Is Local 829 worth it?

[jstroming]

Esoteric-

I agree with 90% of what you say. What you have to realize is that every single union stagehand sees your existence as a threat to their livelihood. Because of that, they have developed a predatory approach to dealing with "scabs" like you.

They're going to always dislike you (like they do everyone who goes into non-union houses) and try to blacklist you like this fine gentlemen recommends:

As stated by VAN:
"I feel your opinions and positions are ignorant, uninformed, and dangerous. I pray to God someone posts your opinions at the local in Dallas."

Van, your threats are completely uncalled for, and unfortunately prove many of the points people who disagree with you make.

Why are none of the "Senior Members" on this site condemning this language???

 

[Gern]

The laws on this are VERY complicated, and full of exceptions and such. But yes, you can work 13 hours a day (the maximum work day length unless you are exempted) every day (Monday - Friday) and there is no regulation on when your lunch break falls.

Perhaps the locals there in CA and in the film industry out there are different. But in MY EXPERIENCE with locals in Texas and Tennessee there is certainly a "stick it to the man" attitude. And as "the man" it bothers me when labor doesn't want to work with me. So I quit hiring union guys.

Sadly, I think you could find this behavior all most any where, and I didn't mean to say it doesn't happen in LA, yes, I have seen it here in LA. My thoughts are 1)There are 2 types of people regarding this. Some people don't try to 'stick it to the man', for lack of better terms, they don't suffer from a feeling of entitlement, etc., and others do. Granted there is an argument that these people are few & far between...
2) Some people can 'keep it together', 'keep it together', 'keep it together', until they feel taken advantage of, then they will 'stick it to the man'.
I am sorry to hear of your problem workers. I'm not doubting your experiences at all.
I sir, have had absolutely the opposite experience with my workers when I was in Tennessee as the best boy using all local electrics & grips. I am very proud of them, they truly made my life as easy as possible, did the job flawlessly, and had the kind of personalities that made me want to hang out with them. The only rough parts were the high humidity, and me breaking my ribs on a mt bike fall on my day off.

I've had a good times while visiting Texas, but never worked there.

 

[shiben]

You can't control everything about a call no matter how hard you try. Perhaps you start a 3 point bridle with 45 minutes to spare, but you encounter problems and need another 10 minutes to finish. But the steward says "nope, sorry" and so you waste all the time of guys getting down, taking their break, going back up, etc. That is ridiculous. But I have had it happen.

I believe in the person with the overall view and plan of what is going on calling breaks and lunches.

If you don't get your mandated break, report the employer to OSHA just like every other worker in the nation has to.

I also had a steward tell me if I called the break at 1:00 (which I wanted to do) then instead of doing 3 hours of work when we got back, the clock would restart and there would be another break 2 hours from that point. Completely insane.

Actually that last tidbit makes sense, if they are trying to call a break ever 2 hours. I understand you are frustrated with the union, but at some point, there needs to be some sort of thing there to protect workers. Trusting the Feds to regulate things is a joke. Mine workers are presumably unionized, yet there is still horrific accidental death in mines every year. Federal regulation has not done jack for them. The history of labor has shown that employers will, in the absence of multiple levels of regulation, not care what happens to the workers. The Union is one layer, OSHA is another. True, they could be more flexible, but you can see why they wouldnt. Give in one, it becomes a fight to even keep the regulation in place. I have been fortunate enough that most of the people I work for are pretty cool about breaks happening at the right time, or often enough to be ok, but I know people who have been worked for 10 hours straight without a break. Thats outrageous, and when thats the abuse, you must forgive someone for going a bit too far in the other direction to attempt to protect their workers from that. Also, I think from an employer perspective, dealing with the union over a safety issue is probably preferable to having OSHA come in, shut the place down, and then fine everyone within sight...

 

[Grog12]

Esoteric-

I agree with 90% of what you say. What you have to realize is that every single union stagehand sees your existence as a threat to their livelihood. Because of that, they have developed a predatory approach to dealing with "scabs" like you.

They're going to always dislike you (like they do everyone who goes into non-union houses) and try to blacklist you like this fine gentlemen recommends:

As stated by VAN:
"I feel your opinions and positions are ignorant, uninformed, and dangerous. I pray to God someone posts your opinions at the local in Dallas."

Van, your threats are completely uncalled for, and unfortunately prove many of the points people who disagree with you make.

Why are none of the "Senior Members" on this site condemning this language???

The problem with your post, much as is the problem with posts on both sides of this arguement is that it generalizes the entirety of the IATSE.

I've worked with several members who in no way shape or form felt that us non union hands were a "threat to their livelihood." 9 times out of 10 they've tried to recruit me.

There are scumbag employers. Not all of them are.

There are scumbag union hands. Not all of them are.

There are scumbag non union hands. Not all of them are.

Lets go ahead and agree to realize this fact now.

 

[Footer]

2 things here...

I'm not in a union venue. I'm technically management, so even if we went union I would not. However, we still follow some of the rules. If we push a meal and don't get a full hour for dinner, venue pays for our meal AND we stay on the clock during the meal. Long story short, my executive director is not happy with me if we have to push a meal. Time and a half after 8 hours. Everyone crosses lines to get the show done. Now, that being said, none of my guys have health insurance that we help pay for. They can pay into the NYS retirement system if they want. We do occasionally hire union hands for overhire but we use them more as a labor hall.

Now, as far as the breaks go, there are ways around that. I have worked in a local one venue that we were 10 minutes away from finishing focus and coming up on break. I looked at the steward and asked if we could push 10 and take the break when the focus was over. We were having a good day, everyone was happy, and all the hands agreed and we pushed 10. One more reason every time I show up to a call at a new venue/crew I walk in with a dozen donuts for the first break. 6 bucks keeps everyone happy and I can bend rules here or there. Attitude is everything.

 

[MrsFooter]

Re: Joining USA 829

Now is that to state that every IATSE local is chock full of experienced stagehands, some with ETCP certification ?. Hardly. How many of these locals have enough work to allow it's members to gain the skill set found at the busiest locals ?. ****ed few typically. How many of these locals are made up of members that are moonlighting as stagehands, as they cannot support their families on the limited amount of work in the local. That's a typical scenario, sad to say.

I think this is where much of the prejudice against union hands has come from. I have worked with many union hands belonging to many different locals. Some of them were fantastic at what they did and worked incredibly hard for us, and I'd gladly work by their side any day. Some of them were literally picked up at the homeless shelter or halfway house 30 minutes before the call. (I wish I were making that up, but both of those situations actually happened at different houses I've worked at.) It all depends on the particular local. What gets frustrating is when instead of getting talented hands with great work ethics, (like many of you gentlemen on this forum,) we get a junkie who's never pushed a box or held a wrench before today and shot crack into his eyeballs 20 minutes ago.

Unfortunately, simply being a union member no longer speaks of the member's skill sets. Especially when you move away from the larger markets into areas that don't get a ton of work, the talent pool from which to pull from becomes smaller and more diluted. The guys that are good get snapped up by houses, often leaving a crew of guys that don't get enough work to really develop their skills. Which, in turn, makes people who are in the position to give those guys work hesitate to do so because their skills aren't developed. It's a vicious cycle.

 

[Esoteric]

Re: Joining USA 829

A couple of things:

1. I agree there are good guys and scumbags on both sides.
2. You get a half hour unpaid lunch at 6 hours in Texas. You also get 1 15 minute break at 4 hours and 1 at 8 hours. Those are paid. But there are no regulations on when they must be taken (except they can not end a shift).
3. If unions weren't so... Unbending they would probably get more work. That is another problem with unions, they make for an adversarial relationship rather than a cooperative one. It is built into their core.
4. I have only done one gig in Tennessee, so perhaps my evaluation of them was unfair. But I needed two electricians for 6 hours. First off I had to hire 3 guys. Secondly they were only going to work 4:45 minutes out of the 6 hours. Then they sent me 2 carps and a box pusher. I sent them back and they tried to tell me I owed the 4 hour minimum anyway. The whole thing was a farce (I never signed the labor contract, so I owed them nothing). I ended up hiring 2 local theater electricians who were union hands but never got a call from the labor manager and a local industrial electrician. And I am glad I did, I would hate to have heard what the Union hands would have said when we had to do a 500' wire pull. I am sure they would have walked off the job.
5. Shiben I hear what you are saying, but I have two responses.
a. Like workers in every other job they have multiple layers of protection. First of all they can look out for themselves. Don't like working conditions? Go somewhere else. Secondly, they can call OSHA. Down here at least OSHA LOVES to investigate.
b. They work in a dangerous industry. Sure. but they chose to work in that industry. Don't like the risk? Get into another line of work.
6. Also Shiben, again, unions create an adversarial atmosphere. That just isn't acceptable. You have to work with management (and labor) not against each other.
7. By the way my crews take frequent breaks, we sometimes take two meals (if we work through lunch and dinner), which I usually provide, I pay very well, everyone does what needs to be done to get the job done, we work in a spirit of cooperation to get the job done. I wish I had worked with some of the Stewards you guys have. Mine have all been completely unforgiving on the rules.

IMHO unions provide no value to anyone, promote an adversarial atmosphere, and I would not be upset if every union in the nation was broken.

 

[shiben]

Re: Joining USA 829

Unfortunately, simply being a union member no longer speaks of the member's skill sets. Especially when you move away from the larger markets into areas that don't get a ton of work, the talent pool from which to pull from becomes smaller and more diluted. The guys that are good get snapped up by houses, often leaving a crew of guys that don't get enough work to really develop their skills. Which, in turn, makes people who are in the position to give those guys work hesitate to do so because their skills aren't developed. It's a vicious cycle.

I would imagine being in a right to work state would make that sort of thing all the worse.

 

[Esoteric]

Re: Joining USA 829

I would imagine being in a right to work state would make that sort of thing all the worse.

Yup, because no one has to be in the union no one wants to.

 

[Footer]

Re: Joining USA 829

A labor union is there to protect their members. They are there to keep their members in work. They are there to train there members and keep their numbers strong. They are not there to be a labor company. Unfortunately, in our world many of the IA locals are more of a labor company then a union. When I was in Georgia, the IA local competed against two other labor companies (both of these other companies 1099'ed all of their employees). If you expect a great workforce, hire them for 40 hours a week for 50 weeks a year. If you just need a few guys now and then, you can't expect them to know everything. This is true with IA and outside of IA. Just looking down my call list, I have 60 guys on it. 10 are stellar. 20 are great. 20 can do the work. The last 10 I would rather have my cat come in and work then call them. Same thing goes for IA. However, they keep the 50 guys working and give the guy who calls once in a blue moon the 10. If you start hiring guys constantly, then your going to get better guys. Also remember your dealing with a labor union, not a labor company. If you want to deal with a labor company, call your local temp labor supplier.

 

[Esoteric]

Re: Joining USA 829

Good post Footer. Which is why I prefer to deal with companies that only have 20 exceptional hands. If they don't have anyone then they don't have anyone and I call the next company. If all the good guys are out of hands then I call a day labor company, but they don't charge me $25/hr. They don't send me trash and try to pawn it off (and charge me as much) as the crown jewels.

 

[SteveB]

Re: Joining USA 829

Good post Footer. Which is why I prefer to deal with companies that only have 20 exceptional hands. If they don't have anyone then they don't have anyone and I call the next company. If all the good guys are out of hands then I call a day labor company, but they don't charge me $25/hr. They don't send me trash and try to pawn it off (and charge me as much) as the crown jewels.

Esoteric

I could not help but wonder, having read all of your posts here on this subject, that possibly your anti-union attitude comes off during your dealings with the IATSE local ?, and that might be part of the problem with the attitudes of both the BA at the local in terms of who they send you, as well as any attitude and/or work ethics the crew gives you.

I'm, speculating off course, but humans are pretty good at picking up vibes and possibly they get a big negative off you.

Mind that I don't know you except here on CB so could be totally off-base, but throughout all this sometimes heated discussion, I could not help wondering just how much real effort you put in, actually trying to make the union situation work. Have you ever sat down with the BA and discussed your issues with the crew and work rules ?. The BA's are there to get their members work, and the attitude of the IA International office on down is generally to bend over backwards to get their members work. Many. many locals, including IA 1 here in NYC have contracts with venues that some of the older members would shake their heads at, what with pay scale, relaxed hours, coffee breaks, overtime, no minimums, etc... our facility including. I know for a fact that Jim Claffey, currently the head at Local One, worked our contract negotiations to the extent that our Prod. Manager, who had a lot of prior experience negotiating IA contracts, was actually surprised at how favorable the contract was for management. The Local wanted it's foot in the door and understood they were dealing with a state agency that was used to playing hardball with it's unions, thus there is and was a big reality check that Local One was not going to get the same contract they had at the Met. Opera. That is not unusual in today's economic environment and was the reason I stated that IATSE was one of the better unions in terms if understanding the economic realities.

Just food for thought about what comes across as a blatant anti-union attitude in a business where union representation has generally been a good thing.

Especially for designers, as the OP was seemingly happy to have joined.

 

[mstaylor]

Re: Joining USA 829

I run a non union crew, one for my home arena, the other for a local company. Many of the guys overlap because we are in a small area. A few of my guys make a living at it, most others have regular jobs and work for me as needed. I have some that have been with me for 10 to 25 years, others work a few shows and are never seen again.
Our standard work rules are 4 hour minimums, a midmorning break and a midafternoon break, both 15 minutes. Lunch is between four to five hours, one hour nonpaid if they go offsite, 1/2 hour paid if catered. All that is flexable, we let the show take the lead unless they get stupid about it, then I insist on the break. Many times the breaks are staggered if that is what the show wants. Some union houses insist the the room goes dark during lunch, we have no such rule. My general rule is once the riggers go in the air, they stay in the air. If they take a break, they do so on the steel. For a normal show, they do not break for meals until they are done.
I have a mix of very good, experienced guys to good hands to box pushers. I make no secret of that when I advance a show. When I go to another building, I assume the same thing is true there.

 

[Esoteric]

Re: Joining USA 829

I haven't had this attitude always. It has taken years to get to this point. I was on the IA call list for over 8 years. I was an apprentice rigger. I am always cordial with those supplying labor to me. My vendors all love me. I am always looking for solutions.

On the other hand I used to love some of the stupid rules when I was on a union call. I once made $100 an hour because of all the penalties I racked up. But now that I am management, I see the damage they do. I think I have a unique view having seen both sides of the situation. If I went back to being labor, I would not join the IA.

The answer I always got from BAs? Those are the rules. Take them or leave them. You don't want (or do want) _______________? Call a day labor company. Sure we will send you 3 electricians (and 2 carps and a box pusher show up). The stewards I have dealt with are just as bad. You want a carp to plug in that light sitting under a piece of scenery 6 inches from his hand? Nope, the electrician has to come down off of his 30' ladder and do it.

I was not always like this. The IA has made me this way.

Of course we have really gotten OT as none of this really applies to USA.

 

[shiben]

Re: Joining USA 829

I haven't had this attitude always. It has taken years to get to this point. I was on the IA call list for over 8 years. I was an apprentice rigger. I am always cordial with those supplying labor to me. My vendors all love me. I am always looking for solutions.

On the other hand I used to love some of the stupid rules when I was on a union call. I once made $100 an hour because of all the penalties I racked up. But now that I am management, I see the damage they do. I think I have a unique view having seen both sides of the situation. If I went back to being labor, I would not join the IA.

The answer I always got from BAs? Those are the rules. Take them or leave them. You don't want (or do want) _______________? Call a day labor company. Sure we will send you 3 electricians (and 2 carps and a box pusher show up). The stewards I have dealt with are just as bad. You want a carp to plug in that light sitting under a piece of scenery 6 inches from his hand? Nope, the electrician has to come down off of his 30' ladder and do it.

I was not always like this. The IA has made me this way.

Of course we have really gotten OT as none of this really applies to USA.

I can see that. My personal feeling is that it all comes back to Right To Work rules. If the union is busted, why bust their ass to make contracts that make sense for both parties? They have to offer some advantage to their workers, and so they do that by being hard liners on the rules. What incentive is there to not do it? Now, if the RTW rules were not there, you might be looking at a situation where the union would want to organize your house, and do so in a way that worked with you on it. If they are forced to just be another labor contractor but one that relies on having members, not always working, just dues paying, they need to offer their members something to keep them around, and that is strict adherence to the rules.

 

[Esoteric]

I see what you are getting at Shiben, but I think you are blaming the market when the unions themselves are to blame. In 90% of industries (entertainment being one of them) the free market provides all the protection a worker needs. When you add the additional protection provided by OSHA then unions become useless and if anything counterproductive. Especially for members that must pay regardless if they work or not.

As far as what the union has to offer to stay in business, who cares? If they can't provide enough benefits for their members to stay in business they should go out of business. Really, the only reason unions are still around is governmental protection (in the form of closed shops). And if slavish adherence to the rules is all the have to offer, I don't think they would last very long.

Unfortunately there are enough "union guys" and governmental protections that unions stick around even though they have long outlived their usefulness. I would like to see how unions would do if closed shops were abolished across the nation. Without that protection I wonder if unions could function?

I know there are a lot of cities in Texas where the unions are constantly operating in the red or just in the black.

Without a closed shop you can work more, get paid better, and still have all the benefits without being in a union. They just can't compete. Which is why all the best technicians down here are nonunion freelancers and work for the production houses, while the union gets the leftovers (which explains why calls are so bad out here, heck as recently as 2004 in order to meet a call for WWE RAW it took the combined San Antonio and Austin Locals PLUS temps).

Lets abolish closed shops and allow everyone to compete in an open, free market.

 

[DuckJordan]

I see what you are getting at Shiben, but I think you are blaming the market when the unions themselves are to blame. In 90% of industries (entertainment being one of them) the free market provides all the protection a worker needs. When you add the additional protection provided by OSHA then unions become useless and if anything counterproductive. Especially for members that must pay regardless if they work or not.

As far as what the union has to offer to stay in business, who cares? If they can't provide enough benefits for their members to stay in business they should go out of business. Really, the only reason unions are still around is governmental protection (in the form of closed shops). And if slavish adherence to the rules is all the have to offer, I don't think they would last very long.

Unfortunately there are enough "union guys" and governmental protections that unions stick around even though they have long outlived their usefulness. I would like to see how unions would do if closed shops were abolished across the nation. Without that protection I wonder if unions could function?

I know there are a lot of cities in Texas where the unions are constantly operating in the red or just in the black.

Without a closed shop you can work more, get paid better, and still have all the benefits without being in a union. They just can't compete. Which is why all the best technicians down here are nonunion freelancers and work for the production houses, while the union gets the leftovers (which explains why calls are so bad out here, heck as recently as 2004 in order to meet a call for WWE RAW it took the combined San Antonio and Austin Locals PLUS temps).

Lets abolish closed shops and allow everyone to compete in an open, free market.

I agree with most things but when you say all the best techs are non union i have to call the BS flag on, I know of at least 2 Union members from that area who are working broadway shows. Oh and btw could easily beat you in knowledge and skill in almost any part of the industry. Unions did have their time, But when states started enforcing labor laws. (SD is also a right to work state) there really isn't a place for it.

I know the local 220 union here in sioux falls is on the verge of bankruptcy and utter collapse due mostly by companies having issues spending $17 a head when an average worker here makes 13-16$ for skilled trades. OH by the way that 17$ that the union charges per head I get about $11 from on top of having to pay dues on what I actually make. I'm not a card holder and considering they work in about 3 venues around town. That are very likely to be shut out of soon no reason for it. I also know for a fact 80% of the union guys know little to nothing about shows. They are mostly neck down guys. Who can't even figure out how to push a **** road case. I've worked 3 events with them. There are about 3 guys who know what they are doing. And thats out of a pool of 20 active members.

This same union is responsible several times for filing for bankruptcy because of the "head" decided it was okay to line his pockets with the union dues. I'm sorry but this is getting more and more common. Yeah there are a few bad apples the problem is, unlike apples when one goes bad it attracts others.

I don't feel unions fill a role anymore. You can get life insurance for the same amount as the union charges on your own personal time, you can get more contracts and work days by not being union, and workers comp here at least in SD is required by the owners of the company you are working under. If you are freelancing at a certain venue I work in and you get hurt on the job, we are required to pay you workman's comp.

Sorry if I piss some of you off but when I looked at joining the union here and read how much I'd be paying in and what I'd be getting out. Its better that I find my own work.

 

[mstaylor]

I agree with most things but when you say all the best techs are non union i have to call the BS flag on, I know of at least 2 Union members from that area who are working broadway shows. Oh and btw could easily beat you in knowledge and skill in almost any part of the industry.

I know many guys touring that are union, many were not when they got the job. Many guys get cards once they get on the road, then move company to company from there.
Companies like Feld and Troika not only help you get a card, they cross train and send techs to schools to improve. I have several guys that went that route, including my son.

 

[Esoteric]

Yeah Jordan I wasn't clear. I know a few local guys who are great and have their cards, but they hardly ever work under their cards. I always get them through a local labor house.

There might even be a couple of great card carrying, IA tattoo sporting, true believer union hands here, but I have never had the pleasure to meet him. I was using absolutes for emphasis. Of course there are good union hands and bad nonunion hands, but here, good union hands are a small, small minority.

As I am sure you know though, working on Broadway is not a measure of skill or knowledge. I know some dumb as rocks guys that work on Broadway because they knew someone.

 

[meatpopsicle]

I see what you are getting at Shiben, but I think you are blaming the market when the unions themselves are to blame. In 90% of industries (entertainment being one of them) the free market provides all the protection a worker needs. When you add the additional protection provided by OSHA then unions become useless and if anything counterproductive. Especially for members that must pay regardless if they work or not.

Lets abolish closed shops and allow everyone to compete in an open, free market.

I take issue with this statement. I don't know about SD or Texas but letting the freemarket provide all the protection that a worker needs here in NY is a recipe for being taken advantage of. I don't see the freemarket making sure that my pension and healthplan are paid into nor that they are protected at all. In how many industries have corporations re-organized specifically in order to get out from under contracts that they have obligations too both for current workers and retirees? Kodak is an example here (one appropriate for Gern and I)

When I was working Non-Union for a major cable network I worked on several TV shows, the last of which was very successful (until the star took a powder). All during production the producer lamented that she was afraid that the Union might come and organize the show. The rates were the same 5 years after the 1st show I worked on because "that's all this network will pay" Having the union come down would "end the show for the network". After the second season the network ponied up a 4 million dollar signing bonus for the star and calculated that there was a 10 million payoff for him in merchandising. We got, as department heads, a 25.00 per week raise. There were no benefits. That show is still being sold in re-runs and is still making the network money.

My first TV show in the union I made twice as much money as a 3rd than I did as a non-union Department head, plus there were contributions to my healthcare plan that I got through the union and towards a pension for my retirement. I looked at that check and realized that I had been hosed by the prior show. In my end of the business its the IA that is looking out for workers and their futures. No one else.

Still, I see a major difference in the experiences that different people have with different locals around the country. Certainly the work rules and compensation for Gern and I are different than a union stagehand in the middle of the country. Markets are different and locals are different. That is certain. It makes it harder to talk about work rules. Sort of Apples and oranges (or bad apples and oranges if you like).

And finally a word about OSHA. In my experience they have offered no protection before the fact to my industry. They might be called if there were an accident and then fines might be levied. But prior to the fact? Not once here. Its laughable to bring up OSHA as a protection to workers here in my end of the business. Truthfully the only input to safety is the Network safety guy that comes around from NBC/Uni. And that's to protect them from litigation. Still there is more effort put into education on Sexual Harassment in the workplace than into safety.