howlingwolf487]

I have heard that the organs can be VERY temperamental when it comes to the AC power they get fed - if it's not steady, the pitches will be sharp/flat.

 

[Rhett]

I agree with Bishop Thomas. If you're wanting a warm sound, use those SM 57's. With two on the piano, listen for phase issues, or use an X pattern, or the NT5 like he suggested. NT5 is probably easiest. Are you multitracking or tracking to stereo?

Rhett

 

[MisterTim]

I agree with Bishop Thomas. If you're wanting a warm sound, use those SM 57's. With two on the piano, listen for phase issues, or use an X pattern, or the NT5 like he suggested. NT5 is probably easiest. Are you multitracking or tracking to stereo?

Rhett

Assuming everything is working properly, I'll be multitracking.

It looks like I'll be using 2x SM57 on the organ (maybe with the beta52, depending on the organ) and the NT5s on the piano. I would like to put the PCC-160 on the piano too, but this lady is apparently VERY particular about her immaculate white baby grand, so I'm not sure she'll let me tape a PCC to the inside of the lid. (even though gafftape is residue free...any other ideas?

 

[bishopthomas]

Taping to the lid is the best way, but there are other options as well. The easiest is to put gaff across the frame, making a "nest" for the microphones. Another thing you can try (I've never had to do it myself but should work better than the previous method as PZM's work when mounted on a flat, reflective surface) is to mount a piece of plexiglass to a mic stand, tape the PCC160 to the plexi, then put that whole contraption inside the piano. You'll get most of the benefit of the lid without the trouble of convincing a musician who would buy a white piano that gaff tape is used every day for exactly this.

 

[TimmyP1955]

2x NT5 in the piano (hi/low)

2x PVM-480 under the piano (hi/low) (Or PCC160 if they don't pick up too much pedal noise).

2x PCC-160 Leslie top (if there is one) (or PVM if you didn't use them under the piano).

1x PCC-160 Leslie bottom (or organ speaker).

 

[MisterTim]

This recording is happening this Wednesday. I found out today that the organ does not have an open back or separate leslie speaker, a la:

Where should I put the mics? I'm assuming the sound is coming out of the mesh area under the keyboard.

 

[gizm770o]

The piano is the simple part, but I still have to say go with your NT5s. Best resilt i've gotten is with a stereo bar in an XY pattern. Sounds brilliant.

 

[MisterTim]

I forgot I had started this thread, lol.

The recording went quite well. The organ was actually very easy to mic; after I used my flashlight to peer through the mesh, I saw that it had 5 speakers: 2 L, 2 R, and 1 sub. Easy enough to slap the 57s and the Beta 52 on it. The owner of the piano practically had a heart attack when I mentioned taping a PC-160 to her piano, so needless to say, that didn't happen. I used just the NT5s spaced. Still sounds good anyway, but I miss the presence of a PCC on the lid.

As always, thanks for all your help.

 

[2mojo2]

Tim:

What results?