Is Local 829 worth it?

[Esoteric]

This is nothing personal, but what I hear from a lot of union people is a lack of personal responsibility. Does the free market protect your pension and health plan? It sure does, by giving you the ability to protect yourself. Don't like your pension plan? Get a new one. Don't like your health plan? Switch.

No offense to anyone, but there is no such thing as objective worth. Something is only worth what someone will pay for it. In the case of a tv show, without the star the show doesn't exist. So they get a big paycheck. Grips and hands are a dime a dozen. Even good ones, and so are paid accordingly.

As far as the union shutting down a show, I could see that. Plus you have to look at the big picture. They are like a virus. Once they get in and get a foothold it is that much harder to get them out, and they begin to spread and consume.

Down here OSHA loves to investigate. Call them with a complaint and they will be there in a flash. But again it is up to the worker to be responsible for their own safety.

Once again no offense, the IA film guys on this board seem like great guys and I would totally buy you guys a round of beers to hear your stories. But I stand by my assertions of unions as a whole. And this is from a guy who was a union hand for 8 years and who's brother is a Teamster for life (we don't talk about unions at family gatherings).

 

[shiben]

This is nothing personal, but what I hear from a lot of union people is a lack of personal responsibility. Does the free market protect your pension and health plan? It sure does, by giving you the ability to protect yourself. Don't like your pension plan? Get a new one. Don't like your health plan? Switch.

No offense to anyone, but there is no such thing as objective worth. Something is only worth what someone will pay for it. In the case of a tv show, without the star the show doesn't exist. So they get a big paycheck. Grips and hands are a dime a dozen. Even good ones, and so are paid accordingly.

As far as the union shutting down a show, I could see that. Plus you have to look at the big picture. They are like a virus. Once they get in and get a foothold it is that much harder to get them out, and they begin to spread and consume.

Down here OSHA loves to investigate. Call them with a complaint and they will be there in a flash. But again it is up to the worker to be responsible for their own safety.

Once again no offense, the IA film guys on this board seem like great guys and I would totally buy you guys a round of beers to hear your stories. But I stand by my assertions of unions as a whole. And this is from a guy who was a union hand for 8 years and who's brother is a Teamster for life (we don't talk about unions at family gatherings).

Dude, the free market does not protect you for anything. Free markets got pension plans sold by companies as assets. Free markets are cutting healthcare and wages, making you have to go buy it yourself on a shrunken paycheck. Free markets are great for lots of things, but not a single one of those is protecting the worker. And you always mention that workers need to protect themselves, thats kind of why you join a union: to protect yourself. That way you dont have a dozen people trying to decide whats a safety violation, there are just straight rules for that. Everyone negotiates as one for contracts, so you dont get hosed by the contract. Everyone gets pensions taken care of and that helps protect your pension and others, same for welfare and if you get hurt. The free market and federal government do absolutely nothing to protect you. The feds do what they have to do to keep their jobs, then go right back to looking the other way. The free market is biased towards viewing labor as expendable and super cheap. Unfortunately, that means the vast majority are screwed in a free market system. Unions help to balance it out a little bit.

 

[Esoteric]

I can't agree Shiben. The free market is the ultimate protection. You don't like your working conditions? Work somewhere else. You don't like the product you are getting? Go buy somewhere else. In a strict labor union situation you have no choice. Don't like the product you get from the union? Too bad, it is the only product available, you will take what you get and like it. Don't like your working situation, or think you could earn more on your own? Too bad, you have to work under the current union contract (one reason I left the local, I could make more as a freelance electrician/rigger than I could being sent out as a box pusher by the local). Want to keep working and feeding your family because you don't agree with the ridiculous strike? Too bad, you have to walk and watch your family starve because the Union management wants an extra 2% on the contract to line their pockets with.

What a lot of people don't see if that at some point in the hierarchy, the Union becomes management. They have their own interests in mind as well, not just that of the labor.

Give me a free market where I am in charge of my own destiny any day of the week.

Unions aren't necessarily the problem though. Like every other Production and Labor house they are only looking out for their employees. Closed shops are the problem (although keep in mind power is always with labor).

Production and labor houses serve the same function as unions for their employees, and without the ridiculous rules and slavish adherence to them. All the production companies I hire from serve the same purpose and their workers have the same benefits as unions. What is the difference?

Closed shops and slavish adherence to tradition.

I am not anti-union. I am anti closed shop.

Unions can continue to exist and that is fine, but make every state a right to work state and let unions compete in an open and free market. If anything it would make the unions better. The free market makes everyone who participates in it better.

We actually have Teamsters and UAW here in Texas (an odd sight to be sure), but all their power derives from their ability to call strikes in other states where closed shops are legal.

 

[mstaylor]

I'm kind of the middle ground guy in this. I overlist with 22, I generally work nonunion. I see advantages and disadvantages in both systems. I do want to bring up one instance that I disagreed with when it was said and runs counter to everything union guys believe in.
After the Indiana disaster last year one of the hands said they didn't feel good about going up but if they didn't they wouldn't get anymore work. My stance is if you feel something is dangerous, even life threatening, don't do it. I don't care if it hampers the show refuse to do it. Then the union backed away from their training records. That disappointed me, they pride themselves on the quality of their training then ran away from it when it hits the fan.

 

[Footer]

I can't agree Shiben. The free market is the ultimate protection. You don't like your working conditions? Work somewhere else. You don't like the product you are getting? Go buy somewhere else. In a strict labor union situation you have no choice. Don't like the product you get from the union? Too bad, it is the only product available, you will take what you get and like it. Don't like your working situation, or think you could earn more on your own? Too bad, you have to work under the current union contract (one reason I left the local, I could make more as a freelance electrician/rigger than I could being sent out as a box pusher by the local). Want to keep working and feeding your family because you don't agree with the ridiculous strike? Too bad, you have to walk and watch your family starve because the Union management wants an extra 2% on the contract to line their pockets with.

What a lot of people don't see if that at some point in the hierarchy, the Union becomes management. They have their own interests in mind as well, not just that of the labor.

Give me a free market where I am in charge of my own destiny any day of the week.

Unions aren't necessarily the problem though. Like every other Production and Labor house they are only looking out for their employees. Closed shops are the problem (although keep in mind power is always with labor).

Production and labor houses serve the same function as unions for their employees, and without the ridiculous rules and slavish adherence to them. All the production companies I hire from serve the same purpose and their workers have the same benefits as unions. What is the difference?

Closed shops and slavish adherence to tradition.

I am not anti-union. I am anti closed shop.

Unions can continue to exist and that is fine, but make every state a right to work state and let unions compete in an open and free market. If anything it would make the unions better. The free market makes everyone who participates in it better.

We actually have Teamsters and UAW here in Texas (an odd sight to be sure), but all their power derives from their ability to call strikes in other states where closed shops are legal.

This is what the free market has done:

Crew One Productions is the largest technical staffing agency for concerts and corporate events in the southeast. Crew One contracts with workers for all areas of live entertainment including audio, staging, lighting, carpentry, wardrobe, forklift operators, and rigging. Crew One has locations in Nashville, Atlanta, Memphis and Chattanooga. Workers are retained on a free-lance basis, are required to have reliable transportation, an independent business, and may be asked to perform heavy lifting.

In other words, you show up, you get at 1099, you leave. You get hurt, not our problem. We caused you to get hurt? Not our problem.

Because the market sucks in general, people will do this work. Odds are they don't know what they are getting themselves into... they just want to feed their family. So, you take a chance... a scafolding falls on you... your out, your familys out, its all over.

 

[Scarrgo]

My old Mentor and a couple of other LDs I work with from time to time were asking me if I would like to go through the peer review process for USA (they are all members of USA). But I would do at the most 3 gigs a year that I need USA membership for. Would it be worth it to those of you in USA?

If the 3 or so gigs are worth the money and the feather in your cap, than by all means do it, if not, say no thanks. You can think about it again the next year the ask.

I can be a bit long winded, so you have been warned, this is my personal feelings ONLY, and I can change as I see fit. If you dont like them, thats fine by me. You have your right.

On a side note, I have done several tours in my short time on this earth, I have worked with High School kids, homeless people brought in off the street, men in orange jump suits(who gave that guy a power saw?), boot camp kids, college kids, cadets, Local 1 to Local # whatever.

They all have really good folks, and really bad folks. The one thing I have learned along the way is, we all have to get along, we dont have to like each other, we will be leaving in a couple of hours anyway. There are places I would really like to stay at and others I just cant get away from fast enough.

This forum has the ability to help our young up and comers and our slightly older friends learn how to make their show the best it can possible be.

We need to be careful on how we as a group come across when we have a disagreement on things like is the union a good idea to join.

We can not and should not tell anyone that they have to join or not. We dont walk in their shoes or maybe even live in that city, a civil conversation is a good thing, listing pros a cons, as that is what how every decision should be done. I have made my share of very bad decisions.

I have my position on unions, but thats my position, if you really want to know, PM me or start a new thread. I will be glad to talk about it. Untill than, I have left my advise to the OP above and good luck.

Have a great day.
Sean...

 

[Esoteric]

This is what the free market has done:



In other words, you show up, you get at 1099, you leave. You get hurt, not our problem. We caused you to get hurt? Not our problem.

Because the market sucks in general, people will do this work. Odds are they don't know what they are getting themselves into... they just want to feed their family. So, you take a chance... a scafolding falls on you... your out, your familys out, its all over.

A. That is not quite true. Every employer is required to carry workmans comp, even if you use 1099 employees. You get hurt on the job you get workmans comp. Period.

B. Getting set up as a business is free, and getting your own workmans comp is cheaper than union dues for a year. In fact, in Texas you can get life, liability, workmans comp, and health insurance cheaper than union dues for a a year.

C. If you take a job and don't know what it entails that is on you. Again, personal responsibility.

So your post only proves my point. The free market has produced the better solution.

And, if you don't like the system Crew One has set up, you can work for another company.

However, what choice do I have if I want to work in a closed shop but not be a union member? That is another thing unions destroy, the right to choose.

The free market is always the best solution. If unions can compete in the free market, so be it. If not they deserve to go under.

 

[EBB]

Re: Joining USA 829

I would imagine being in a right to work state would make that sort of thing all the worse.

Actually I have to disagree. I am not saying that you aren't right. But there are cases like Local 115- which I am out of, where crews are happy to come through. Even though it's a right-to-work state, we have a great union of skilled and unskilled people. But it's a well balanced union. Even when we have large shows that come through town- such as Wicked at the moment. We still have very good people working arena shows and other theatre shows at the same time that are all skilled and can handle the normal tours that come through.

But of course you are right. I have heard of places that have that issue. But I never count right to work states as having more issues than places that have 3 different unions working the same show and houses that can only let union hands touch the tours gear.

edit- I want to point out Local 115 is the IATSE local out of Jacksonville. But we have Northern Florida since Tallahasee doesn't have it's own local.

 

[meatpopsicle]

A. That is not quite true. Every employer is required to carry workmans comp, even if you use 1099 employees. You get hurt on the job you get workmans comp. Period.

B. Getting set up as a business is free, and getting your own workmans comp is cheaper than union dues for a year. In fact, in Texas you can get life, liability, workmans comp, and health insurance cheaper than union dues for a a year.

C. If you take a job and don't know what it entails that is on you. Again, personal responsibility.

So your post only proves my point. The free market has produced the better solution.

And, if you don't like the system Crew One has set up, you can work for another company.

However, what choice do I have if I want to work in a closed shop but not be a union member? That is another thing unions destroy, the right to choose.

The free market is always the best solution. If unions can compete in the free market, so be it. If not they deserve to go under.

So your postition is that workman's comp takes the place of health insurance? Really?

Health insurance for my family would be in excess of 1500.00 per year, no dental, no perscription. That's 6 times what my dues are.

Even a DBA, no incorporation, is at least 150.00 (more than half my union dues) and carrying my own comp and liability would be in excess of 2000.00 per year.

If being a hand is what I do and the company that has the whole town is a 1099 shop that has no benefits and only workman's comp, where's the choice there? Your view of personal responsibility says that I have to work there or go somewhere else. And that I have to have my own insurance for my family and liability for the job. Pretty Anne Randian bro.

Union means we all band together to make things better for each of us. If that isn't happening down in your neck of the woods I'm sorry. But I think you have a pretty narrow view of the union, and the state of the entertainment business in general, to be making sweeping statements like these.

 

[DuckJordan]

So your postition is that workman's comp takes the place of health insurance? Really?

Health insurance for my family would be in excess of 1500.00 per year, no dental, no perscription. That's 6 times what my dues are.

Even a DBA, no incorporation, is at least 150.00 (more than half my union dues) and carrying my own comp and liability would be in excess of 2000.00 per year.

If being a hand is what I do and the company that has the whole town is a 1099 shop that has no benefits and only workman's comp, where's the choice there? Your view of personal responsibility says that I have to work there or go somewhere else. And that I have to have my own insurance for my family and liability for the job. Pretty Anne Randian bro.

Union means we all band together to make things better for each of us. If that isn't happening down in your neck of the woods I'm sorry. But I think you have a pretty narrow view of the union, and the state of the entertainment business in general, to be making sweeping statements like these.

How are you paying that little in dues? Don't you get charged per "paycheck" a certain percentage that the union takes out? I'm sorry your situation is by far not the norm. Union dues per year here are roughly $350 per year, and 5% on top of taxes take out of each paycheck you receive. Not to mention they require us to pay in to get life insurance, workman's comp, and other such benefits. sorry the union here would take more than half of my yearly salary.

 

[meatpopsicle]

How are you paying that little in dues? Don't you get charged per "paycheck" a certain percentage that the union takes out? I'm sorry your situation is by far not the norm. Union dues per year here are roughly $350 per year, and 5% on top of taxes take out of each paycheck you receive. Not to mention they require us to pay in to get life insurance, workman's comp, and other such benefits. sorry the union here would take more than half of my yearly salary.

Our dues are 245.00 and we pay 2 1/2 % of our check to the union. We don't have a contribution to our health plan. We have a huge market and a lot of members.

For arguments sake lets say that your yearly salary is 30,000. You would have too pay in 15,000 a year? How do you explain that?

 

[shiben]

Our dues are 245.00 and we pay 2 1/2 % of our check to the union. We don't have a contribution to our health plan. We have a huge market and a lot of members.

For arguments sake lets say that your yearly salary is 30,000. You would have too pay in 15,000 a year? How do you explain that?

Being in some place like North Dakota or Wyoming where IA has like 3 members?

 

[DuckJordan]

Pretty much 20 active members. 10th of which are either not paying in due to them "running" it or not working enough to afford to pay in.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[Esoteric]

Yeah out of $40k that I earned my last year in the union I ended up paying more than $8k.

 

[SteveB]

Esoteric, you need to check your facts.

1) You stated:

"A. That is not quite true. Every employer is required to carry workmans comp, even if you use 1099 employees. You get hurt on the job you get workmans comp. Period."

Here's a quote from the Texas Dept. of Insurance website: Workers' Compensation Resources for Employers

"Workers’ compensation is a state-regulated insurance program that provides covered employees with income and medical benefits if they sustain a work-related injury or illness. Texas private employers can choose whether or not to provide workers’ compensation insurance coverage for their employees. In most cases, your employer is required to notify you whether or not
they provide coverage."

Further reading elsewhere indicates that while many companies purchase their own private insurance, mostly to limit liability and usually as a requirement by their general liability insurance companies, it is not out of the goodness of their hearts as it were, and the fact remains that Texas does not require WC and that leaves the employees vulnerable.

2) 1099 "Employees" are not employees, They are contractors and possibly that little distinction escapes you and many employers who choose to hire people as independent contractors to escape their obligations under federal law, in terms of when someone working for you is an employee.

Beyond pointing out those simple little errors in your argument, I'm finished with this discussion. I think the lesson learned is that closed minds tend to stay closed.

 

[Esoteric]

You are correct Steve. You are not required by law to have workers comp. My liability company requires that I have it. But you are totally right that state law does not require it. That being said, all the companies I work with carry it (because of insurance requirements). I actually never bothered to check why I had to have it. I just knew I did.

When did I ever say anyone did anything out of the kindness of their hearts?

No one (besides charities) do anything from the kindness of their hearts. That is why the free market works. It is based on self interest. That is why it works.

I know very well the difference between a contractor and an employee (probably better than 99% of the people on this board). There are many, many intricacies that most people don't realize. But, for ease of discussion I was using the coloquial meaning of employee.

You and I disagree on one more thing. I believe that there can be intelligent, open minded, well meaning people on both sides of this issue. I don't have to agree with them (I believe they are dead wrong), but honest, civil conversation doesn't have to end with conversion to one side or the other to be fruitful. Sometimes the conversation in itself can be fruit enough. Even though you disagree with me, I still consider you (and most of the pro union guys on this board) intelligent, honest, hard working, open minded, and well meaning people and I am better off for having known you.

 

[xander]

A. Every employer is required to carry workmans comp, even if you use 1099 employees. You get hurt on the job you get workmans comp. Period.

I gave my opinion on the OP 6 months ago when this thread started, and I have kept my opinions on unions to myself because just reading this thread makes me so angry I have to walk away sometimes. I just felt the need to point out that the statement above is just blatantly, 100% false.

-Tim

 

[Esoteric]

I gave my opinion on the OP 6 months ago when this thread started, and I have kept my opinions on unions to myself because just reading this thread makes me so angry I have to walk away sometimes. I just felt the need to point out that the statement above is just blatantly, 100% false.

-Tim

You are absolutely correct.

 

[DavidNorth]

There is more thing to keep in mind that I have yet to see discussed. The federal government has continued to tighten the description of contractor to the degree that what used to be a contractor years ago would now be called an employee. Companies have found that by using contractors, and not employees, saves a lot of money.

The basis for this is loss of payroll tax and benefit issues such as Social Security, health care and unemployment insurance.

The number of investigations continues to rise. If you have people working for you as contractors and they are doing employee level work, be aware of getting caught and fined.

Seems to me that for specific individuals being hired on contract, the government will frown upon a lot of yearly 1099 work from a specific company but could probably support a labor company of some sort.

David

 

[Esoteric]

There is more thing to keep in mind that I have yet to see discussed. The federal government has continued to tighten the description of contractor to the degree that what used to be a contractor years ago would now be called an employee. Companies have found that by using contractors, and not employees, saves a lot of money.

The basis for this is loss of payroll tax and benefit issues such as Social Security, health care and unemployment insurance.

The number of investigations continues to rise. If you have people working for you as contractors and they are doing employee level work, be aware of getting caught and fined.

Seems to me that for specific individuals being hired on contract, the government will frown upon a lot of yearly 1099 work from a specific company but could probably support a labor company of some sort.

David

You are absolutely right. My accountant and lawyer gave me 5 questions to ask to make sure that my contract labor is actually contract labor.