Just a thought... POE Lighting?

[rsmentele]

As I spent the weekend hanging the plot for my next show. Working in a theater with no DMX infrastructure to speak of, I began to ponder... (scary, I know)

Numerous manufacturers are beginning to integrate network data connectivity into their fixtures. If you had a full rig of networked fixtures, that would be great, but in my case it was half and half, so all DMX it was...

ANYWAY, I began to think about network connectivity with the increasing capabilities of POE and the reduced power consumption of LED fixtures.

The POE+ standard is starting to be utilized more and more, and that brings with it the increase power supply capabilities over CAT cable. I am sure that that capability will continue to grow a little more. (Not too much though because of the issues with running power over thin gauge cable) I think it stands at 25w per device at this point? with a max of 100w? Thats just from memory, so please correct me if I am wrong!

So my theoretical query is:
Do you think there will ever be a point in which an LED (or other future super efficient sourced fixture) gets to a low enough power draw that will allow it to become POE capable?

There are other ways to send power and data over a single cable that would make wiring a rig much easier, but with a fully networked system instead of DMX, you get a lot more capability control wise.

Anyway, just a thought to put out there and see what the world thinks, and if anyone else feels like it would be useful.

 

[Rob]

There is already a lot of this in the office environment. Check out Cisco Digital Ceiling.
PoE is nominally 48v. The most popularly used standard currently is 802.3af which supplies 12.9w to the PD. 802.3at (commonly known as PoE+) can supply 25.5w at the PD. 802.3bt is a newer standard that raises the voltage to 57v and can supply about 70w to the PD. That is quite a bit of power - perhaps even enough power for theatrical lights in very small spaces (12' ceilings). Remember, LED lighting is additive, so to get a deep blue you don't need to pump a lot of energy into a white lights and filter out all the reds and greens like you do with tungsten. And white LED light is just blue LEDs with phosphors. Things will only get better. Watch this space.

 

[sk8rsdad]

The theoretical maximum for LED efficiency for a monochromatic white source is 683 lm/W. So 70W might theoretically allow for 47,000 lumens which would be very bright for a small area (1 sq. meter), or really dim to wash a typical stage. The theoretical maximum is unattainable today both in terms of LED efficiency and transmission losses in CAT 5/6/6E cable. Even allowing for 70W per circuit, the power supply in the switch would have to be really, really beefy.

 

[icewolf08]

The fundamental problem is that POE only functions in star topology. You cannot "daisy-chain" POE devices. So, even if your fixture had a built in switch, you can't really pass POE out of it. Ultimately, this means way more cable as every unit would require a home run.

 

[Amiers]

The fundamental problem is that POE only functions in star topology. You cannot "daisy-chain" POE devices. So, even if your fixture had a built in switch, you can't really pass POE out of it. Ultimately, this means way more cable as every unit would require a home run.

Gotta ask the question why? They make POE switches with passthrough ports

Why couldn’t a fixture have the same?

 

[Chris15]

Sure, there are passthrough switches, but the output has less available power than the input because somewhere you need to get the power to run the switch...
You could not practically daisy more that 1, if any, fixtures depending on the actual power consumption numbers...

 

[Harrison Hohnholt]

Gotta ask the question why? They make POE switches with passthrough ports



Why couldn’t a fixture have the same?

The issue you are going to run into is power. Usually a switch of this size is for a very small network with a single AP. Not even the biggest AP can draw 20W. This Switch has a max of 68 watts of POE and draws 30W. You are almost maxed with the one AP. It still isn't a bad idea because there is still the possibility of power being distributed so just drop POE switches that take AC and can output more. I agree with icewolf star would be annoying.

 

[rsmentele]

Obviously, there are a lot of reasons why this might not work today... but who knows how technology will change in the next few years. 5 years ago, who would have guessed that we would have projectors that run off Lasers, and look at where we are now!

LED's are continually getting more and more efficient. A moving head may not be POE capable because of the additional electronics, but a static fixture? Possibly!

 

[RickR]

I'm intrigued by a new power line carrier system by Lumenpulse. http://www.lumenpulse.com/en/produc...0.1002468556.1511989858-2034391050.1498614181

Of course wireless is rapidly getting better. I see either of these out stripping POE in the 'race' to replace DMX.

Another interesting possibility is DC power. This is also happening in ceilings today. All LEDS and movers have AC-DC converters. And DC is far more friendly to PLC. So replace the dimmer with a monster DC supply, use the existing wires and convince light manufacturers to provide raw DC connections. Maybe not so easy to get started, but very efficient!

 

[Amiers]

Sure, there are passthrough switches, but the output has less available power than the input because somewhere you need to get the power to run the switch...
You could not practically daisy more that 1, if any, fixtures depending on the actual power consumption numbers...

The issue you are going to run into is power. Usually a switch of this size is for a very small network with a single AP. Not even the biggest AP can draw 20W. This Switch has a max of 68 watts of POE and draws 30W. You are almost maxed with the one AP. It still isn't a bad idea because there is still the possibility of power being distributed so just drop POE switches that take AC and can output more. I agree with icewolf star would be annoying.

By no means did I say it was an actual thing but it can certainly be a possibility. The what iffers of the world say if you can think it you can build it.

Why not have a big POE switch at one end that can feed a whole electric with led movers/pars that have a mini POE passthrough power port that you can daisy chain through.

 

[FMEng]

Switching power supplies. Big, high current, switching power supplies that love to go ZORCH! Power supplies with noisy fans. Fans that coat heat sinks in dirt and bearings that seize up every 13 months. Power supplies that cost $1,000 per module that cannot be repaired.

If you power LED lights by 120 VAC, a power supply failure results in one dead light. If you power an LED light by POE, a power supply failure results in a whole electric going dark.

No, high power switching supplies belong in an environment designed for them. Clean, cool, and where noise doesn't matter. Putting them on electrics in a hot, dirty theater is a recipe for disaster.

 

[JonCarter]

If POI takes off I can foresee plugging strips on lighting battens with CAT6 pigtails every 2', a power supply worth, say, 30-40 A of 48VDC, and a network switch on one end with one, CAT6 cable and one 30A 120VAC cable feeding the whole thing.

 

[ship]

Way back when... some incandescent filament lamps used to cause problems with filament humm in sound gear, that problem was fixed later in most Stage and Studio lamps. I have a show coming back later this week with a few 8' LED light sticks that have 48' of RGB tape each placed all over the stage on stage. Constant complaints about the humm from the electronic field generated. Not something that can be fixed short of going digital node sticks at a huge cost and total re-design of the sticks. Field could not be fixed by changing decoders or even creating a ground/drain to ground bond net around the stick.

So a question/concern perhaps to factor in to the concept, (but probably easily dispelled) would be the amount of electronics hum now introduced into the sound system.

On another project, I'm cursing but R&D'ing now, I have some pendant lights which are being both powered and rigged by way of two new fangled light duty hoists which also send 4 channels of 1/2 amp per channel 24vdc down the hoist cable ribbon wire power inside it. Hoist and LED control are both artnet. That's ok in that most pro-grade LED tape uses 24vdc, but way low on amperage for the same. Like pulling nails to get even that info out of the hoist supplier, and very limited to me now in what I can light the pendant with. What seemed enough power for the hoist company is very limited for me... this much less if two hoists can run at the same speed.

A specified voltage and amount of amperage seriously limits what I can do in lighting this unique pendant light. Will post about this related on a separate topic, but doing this type of thing for concept seriously limits the flexibility of what you can do on stage. Want a 120v chandileer, black light fixture in the house, say a smoke, bubble or snow or confetti, or just put a real Leko in the house... or on stage, where is the Ethernet connector for it? Simplifying but 120/208v + data is a lot more flexible in my mind at least. If at amusement park or arch. install, great thing. For the inventive art of theater I think a bad thing.

Glad I have a count down of like 17.5 years until I retire... The elder generation gear is so much easier to figure out and specialize in. During changing times, be careful what you wish for. Might make for a very static what you can do

 

[Amiers]

Way back when... some incandescent filament lamps used to cause problems with filament humm in sound gear, that problem was fixed later in most Stage and Studio lamps. I have a show coming back later this week with a few 8' LED light sticks that have 48' of RGB tape each placed all over the stage on stage. Constant complaints about the humm from the electronic field generated. Not something that can be fixed short of going digital node sticks at a huge cost and total re-design of the sticks. Field could not be fixed by changing decoders or even creating a ground/drain to ground bond net around the stick.

So a question/concern perhaps to factor in to the concept, (but probably easily dispelled) would be the amount of electronics hum now introduced into the sound system.

On another project, I'm cursing but R&D'ing now, I have some pendant lights which are being both powered and rigged by way of two new fangled light duty hoists which also send 4 channels of 1/2 amp per channel 24vdc down the hoist cable ribbon wire power inside it. Hoist and LED control are both artnet. That's ok in that most pro-grade LED tape uses 24vdc, but way low on amperage for the same. Like pulling nails to get even that info out of the hoist supplier, and very limited to me now in what I can light the pendant with. What seemed enough power for the hoist company is very limited for me... this much less if two hoists can run at the same speed.

A specified voltage and amount of amperage seriously limits what I can do in lighting this unique pendant light. Will post about this related on a separate topic, but doing this type of thing for concept seriously limits the flexibility of what you can do on stage. Want a 120v chandileer, black light fixture in the house, say a smoke, bubble or snow or confetti, or just put a real Leko in the house... or on stage, where is the Ethernet connector for it? Simplifying but 120/208v + data is a lot more flexible in my mind at least. If at amusement park or arch. install, great thing. For the inventive art of theater I think a bad thing.

Glad I have a count down of like 17.5 years until I retire... The elder generation gear is so much easier to figure out and specialize in. During changing times, be careful what you wish for. Might make for a very static what you can do

I alone cannot change the world, but I can cast a stone across the waters to create many ripples.
Mother Teresa

Change is the opposite of static and I believe that even if you think of something and it fails that is still progress for someone else in the future to know not what to do and improve on it.
-Me

 

[ship]

Money is also a hamper to the timeline of development.

 

[Lyle Williams]

There is no technology bridge to get to this POE place.

If you are running your fixtures on ethernet you need so much more power than POE can deliver. And you probably have fixtures in service for ten years.

A different connectivity scheme that just works for new little fixtures but doesn't work on existing cable? That's got to be a non-starter.

 

[back_ache]

I think as we have more and more lights and light-tapes that are hungry for channels having them directly support Ethernet (rather than needing a gateway) will make sense, if they can also run with just the power Ethernet can supply then why not? Electricians are not get cheaper! I think there is certainly a market theatrical specific ethernet accessories such as a hub/switch that supply the full potential power to all port simultaneously or a switch you can hang on a pipe.

 

[Amiers]

There is no technology bridge to get to this POE place.

If you are running your fixtures on ethernet you need so much more power than POE can deliver. And you probably have fixtures in service for ten years.

A different connectivity scheme that just works for new little fixtures but doesn't work on existing cable? That's got to be a non-starter.

There was no technology in our market for LEDs til someone pushed to Make it happen.

If someone can find a way to run fixtures for the fraction of power of current fixtures believe me it will happen.

Don’t believe me go out to Middleton to ETC walk into Fred’s Office and look at his whiteboard. You will see all sorts of ideas. That could potentially work.

 

[Lyle Williams]

To understand how a technology evolves, you need to look at the wider ecosystem of other technologies that relate to it. Their service life, interoperability, and purchase frequency are key.

If POE lighting is to evolve, it needs to happen in a different industry.

 

[RonHebbard]

To understand how a technology evolves, you need to look at the wider ecosystem of other technologies that relate to it. Their service life, interoperability, and purchase frequency are key.

If POE lighting is to evolve, it needs to happen in a different industry.

@Lyle Williams I'll agree with "Other industries in addition to ours" but I don't agree it has to happen in another industry BEFORE our industry is permitted to scramble aboard.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.